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When Marc Staal comes back, can McD or MDZ play the right side?

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Old
12-23-2011, 09:55 AM
  #26
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It's not like Staal is devoid of offense. The guy had 29 points as a 24 year old. It's not out of the realm of possibility for him to turn into a 30-35 point defenseman. Which would be a very reasonable amount of production from the back-end considering he doesn't play practically any PP time.

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12-23-2011, 09:55 AM
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I guess my definition of a #1 defenceman differes from most on this board.

I want my #1 defenceman to play well defensively but I also want to put him out on the PP and post 40+ points at the very least on a year to year basis.

Staal can play very well defensively, and while he will have his Penguins moments of offensive capabilities, he is not going to touch 40 points let alone surpass that number.

Staal's skills better lend themselves to supporting that defenceman that can post up the 40+ points.

Personally speaking I think that McDonagh is going to be a better defenceman than Staal is now after 2 complete seasons of development. Right now McD has less than a full season of games under his belt. His development curve is far and away better than that of Staal and he's handling his baptisim under fire with the poise of a 10 year vet. In 2013-2014, McD is going to be ahead of Staal on our depth chart.

Someone please save this post.

And while is't nice that Staal is a DEFENCEman, please list the last cup winner that didn't have a 40+ point guy on the back end anchoring their top pairing?

Name the last true and legit contender that didn't have the same?

Having the OFFENSive defenceman on the back end that pretty much is that teams #1 guy is a key ingredient for any legit contending team. Staal is not that player.

And I can't say this enough. It's not meant as a knock on him at all. He just doesn't possess the skill set needed for that all around type of game.


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12-23-2011, 09:56 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Kovalev27 View Post
Can't take mins away from mdz. Kid can't go to the Third pair. He's scoring and playing great D he's gotta continue to get at least 20 a night. Put him with Staal
the point is that with a healthy defense and girardi and mcdonagh being overworked early the 3 defensive pairings are going to get pretty even minutes. del zotto hasn't been overwhelming defensively, just solid. it's not meant to be a bad thing for him, it's meant to ease the workload a little bit for everybody. you can't take girardi off the first pairing because he's been amazing.

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12-23-2011, 10:04 AM
  #29
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Neither.

MDZ will end up on the third pairing, which is FINE.

IF and when Sauer comes back that will leave us with a complete top 6.
when everyone is healthy yeah he can be on the 3rd pair...but he absolutely deserves to remain in the top 4 over guys like stralman, woywitka, bickel, etc. those guys have done a great job filling in, but i'd much rather take my chances with mcd on the right side and mdz in the top 4. then those other guys...

not to mention staal might not step right in getting top minutes...he might have to build up to that.

though the good news is del zotto has played great this year no matter who he is paired with. before sauer got hurt, i was concerned that taking him away from a reliable partner would really hurt his game. but right now i have alot of confidence in all top 5 guys playing with anyone...

and another thing to keep in mind is that we all hope that its just a matter of time before erixon works his way onto the team full-time, at that point (with staal back) we'd have 4 lefties and be forced to play someone on the right side. so its a move that will have to be made, hopefully sooner then later

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12-23-2011, 10:11 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
I guess my definition of a #1 defenceman differes from most on this board.

I want my #1 defenceman to play well defensively but I also want to put him out on the PP and post 40+ points at the very least on a year to year basis.

Staal can play very well defensively, and while he will have his Penguins moments of offensive capabilities, he is not going to touch 40 points let alone surpass that number.

Staal's skills better lend themselves to supporting that defenceman that can post up the 40+ points.

Personally speaking I think that McDonagh is going to be a better defenceman than Staal is now after 2 complete seasons of development. Right now McD has less than a full season of games under his belt. His development curve is far and away better than that of Staal and he's handling his baptisim under fire with the poise of a 10 year vet. In 2013-2014, McD is going to be ahead of Staal on our depth chart.

Someone please save this post.

And while is't nice that Staal is a DEFENCEman, please list the last cup winner that didn't have a 40+ point guy on the back end anchoring their top pairing?

