HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

The Origins & History of Fighting in Hockey

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-22-2011, 08:01 PM
  #51
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 8,815
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by cam042686 View Post
Actually I do have knowledge of hockey history - I am a sports historian having written for the CFL, Argos, and 2 books - including one on the 1974 Canada/Soviet Summit which has done very well. How many books have you written?

I'll accept your point regarding the police. Point well taken. But how am I rediculous? Becouse I talk about blows to the head. Not one person here who supports fighting has touched that one - the reason being is you can't. The medical evidence is there and you can't dispute it. And if fighting is needed why isn't it needed in the playoffs?
Man, you're a hell of a speller for an author.

Dennis Bonvie is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-22-2011, 10:35 PM
  #52
cam042686
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Hamilton, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 350
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Man, you're a hell of a speller for an author.
Point well taken lol.... You get lazy using MS Word and spell check.

cam042686 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-07-2014, 08:06 PM
  #53
Fred Taylor
The Cyclone
 
Fred Taylor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,118
vCash: 500
The origin of fighting in hockey

When did fighting first start to become part of the game?

Fred Taylor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-07-2014, 08:22 PM
  #54
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Casablanca
Country: Morocco
Posts: 24,074
vCash: 500
Heres an interesting & edifying article on just that... http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/11/sp...pagewanted=all

Killion is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-07-2014, 08:28 PM
  #55
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 20,094
vCash: 500
We are the rare sport where you are carrying a weapon in your hand while you are playing, if that answers anything. Somewhere along the way you had to learn to defend yourself without using that weapon.

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-07-2014, 08:53 PM
  #56
Mayor Bee
\/me_____you\/
 
Mayor Bee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 15,446
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
We are the rare sport where you are carrying a weapon in your hand while you are playing, if that answers anything. Somewhere along the way you had to learn to defend yourself without using that weapon.
Baseball has the same; how many times has it been used as a weapon?

Football players wear weapons atop their heads; how many times does a fight happen in a game?

Mayor Bee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-07-2014, 09:33 PM
  #57
Iain Fyffe
Hockey fact-checker
 
Iain Fyffe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Fredericton, NB
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,074
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
Baseball has the same; how many times has it been used as a weapon?

Football players wear weapons atop their heads; how many times does a fight happen in a game?
Baseball's not a great rebuttal, since it's not a contact sport.

But how many times does a fight happen in other contact sports that use sticks? Hurling is a sport with a lot of contact and collisions, and their sticks make much better weapons than hockey sticks as well, not as long and unwieldy. And yet, fighting is not "part of the game" in hurling.

Fighting in hockey is a cultural construct. The culture of much of North American ice hockey promotes fighting; it is not a necessary result of a contact game played with sticks. It's a result of believing that fighting is acceptable, that it may even have a strategic use.

Iain Fyffe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-07-2014, 09:40 PM
  #58
Iain Fyffe
Hockey fact-checker
 
Iain Fyffe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Fredericton, NB
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,074
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Heres an interesting & edifying article on just that... http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/11/sp...pagewanted=all
Gopnik's theory falls short with respect to fighting. It explains violence in hockey as a result of cultural tensions, but the earliest years of hockey are when the cultural tensions would have been the highest, and they're the seasons when fighting was at a minimum. As the article points out "Although Gopnik offers an explanation for the many violent incidents in early hockey, actual fighting between players seems to have been rare."

Fighting did not really appear in the game until after it became professionalized, and cultural tensions cannot explain it when it's one team of professionals playing another team of professionals, when there are not necessarily any cultural rivalries at play.

Iain Fyffe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-07-2014, 09:53 PM
  #59
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Casablanca
Country: Morocco
Posts: 24,074
vCash: 500
^^^ Im liking Vigneaults theory, that it might well have been an import from Lacrosse where fighting was part of the game, a fair number of pro's & players involved in, playing both. Toss in $$$ & gambling, the seamier side's of sport, recipe' for what transpired.

Killion is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-07-2014, 11:16 PM
  #60
Iain Fyffe
Hockey fact-checker
 
Iain Fyffe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Fredericton, NB
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,074
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
^^^ Im liking Vigneaults theory, that it might well have been an import from Lacrosse where fighting was part of the game, a fair number of pro's & players involved in, playing both.
Yes lacrosse is a pretty good candidate for inspiration. Newsy Lalonde was a better lacrosse player than a hockey player, and a vicious bugger in either case. Might be interesting to study the sports that the more violent early players played, and compare that to the players who preferred to play by the rules.

