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Save percentages, 1967-68 to 1978-79

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Old
11-03-2009, 11:52 AM
  #26
TANK200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
He's got a point. the difference in sv% between these guys and the league average was the type of thing you only saw frequently from the likes of Roy and Hasek.
If that was his point, then it was a good one. But the way it was stated made it sound as if he was talking about raw numbers making these 1970s goalies better that the top guys in the 1990s, an argument which is comparable to the exaggerated one that I gave.

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11-03-2009, 05:28 PM
  #27
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SV%

Quote:
Originally Posted by TANK200 View Post
If that was his point, then it was a good one. But the way it was stated made it sound as if he was talking about raw numbers making these 1970s goalies better that the top guys in the 1990s, an argument which is comparable to the exaggerated one that I gave.
Part of the overall picture that I was trying to convey across eras. Within the context of the 1990's goalies my point would be - let's not get carried away by what was seen recently,the elite goalies from other eras merit much greater consideration then they are getting.

SV% is a relatively new stat that is paradoxically under appreciated and over rated. As the numbers are mined for the earlier eras we will get a better picture of how it describes and explains goalies strengths and weaknesses. Personally I see potential where previously I was somewhat skeptical BUT I also recognize that a lot of work has to be done.

A few examples of this. Balancing a goalies in game SV% against shoot-out.By period, by game situation???. Across eras - how is the pre slapshot era to be viewed when a large majority of the shots were from the prime scoring area - slot and in close? How is SV% to be balanced against GPG - is a .900 in a low scoring era the same as a .900 in a high scoring era. Just a small sampling of the potential and obstacles.

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12-22-2011, 10:17 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
In this season, Gerry Cheevers' minutes match the official record, but his GA are one higher. I checked the game sheets and they add up correctly, at least in this book.
are you referring to a discrepancy in '76?

hockeydb has 41 GA with 422 saves (463 SA) in 900 minutes for cheevers. .911 sv%

you posted 41 GA on 412 SA (.9005) in 900 minutes.



i think it would also be a good idea to sticky these sv% threads.

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12-22-2011, 10:24 AM
  #29
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The unofficial save percentage numbers certainly enrich our understanding, but they need to be taken with an even bigger grain of salt that the current official ones, in my opinion.

As an unofficial stat, I would imagine that "saves" was no more standardized than "hits" is today.

If someone wants to link to the other save percentage threads, we could consolidate them.

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12-22-2011, 10:37 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
He's got a point. the difference in sv% between these guys and the league average was the type of thing you only saw frequently from the likes of Roy and Hasek.
I think a large part of it is that the quality of the "average" goalie was at an all-time low in the 1970s with rapid expansion, the WHA, and no influx of European talent. Also, the disperity in teams (godawful teams are going to brutalize their goalie stats) was a factor.

Not to mention that today, goalie coaching has become a science, and if we know anything about good coaching, it narrows the gap between those with natural talent and those without.

I think it's clear that Esposito, Parent, and Dryden were the best regular season goalies of the decade, but I don't think comparing their save percentages vs. the league average means the same as today.

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12-22-2011, 11:33 AM
  #31
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flyershistory had cheevers at .900 in '76.

421 SA, 42 GA.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=675699




Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The unofficial save percentage numbers certainly enrich our understanding, but they need to be taken with an even bigger grain of salt that the current official ones, in my opinion.

As an unofficial stat, I would imagine that "saves" was no more standardized than "hits" is today.

If someone wants to link to the other save percentage threads, we could consolidate them.
agree

sv% stats are different in different sources. flyershistory's posts have slightly different numbers than hockeydb or 70s.

we also don't know PP vs ES vs SH shots and saves, or times SH. parity is another issue for interpretation.




'58: http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=675698

'76: http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=675699

'68: http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=675694

'69: http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=675697


'70 and '77-'82: http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=629329

'79: http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=156557

'80-'82: http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=683016

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Old
12-22-2011, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I think a large part of it is that the quality of the "average" goalie was at an all-time low in the 1970s with rapid expansion, the WHA, and no influx of European talent. Also, the disperity in teams (godawful teams are going to brutalize their goalie stats) was a factor.

Not to mention that today, goalie coaching has become a science, and if we know anything about good coaching, it narrows the gap between those with natural talent and those without.

I think it's clear that Esposito, Parent, and Dryden were the best regular season goalies of the decade, but I don't think comparing their save percentages vs. the league average means the same as today.
that needed to be said in this thread! Thanks! I was thinking that the lack of parity between teams could throw these numbers all over the place, but that no one would probably listen to me. Glad you said it.

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12-22-2011, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
Looking at this and the information 70's posted (for the end of Worsleys career) I still feel he is highly underrated.

He played on some AWFUL Rangers teams and without his Save % data it is hard to show how well he actually played. (Think Luongo playing for the Panthers) He then plays for a stacked Montreal team (at the end of his career) and gets no credit, because of how good the team was.

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12-22-2011, 12:26 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Looking at this and the information 70's posted (for the end of Worsleys career) I still feel he is highly underrated.

