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Old
12-25-2011, 07:38 PM
  #401
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EDIT: Accidental double-post.

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12-25-2011, 07:42 PM
  #402
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Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
Can someone explain to me why the Habs situation is so catastrophic?

Sure they're doing awful this year, but they have several excixting young players and a pretty solid core in place and some exciting prospects coming up the lines in the next year or two.

I thought Gainey did a good job, not mistake free and didn't ultimately achieve what he had hoped for but he set up a good foundation for this team for years to come, took a team with nothing, rebuilt them on the fly and had a team that was contendering for the playoffs almost every year as well.
People are over-exaggerating. We've always been a dramatic fan base. We've had a poor start to the season, sure, but we have a good core of players. Our youth are carrying the team because our veterans are playing like crap. We have a new coach, whose predecessor played such a defensive style that our offensive players lost motivation, and we're trying to learn a new system with more intense forechecking and defensemen jumping into the rush more often. In the big picture, the first half of this year is no big deal. Sure, bad asset management in some cases that have created some cap issues, but we can get out of it if we get the right guy. We have a chance to draft a top 5 player this year, it's a blessing in disguise. If only our short-sighted fan base could see it. The last 5 years we've been in a transition. We've now completed that transition and need to take the next step forward. Our current management hasn't shown they can be those guys. So it's been less important to have the perfect guys before, but it's VERY important for it to happen now. The next coach & GM will make or break the organization. Gainey and Gauthier were blah. We were never going to win the Cup 5 years after our horrendous 90's run.

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12-25-2011, 08:42 PM
  #403
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Why is it so catastrophic? Poor trading and asset management by Gauthier.

Look at Hamilton. One of the worst teams in the AHL. There isnt a lot there.

You can go through the list of Montreal transactions last year and you will see a lot of trades for nothing (Laps is a good example) in return and lot of giving up of draft picks.

Regarding Halak, I like Eller. I think one day he will be productive for this team. However, we should have gotten more for him.
Lapierre would really make a difference? Is that the good example on which you base your argument? Whew! Considering that Lapierre demanded to play on the first or second line, I say good riddance. He had delusions of grandeur. He's not used there in Vancouver because he isn't talented enough. We don't know yet what the prospect the Habs got in return will amount to but we do know that Lapierre's salary no longer counts against the cap. As for the trades for veterans, Moore and Halpern performed as expected. So did Wisniewski.

Gauthier made a number of positive moves besides bringing in Eller. How about Cole, Emelin, and Desharnais at no cost in prospects or draft picks? Or Kaberle at the cost of Spacek, who was contributing little? He also brought in Diaz and St-Denis. His trade for Nokelainen was mildly helpful. Signing Darche was no big deal. The Habs got a little more than they paid for. Gauthier didn't give up any first rounders (as Gainey unfortunately did for Tanguay).

As for not using young players, Gauthier has Leblanc playing in Montrťal ahead of schedule.

I've stated a number of times that Halak has become an expensive backup for the Blues. Holding on to him was impossible and I doubt that Gauthier received any better offers for him.

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12-25-2011, 08:49 PM
  #404
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Being the owner's friend doesn't mean they want to make you the GM. Guys like Geoff Molson didn't get where they are by hiring all their friends in key positions. McGuire has no experience in player personnel and his track record as a braodcaster is as a blowhard taht uses terms to try and make himself look smart. If he is hired as GM I will instantly start cheering for another team.
lol please tell how you think G Molson got where he is.

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12-25-2011, 10:33 PM
  #405
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lol please tell how you think G Molson got where he is.
I hope he doesn't follow the Ron Corey paradigm, in which case he'd name another loyal Molson employee, like Rťjean Houle, for instance.

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12-25-2011, 10:38 PM
  #406
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lol please tell how you think G Molson got where he is.
If the guy was an idiot at business he would Have never been made CEO, family or not.

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12-25-2011, 10:45 PM
  #407
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Originally Posted by Ginu View Post
People are over-exaggerating. We've always been a dramatic fan base. We've had a poor start to the season, sure, but we have a good core of players. Our youth are carrying the team because our veterans are playing like crap. We have a new coach, whose predecessor played such a defensive style that our offensive players lost motivation, and we're trying to learn a new system with more intense forechecking and defensemen jumping into the rush more often. In the big picture, the first half of this year is no big deal. Sure, bad asset management in some cases that have created some cap issues, but we can get out of it if we get the right guy. We have a chance to draft a top 5 player this year, it's a blessing in disguise. If only our short-sighted fan base could see it. The last 5 years we've been in a transition. We've now completed that transition and need to take the next step forward. Our current management hasn't shown they can be those guys. So it's been less important to have the perfect guys before, but it's VERY important for it to happen now. The next coach & GM will make or break the organization. Gainey and Gauthier were blah. We were never going to win the Cup 5 years after our horrendous 90's run.
Tomas Plekanec is leading the team in scoring. Erik Cole, Andrei Kostitsyn, and Moes are among the leading goal scorers. Josh Gorges is playing the best defense. PK Subban is playing like crap. Eller has to rev up his scoring. The only under-25 players who are holding up their end are Price and Pacioretty. Leblanc looks promising. Aaron Palushaj comes and goes (mostly goes).