Iain Fyffe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-07-2014, 11:27 PM
  #61
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 41,939
vCash: 500
Interesting - there was a lot of crossover between the early hockey and lacrosse players

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-07-2014, 11:35 PM
  #62
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Casablanca
Country: Morocco
Posts: 24,074
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Interesting - there was a lot of crossover between the early hockey and lacrosse players
Ya. And its that aspect, the physicality & the fact that many of them were professionals, paid to play Lacrosse that upon doing the same professionally as hockey players I believe influenced the game of hockey in no small measure. John Ross Robertson & others railing against the "thuggery" of the professionals, banning for life from OHA play anyone who played Lacrosse & later Rugby. That money was turning the game into a violent spectacle, a corruption of the sport & rife to be corrupted amongst other issues with pay for play.

Killion is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-09-2014, 03:24 AM
  #63
DanishPastry
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Country: Denmark
Posts: 84
vCash: 500
Speaking of cultural tensions...

I was born in 1983 and in Europe so didn't see the Summit Series, Canada Cups etc. between Canada and the USSR. Was there any fighting in those matches?

DanishPastry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-09-2014, 10:19 AM
  #64
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Casablanca
Country: Morocco
Posts: 24,074
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanishPastry View Post
...Was there any fighting in those matches?
... no, no real fighting but close on numerous occasions, a lot of roughing, stickwork (slashing, spearing). Then in 1987 at the World Junior Championships, all Hell finally broke loose, boiling over after years of friction between Team Canada & the USSR. Called the Punch-Up at Piestany, bench clearing brawl, both teams disqualified. Heres the wiki page on that notorious event along with a youtube clip:

www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punch-up_in_Piestany
www.youtube.com/watch?v=soXBA4RY7RQ

Killion is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-09-2014, 10:33 AM
  #65
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 11,800
vCash: 500
Baseball Is a Contact Sport

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
Baseball's not a great rebuttal, since it's not a contact sport.

But how many times does a fight happen in other contact sports that use sticks? Hurling is a sport with a lot of contact and collisions, and their sticks make much better weapons than hockey sticks as well, not as long and unwieldy. And yet, fighting is not "part of the game" in hurling.

Fighting in hockey is a cultural construct. The culture of much of North American ice hockey promotes fighting; it is not a necessary result of a contact game played with sticks. It's a result of believing that fighting is acceptable, that it may even have a strategic use.
Baseball is a contact sport;

1972- Pete Rose / Ray Fosse

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Fj2B9z4Dbw

Giants cathcer Posey getting his knee blown out in a similar collision.

Ben Chapman.

Rosboro / Marichal

Tony Conigliaro beaned by Jack Hamilton.

Just a small sampling of incidents off the cuff.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-09-2014, 10:38 AM
  #66
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 11,800
vCash: 500
Cultural Tensions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
Gopnik's theory falls short with respect to fighting. It explains violence in hockey as a result of cultural tensions, but the earliest years of hockey are when the cultural tensions would have been the highest, and they're the seasons when fighting was at a minimum. As the article points out "Although Gopnik offers an explanation for the many violent incidents in early hockey, actual fighting between players seems to have been rare."

Fighting did not really appear in the game until after it became professionalized, and cultural tensions cannot explain it when it's one team of professionals playing another team of professionals, when there are not necessarily any cultural rivalries at play.
Back in the 1870s in Montréal there were cultural tensions between the Irish Catholics and Protestants, Massive brawls during Holiday festivities, at least one death. See the works of Paul-André Linteau.

Conversely there were very few,if any, ice hockey games in the 1870s where the two Irish factions opposed each other. Few ice hockey games to begin with and teams with mixed ethnic backgrounds.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-09-2014, 11:19 AM
  #67
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Casablanca
Country: Morocco
Posts: 24,074
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Back in the 1870s in Montréal there were cultural tensions between the Irish Catholics and Protestants, Massive brawls during Holiday festivities, at least one death. See the works of Paul-André Linteau.
Same in Toronto but they were rather late to the party in terms of the games early development, Montreal certainly ahead of the curve, from whence its popularity spread. But sure enough, in Toronto "The Good" there were in fact deep divides and strife between the Irish Catholic's & Protestants. As Conn Smythe relates in his biography, literally "running the gauntlet" to & from school when passing a Catholic school & enclave. This poured over & into sports, the playing fields & ice surfaces turning into battlefields. Sensibilities, as late Victorian & Edwardian as they may have been, the Leafs assigning Catholic prospects to St.Mikes, the Protestants to the Marlborough's, and a rather heated rivalry it was in the first half of the 20th Century. Further reaching than just Catholic vs Protestant, divisions based on ethnicity including of course the more transcendent French vs English. All kinds of sub~groups, lines drawn.