He played on some AWFUL Rangers teams and without his Save % data it is hard to show how well he actually played. (Think Luongo playing for the Panthers) He then plays for a stacked Montreal team (at the end of his career) and gets no credit, because of how good the team was.
hockeydb has sv% numbers from '55-'67.

worsley:
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...y.php?pid=5797

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12-22-2011, 12:47 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Given the difference in goalie equipment,lack of goalie coaches or video and the one goalie system until the mid 1960's, the pre 1980 goalies produced remarkable results.
And considering the equipment changes over the years, most goalies today simply play a positioning game. If they are in the right position, most of the time the puck will hit them because of the generous equipment. The difference between the decent, good and great goalies today is the quality of shots the defense is allowing and ability to ad lib ala Tim Thomas. Which is really not any different than past eras. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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12-22-2011, 01:00 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
hockeydb has sv% numbers from '55-'67.

worsley:
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...y.php?pid=5797

By all means i'm not trying to say Worsley > or = to Hall, but I did a small exercise compiling the top 7 save % for both from 1955-1970 (Min 15 games played)


Worsley Average = 0.9227
Hall Average = 0.92214


Yes that includes Worsleys 1966-67 season in which he played 18 games and had a save % of 0.950, but if you exclude that his average would be 0.9172857.



I'm not trying to bad mouth Hall or even say they are equal. But i'm convinced that worsley gets underappreciated because he played on those terrible Rangers teams for the majority of his career (Prime)


An honest question between the two. Who would you consider a better playoff goalie?


Yes, I know Hall was voted on the AST way more, but team success plays a major role (especially for goalies) in AS voting.

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12-22-2011, 01:14 PM
  #37
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I don't know that I'd say that you need any more salt to go with the unofficial stats than with the official ones.

I wanted to extend Roy's home/road split data back to the beginning, Hockey-reference only goes back to 87-88, so I went through the game logs for 85-86 and 86-87.

I noticed right away that minutes and shots from the logs didn't match his season totals at http://hockeygoalies.org/bio/roy.html, and I did find some errors/typos that make the shots match using http://hsp.flyershistory.com/. There is some data missing in games with multiple goalies playing, but I didn't find any logs where the minutes didn't match.

I then found http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8451033 which matches the minutes I got from the game logs, and doesn't match the career shot totals either at Dr No's site or http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/r/roypa01.html.

Minutes don't match in 85-86, 86-87 or 87-88, and shots don't in 88-89, or 89-90, with 2 more missing from his career total (possibly they left out his 84-85 shots).

The NHL stats are not that reliable. Case in point: John Jr. Hanna officially played 198 games, but the NHL gave him the pension payout for playing 200 games. Even the NHL doesn't go by the official stats.

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12-22-2011, 07:12 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The unofficial save percentage numbers certainly enrich our understanding, but they need to be taken with an even bigger grain of salt that the current official ones, in my opinion.

As an unofficial stat, I would imagine that "saves" was no more standardized than "hits" is today.
I don't know that it became any more standardized after it became an official stat. Player shot totals had been counted for a long time before that. The only difference was that in 1982 they finally decided to track the same stat for goalies as shots against, instead of only doing it with players as shots for. I don't believe anything changed as far as the league deciding what constituted a shot, it was always at the discretion of the home scorekeeper.

Of course there was always some variance from arena to arena, and allegations of bias against certain teams doctoring the shot totals to make their team look better, but that didn't change in 1982.

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Old
12-22-2011, 07:18 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by reckoning View Post
I don't know that it became any more standardized after it became an official stat. Player shot totals had been counted for a long time before that. The only difference was that in 1982 they finally decided to track the same stat for goalies as shots against, instead of only doing it with players as shots for. I don't believe anything changed as far as the league deciding what constituted a shot, it was always at the discretion of the home scorekeeper.

Of course there was always some variance from arena to arena, and allegations of bias against certain teams doctoring the shot totals to make their team look better, but that didn't change in 1982.
Okay. Fair enough.

I'm particularly skeptical of shot totals that show the 60s Leafs dynasty allowing the most shots on goal in the league.

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12-23-2011, 06:24 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Okay. Fair enough.

I'm particularly skeptical of shot totals that show the 60s Leafs dynasty allowing the most shots on goal in the league.
A home/road comparison could answer that in anyone has the figures. Awhile back, overpass posted some data which showed that some teams over the past decade (including New Jersey) had a significantly lower shots against total at home than would be expected compared to their road numbers. It's possible that something similar, but in reverse, was happening to Toronto. The Leafs always had high shots against numbers even through the 70s and 80s.

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Old
12-24-2011, 03:19 AM
  #41
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based on total shots and total saves in their careers, I have Hall at .917 and Worsley at .913. Still, that is fairly close considering the gap between their reputations.

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12-24-2011, 04:40 AM
  #42
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It's interesting to see the top goalies in that era being above .900 consistently.

As a Bruins fan, it was also interesting to see that during the rollicking Orr/Esposito era, Cheevers and Johnston often had to face 33 shots per night.

One thing that makes me curious is that during the late 80s, other that Patrick Roy, it was fairly rare for a goalie to be in the .900's.

Was this due to the wide open era? A great influx of Gretzky led offensive players? Or just not as many top end goalies?

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