Name the last true and legit contender that didn't have the same?

Having the OFFENSive defenceman on the back end that pretty much is that teams #1 guy is a key ingredient for any legit contending team. Staal is that that player.

And I can't say this enough. It's not meant as a knock on him at all. He just doesn't possess the skill set needed for that all around type of game.
It is much easier to acquire an offensive defenseman at the deadline for the playoff run who can play on the PP than it is to acquire a top-pairing, 30 point defenseman.

Marc Staal is the leagues new Robyn Regehr.

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12-23-2011, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
I guess my definition of a #1 defenceman differes from most on this board.

I want my #1 defenceman to play well defensively but I also want to put him out on the PP and post 40+ points at the very least on a year to year basis.

Staal can play very well defensively, and while he will have his Penguins moments of offensive capabilities, he is not going to touch 40 points let alone surpass that number.

Staal's skills better lend themselves to supporting that defenceman that can post up the 40+ points.

Personally speaking I think that McDonagh is going to be a better defenceman than Staal is now after 2 complete seasons of development. Right now McD has less than a full season of games under his belt. His development curve is far and away better than that of Staal and he's handling his baptisim under fire with the poise of a 10 year vet. In 2013-2014, McD is going to be ahead of Staal on our depth chart.

Someone please save this post.

And while is't nice that Staal is a DEFENCEman, please list the last cup winner that didn't have a 40+ point guy on the back end anchoring their top pairing?

Name the last true and legit contender that didn't have the same?

Having the OFFENSive defenceman on the back end that pretty much is that teams #1 guy is a key ingredient for any legit contending team. Staal is not that player.

And I can't say this enough. It's not meant as a knock on him at all. He just doesn't possess the skill set needed for that all around type of game.
Are there 15 defenseman in the league that you would trade for him straight up? Putting age aside to keep Lidstrom as one of the 10 although you wouldn't give up Staal for a 39 year old straight up. For me the answer is no.

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12-23-2011, 10:14 AM
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edit "15 although"

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12-23-2011, 10:14 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
It is much easier to acquire an offensive defenseman at the deadline for the playoff run who can play on the PP than it is to acquire a top-pairing, 30 point defenseman.

Marc Staal is the leagues new Robyn Regehr.
And Robyn is not, nor has he ever been considered a #1 defenceman.

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12-23-2011, 10:17 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
And Robyn is not, nor has he ever been considered a #1 defenceman.
Regehr has never scored more than 26 points in a season (26 and 21 are his highs, everything else is below 20). Staal had 29 as a 24 year old. I meant defensively.

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12-23-2011, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
And Robyn is not, nor has he ever been considered a #1 defenceman.
Was Scott Stevens not a number one defenseman for the last decade of his career? He led the Devils to 3 cups in 9 years and never topped 31 points. Or are there exceptions to your rule?

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12-23-2011, 10:28 AM
  #36
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i'm not a fan of the regehr comparison. staal is more athletic and has a much better offensive upside than regehr ever did, and staal has the potential to be better defensively. although regehr has been one of the most consistently solid defensive guys in the league since he's come up.

staal might never get a norris consideration, but he'll probably be better defensively than anybody in the league in a few years, and that's extremely valuable.

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12-23-2011, 10:48 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
I guess my definition of a #1 defenceman differes from most on this board.

I want my #1 defenceman to play well defensively but I also want to put him out on the PP and post 40+ points at the very least on a year to year basis.

Staal can play very well defensively, and while he will have his Penguins moments of offensive capabilities, he is not going to touch 40 points let alone surpass that number.

Staal's skills better lend themselves to supporting that defenceman that can post up the 40+ points.

Personally speaking I think that McDonagh is going to be a better defenceman than Staal is now after 2 complete seasons of development. Right now McD has less than a full season of games under his belt. His development curve is far and away better than that of Staal and he's handling his baptisim under fire with the poise of a 10 year vet. In 2013-2014, McD is going to be ahead of Staal on our depth chart.

Someone please save this post.