Last edited by Teufelsdreck: 12-25-2011 at 11:13 PM.
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Old
12-25-2011, 10:47 PM
  #408
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Originally Posted by Ginu View Post
People are over-exaggerating. We've always been a dramatic fan base. We've had a poor start to the season, sure, but we have a good core of players. Our youth are carrying the team because our veterans are playing like crap. We have a new coach, whose predecessor played such a defensive style that our offensive players lost motivation, and we're trying to learn a new system with more intense forechecking and defensemen jumping into the rush more often. In the big picture, the first half of this year is no big deal. Sure, bad asset management in some cases that have created some cap issues, but we can get out of it if we get the right guy. We have a chance to draft a top 5 player this year, it's a blessing in disguise. If only our short-sighted fan base could see it. The last 5 years we've been in a transition. We've now completed that transition and need to take the next step forward. Our current management hasn't shown they can be those guys. So it's been less important to have the perfect guys before, but it's VERY important for it to happen now. The next coach & GM will make or break the organization. Gainey and Gauthier were blah. We were never going to win the Cup 5 years after our horrendous 90's run.
Tomas Plekanec is leading the team in scoring. Erik Cole, Andrei Kostitsyn, and Travis Moen are among the leading goal scorers. Josh Gorges is playing the best defense. PK Subban is playing like crap. Eller has to rev up his scoring. The only under-25 players who are holding up their end are Price and Pacioretty. Leblanc looks promising. Aaron Palushaj comes and goes (mostly goes).

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12-25-2011, 10:52 PM
  #409
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Why is it so catastrophic? Poor trading and asset management by Gauthier.

Look at Hamilton. One of the worst teams in the AHL. There isnt a lot there.

You can go through the list of Montreal transactions last year and you will see a lot of trades for nothing (Laps is a good example) in return and lot of giving up of draft picks.

Regarding Halak, I like Eller. I think one day he will be productive for this team. However, we should have gotten more for him.
Hamilton has a poor team for two reasons.

#1 and most importantly, the pro side of the organisation has sustained a ton of injuries. When you have 4-5 NHLers out for most of the seaso, the AHL team loses 2-3 or 4 of it's best players(Palushaj Engqvist Blunden LeBlanc Diaz? St.Denis at different times) pretty much all year. Plus a few guys that were destined for the AHL have been out missing a lot of time LeBlanc, Nash, Bishop, Lawson, Conboy have all missed time.

#2 they didn't spend a lot on multi year contracts as a lot of the best prospects in the organisation are projected to go pro next year, Bournival Ellis Beaulieu Tinordi Gallagher Kristo Pateryn plus possibly Kishel and/or Quailer.

Please show me what trades were "for nothing".

What offers were on the table that were better than Eller?

Reason #1-Just because Montreal fans thought Halak was a god after his 2010 playoff run, doesn't mean NHL executives had him pegged as a perennial all-star and the answer to their goaltending for 10 years. Bobby Clarke even said on the TSN pannel that Phillie had him as an average goalie on a tear, so you can see why they were not moving JVR or Giroux for him.

Reason #2-Phillie and Chicago both got to the finals with average to mediocre goaltending, as the NHL is a copycat league i'm sure a lot of taems were thinking they don't need a star goalie to get there.

Reason #3-the summer of 2010 there were a pile of pretty good(solid not stars) goalie flooding the UFA market. So GM's had strong Plan B and Plan C options so they never felt they needed to give up core young assets for a goalie. There were quite a few rumors that Schneider and Bernier could also be had for the right price, that further provided other options.

All that being said we ended up with a guy drafted 1st round who was NHL ready at 21 plus another guy drafted 3rd round who was turning pro. Still a good return in a busy market.

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12-25-2011, 10:58 PM
  #410
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Lapierre would really make a difference? Is that the good example on which you base your argument? Whew! Considering that Lapierre demanded to play on the first or second line, I say good riddance. He had delusions of grandeur. He's not used there in Vancouver because he isn't talented enough. We don't know yet what the prospect the Habs got in return will amount to but we do know that Lapierre's salary no longer counts against the cap. As for the trades for veterans, Moore and Halpern performed as expected. So did Wisniewski.

Gauthier made a number of positive moves besides bringing in Eller. How about Cole, Emelin, and Desharnais at no cost in prospects or draft picks? Or Kaberle at the cost of Spacek, who was contributing little? He also brought in Diaz and St-Denis. His trade for Nokelainen was mildly helpful. Signing Darche was no big deal. The Habs got a little more than they paid for. Gauthier didn't give up any first rounders (as Gainey unfortunately did for Tanguay).