Tribal.

Killion is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-09-2014, 12:04 PM
  #68
DanishPastry
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Country: Denmark
Posts: 84
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
... no, no real fighting but close on numerous occasions, a lot of roughing, stickwork (slashing, spearing). Then in 1987 at the World Junior Championships, all Hell finally broke loose, boiling over after years of friction between Team Canada & the USSR. Called the Punch-Up at Piestany, bench clearing brawl, both teams disqualified. Heres the wiki page on that notorious event along with a youtube clip:

www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punch-up_in_Piestany
www.youtube.com/watch?v=soXBA4RY7RQ
Good read. Thank you.

DanishPastry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-09-2014, 03:52 PM
  #69
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 11,800
vCash: 500
Brief Overview

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Same in Toronto but they were rather late to the party in terms of the games early development, Montreal certainly ahead of the curve, from whence its popularity spread. But sure enough, in Toronto "The Good" there were in fact deep divides and strife between the Irish Catholic's & Protestants. As Conn Smythe relates in his biography, literally "running the gauntlet" to & from school when passing a Catholic school & enclave. This poured over & into sports, the playing fields & ice surfaces turning into battlefields. Sensibilities, as late Victorian & Edwardian as they may have been, the Leafs assigning Catholic prospects to St.Mikes, the Protestants to the Marlborough's, and a rather heated rivalry it was in the first half of the 20th Century. Further reaching than just Catholic vs Protestant, divisions based on ethnicity including of course the more transcendent French vs English. All kinds of sub~groups, lines drawn.

Tribal.
Brief overview of the Irish in Montreal during the 19th century.

http://www.mccord-museum.qc.ca/scrip...ue&contentlong

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-09-2014, 04:21 PM
  #70
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Casablanca
Country: Morocco
Posts: 24,074
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Brief overview of the Irish in Montreal during the 19th century.
Interesting, nice little snapshot, over~view. And absolutely, even amongst the Irish themselves, lots of rifts be it religious, regional, loyalties to the Crown or whatever and all of that and more arriving on Canadas' soil in droves.

Killion is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-09-2014, 08:44 PM
  #71
Iain Fyffe
Hockey fact-checker
 
Iain Fyffe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Fredericton, NB
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,074
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Baseball is a contact sport;
No, baseball is not a contact sport. Some people use the term "limited contact sport" for baseball, because there is occasionally contact but it's incidental to the game as a whole and often inadvertent. If you're using a definition of "contact sport" that includes baseball, your definition is far too broad to be of any use whatever.

Iain Fyffe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-09-2014, 08:45 PM
  #72
Iain Fyffe
Hockey fact-checker
 
Iain Fyffe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Fredericton, NB
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,074
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Conversely there were very few,if any, ice hockey games in the 1870s where the two Irish factions opposed each other. Few ice hockey games to begin with and teams with mixed ethnic backgrounds.
And when the Shamrocks did begin playing, there did not suddenly emerge fighting in the game. Fighting did not become common in the game until much later, when the game had been professionalized, as I said before.

Iain Fyffe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-09-2014, 09:22 PM
  #73
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Casablanca
Country: Morocco
Posts: 24,074
vCash: 500
Discovered this in the archives as the topic seemed awfully familiar, so I'm going to merge it with this new thread starting here...

Killion is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-10-2014, 10:29 AM
  #74
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 11,800
vCash: 500
Limited Contact

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
No, baseball is not a contact sport. Some people use the term "limited contact sport" for baseball, because there is occasionally contact but it's incidental to the game as a whole and often inadvertent. If you're using a definition of "contact sport" that includes baseball, your definition is far too broad to be of any use whatever.
"Limited contact sport".

Trust you can distinguish between the concussion sustained from a baseball beaning and a hockey check or a football tackle. Likewise can you distinguish between a concussion sustained in a car or industrial accident.If so please enlighten the medical community.

The contact may not be as frequent but it may be just as devestating which is the issue.

Ben Chapman or Bill Masterton - the result was the same regardless of the sport.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-10-2014, 10:45 AM
  #75
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 11,800
vCash: 500
Montreal Shamrocks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
And when the Shamrocks did begin playing, there did not suddenly emerge fighting in the game. Fighting did not become common in the game until much later, when the game had been professionalized, as I said before.
Montreal Shamrocks were Irish Catholics as far as may be determined. Trihey and Ferrell went to St. Mary's a Catholic School.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal_Shamrocks


Was there ever an Irish Protestant team in Montreal that was a contemporary of the Shamrocks.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:28 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2015 All Rights Reserved.