And while is't nice that Staal is a DEFENCEman, please list the last cup winner that didn't have a 40+ point guy on the back end anchoring their top pairing?

Name the last true and legit contender that didn't have the same?

Having the OFFENSive defenceman on the back end that pretty much is that teams #1 guy is a key ingredient for any legit contending team. Staal is not that player.

And I can't say this enough. It's not meant as a knock on him at all. He just doesn't possess the skill set needed for that all around type of game.

So theres a magical point marker that determines #1 status regardless of defensive play for a defenseman? Stat watching much?

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12-23-2011, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by JimmyStart View Post
So theres a magical point marker that determines #1 status regardless of defensive play for a defenseman? Stat watching much?
It isn't totally a stat issue.

It's what you expect from #1 defenceman.

I expect greater point totals than 29 points from my #1 defenceman.

I expect PP time from my #1 defenceman.

I expect my #1 defenceman to be a weapon offensively WHILE being solid in his own zone.

I do not vew Staal as a weapon offensively. I do not think that he makes his teammates more dangerous in the offensive zone.

I highly doubt the opposing coaches game-plan with Staal in the sense that they warn their team to watch out for Staal when he has the puck.

In my opinion, he's deficient in that area.

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12-23-2011, 11:42 AM
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Was Scott Stevens not a number one defenseman for the last decade of his career? He led the Devils to 3 cups in 9 years and never topped 31 points. Or are there exceptions to your rule?
There are exceptions to every rule.

And really, comparing Staal to Stevens? Seriously?

Stevens had a base from which to draw a conclusion that he was legit enough in the offensive zone to be game planned against when he had the puck. He had ESTABLISHED himself as a #1 before doing the right thing for the team and his teammates.

Staal has never topped 29 points, Stevens career high was 78 points before he allowed Neidermayer to step into the role of offensive catalyst.

Stevens stepped into the supporting role of #2 defenceman on the Devils top pairing with Neids and guess what happened? Well, you mentioned it yourself.

3 cups in 9 years and Neids was every bit as responsible as was Stevens.

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12-23-2011, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
Regehr has never scored more than 26 points in a season (26 and 21 are his highs, everything else is below 20). Staal had 29 as a 24 year old. I meant defensively.
Robyn has never been asked ot play the role of #1 defenceman because the Flames had guys that could fit that role better than he could.

In Robyn's rookie year he had Housley and Derek Morris there to take the burden of those roles. Regehr was a 3rd paring guy then.

When those guys left, he had Dion Phaneuf for that #1 spot.

While I would never expect point from Regehr, the point is that he was NEVER asked ot play a role he was not suited for.

Staal, because we have not had a Housley or a Phaneuf here to be the offensive catalyst, has been miscast as a #1 defenceman when his skill set does not lend itself to the role.

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12-23-2011, 11:52 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
It's not like Staal is devoid of offense. The guy had 29 points as a 24 year old. It's not out of the realm of possibility for him to turn into a 30-35 point defenseman. Which would be a very reasonable amount of production from the back-end considering he doesn't play practically any PP time.
He easily could. He just needs to develop his game a bit.
However, he can never lose his defensive game.
Remember how bad he was when Torts tried to turn him into Bobby Orr...

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12-23-2011, 11:56 AM
  #42
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the point is that with a healthy defense and girardi and mcdonagh being overworked early the 3 defensive pairings are going to get pretty even minutes. del zotto hasn't been overwhelming defensively, just solid. it's not meant to be a bad thing for him, it's meant to ease the workload a little bit for everybody. you can't take girardi off the first pairing because he's been amazing.
Says who you? Torts plays his top 4 big mins always has. Mdz needs to stay in the top 4

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12-23-2011, 12:26 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
It is much easier to acquire an offensive defenseman at the deadline for the playoff run who can play on the PP than it is to acquire a top-pairing, 30 point defenseman.

Marc Staal is the leagues new Robyn Regehr.
Lol you're defending the fact that Staal's a #1 defenseman (which I completely agree with) and then you use one of the worst possible comparisons.

I never did, and never will, understand how people continually compare Staal to the likes of Regehr, Phillips, Volchenkov, etc.

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12-23-2011, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
Regehr has never scored more than 26 points in a season (26 and 21 are his highs, everything else is below 20). Staal had 29 as a 24 year old. I meant defensively.
He's quite a bit better than Regher EVER was defensively.

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12-23-2011, 01:48 PM
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Nice problem to have. With the success and growth of Girardi/MacDonagh this year, I'm inclined to think that at first they stay together. Ultimately a Stall-Sauer pairing could give the Rangers two shut down pairs and leave Del Zotto as a 5th defenseman and power play specialist. Having two shut down pairs (not to mention a +20 player on the third pair) gives Torts' tremendous matchup options. Against a team like Pittsburgh that would be crucial in the playoffs.

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12-23-2011, 01:54 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
It isn't totally a stat issue.

It's what you expect from #1 defenceman.

I expect greater point totals than 29 points from my #1 defenceman.

I expect PP time from my #1 defenceman.

I expect my #1 defenceman to be a weapon offensively WHILE being solid in his own zone.

I do not vew Staal as a weapon offensively. I do not think that he makes his teammates more dangerous in the offensive zone.

I highly doubt the opposing coaches game-plan with Staal in the sense that they warn their team to watch out for Staal when he has the puck.

In my opinion, he's deficient in that area.
Marc Staal plays against and often neutralizes the best players in the league while logging between 25 and 30 minutes a night with the ability to help on the offensive end. He produces about 30 points a year with little to no time on the PP. He is a #1 d-man. His defensive prowess alone puts him in that category.

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12-23-2011, 01:55 PM
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There are exceptions to every rule.

And really, comparing Staal to Stevens? Seriously?

Stevens had a base from which to draw a conclusion that he was legit enough in the offensive zone to be game planned against when he had the puck. He had ESTABLISHED himself as a #1 before doing the right thing for the team and his teammates.

Staal has never topped 29 points, Stevens career high was 78 points before he allowed Neidermayer to step into the role of offensive catalyst.

Stevens stepped into the supporting role of #2 defenceman on the Devils top pairing with Neids and guess what happened? Well, you mentioned it yourself.

3 cups in 9 years and Neids was every bit as responsible as was Stevens.
If you're truly a Ranger fan don't call Scott Neidermeyer "Neids".

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12-23-2011, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
If you're truly a Ranger fan don't call Scott Neidermeyer "Neids".
I'm a Hockey fan first and foremost.

The a Rangers fan.

And I call players by what I am comfortable calling them.

Neids is fine by me. get over it.

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12-23-2011, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
Marc Staal plays against and often neutralizes the best players in the league while logging between 25 and 30 minutes a night with the ability to help on the offensive end. He produces about 30 points a year with little to no time on the PP. He is a #1 d-man. His defensive prowess alone puts him in that category.
I would never deny he has top notch defensive abilities.

He does not have what I feel are the offensive capabilities comensurate with a true #1 defenceman.

What you described above is a shut down defenceman with some offensive capabilities.

In my opinion, I think we get more from Staal by playing him with an offensive guy as opposed to expecting him to provide it.

I think time and again if we are expecting any offensive production from our tope pairing, we need to seperate both Staal and Girardi who is also not a #1 guy and he's better offensively than Staal and has shown this year to JUST AS GOOD DEFENSIVELY.

You guys seem to be taking this personally. It's not personal.

I think that Staal and Girardi are probably the best shut down pairing in the league, but because they lack on the offensive side of the puck, they leave alot to be desired in the sense of a dominating duo.

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12-23-2011, 02:19 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
I'm a Hockey fan first and foremost.

The a Rangers fan.

And I call players by what I am comfortable calling them.

Neids is fine by me. get over it.
I won't. What's your pet name for Crosby? Did you cheer for the Devils at a Rangers/Devils game when Neidermeyer made a nice play? Better question, have you ever been to a Ranger game with that squishy perspective?

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