As for not using young players, Gauthier has Leblanc playing in Montrťal ahead of schedule.

I've stated a number of times that Halak has become an expensive backup for the Blues. Holding on to him was impossible and I doubt that Gauthier received any better offers for him.
The problem with Lapierre was twofold.

1st he was not consistant. When you are a bottom 6 role player you have to show up at least 4 out of 5 games not 1 or 2 and he had stretches when he wasn't skating and hitting where he brought nothing...was not on the PK or playing a shutdown role. Being an ernergy palyer you HAVE to be there on nights the team needs a boost. White plays the same role and does it better plus he will drop the gloves. Sucks that he is out, but when healthy I see him as being better than Lappiere at that role.

2nd he saw himself playing a bigger role, getting PP time, PK time and putting up points. He was given a few cahnces here and again in Anaheim and Vancouver and never really took off. That belief led to asking for a trade, probably partly because it was a contract year.

At the end of day a healthy White and is better and cheaper in that role.

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Old
12-25-2011, 11:29 PM
  #411
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Stop making stuff up so you can attach a false paradigm to your faulty logic.

He does have huge potential, but considering your manic use of comfabulations, I wouldn't trust you to see anything for what it is.

And before you argue, what the Habs said about Eller is that he was ready to play in the NHL, that's all. The rest you added to it.
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lol no he wasn't!

edit: well, i see ozy beat me to it...
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
He had a whole 7 nhl games under his belt when we got him. Where did you dream that up?
I guess you missed the part where Gauthier said Lars could contribute to this team NOW.

Some people here it's like you mention their favorite player and they fly off the handle. Go back and read/watch what Gauthier said about Lars when he was acquired.

And what's funny is at that time some were prognosticating that Eller would put up 40-50 points with the Habs. But...yea, Eller was really sold to us as a guy who was 3 years away

No matter how you want to shake it, Lars has been a disappointment. I like the guy and think he can be a good player, but at this point he's not contributing enough on the scoreboard.

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12-25-2011, 11:31 PM
  #412
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Tomas Plekanec is leading the team in scoring. Erik Cole, Andrei Kostitsyn, and Moes are among the leading goal scorers. Josh Gorges is playing the best defense. PK Subban is playing like crap. Eller has to rev up his scoring. The only under-25 players who are holding up their end are Price and Pacioretty. Leblanc looks promising. Aaron Palushaj comes and goes (mostly goes).
May I ask what you were replying to in my post because I don't get your reply

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12-25-2011, 11:33 PM
  #413
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Lapierre would really make a difference? Is that the good example on which you base your argument? Whew! Considering that Lapierre demanded to play on the first or second line, I say good riddance. He had delusions of grandeur. He's not used there in Vancouver because he isn't talented enough. We don't know yet what the prospect the Habs got in return will amount to but we do know that Lapierre's salary no longer counts against the cap. As for the trades for veterans, Moore and Halpern performed as expected. So did Wisniewski.

Gauthier made a number of positive moves besides bringing in Eller. How about Cole, Emelin, and Desharnais at no cost in prospects or draft picks? Or Kaberle at the cost of Spacek, who was contributing little? He also brought in Diaz and St-Denis. His trade for Nokelainen was mildly helpful. Signing Darche was no big deal. The Habs got a little more than they paid for. Gauthier didn't give up any first rounders (as Gainey unfortunately did for Tanguay).

As for not using young players, Gauthier has Leblanc playing in Montrťal ahead of schedule.

I've stated a number of times that Halak has become an expensive backup for the Blues. Holding on to him was impossible and I doubt that Gauthier received any better offers for him.
Why do people say this? If we were talking about Gillis, Shero, or Ciarelli, I'd agree, but we're talking about Gauthier. The man who gets fleeced on deal after deal. Why is he given the benefit of the doubt when he has a proven track record of incompetence?

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12-25-2011, 11:38 PM
  #414
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If the guy was an idiot at business he would Have never been made CEO, family or not.
Molson is a public company too.

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12-25-2011, 11:39 PM
  #415
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I guess you missed the part where Gauthier said Lars could contribute to this team NOW.

Some people here it's like you mention their favorite player and they fly off the handle. Go back and read/watch what Gauthier said about Lars when he was acquired.

And what's funny is at that time some were prognosticating that Eller would put up 40-50 points with the Habs. But...yea, Eller was really sold to us as a guy who was 3 years away

No matter how you want to shake it, Lars has been a disappointment. I like the guy and think he can be a good player, but at this point he's not contributing enough on the scoreboard.
I heard him say 'he can play on the team now'. Never heard him talk about contribution and even then, it's you extrapolating. He can play in the NHL, so he does contribute, to what degree doesn't matter, because you are applying your own subjective degree to what Gauthier said. You're using an interpretation of semantic as an argument. Lemme guess, you were probably part of the people who kept repeating 'boivin promised a cup', when all he did was to state it was their goal, what they were aiming for.

Eller is only 22 and is already ahead of Plekanec in his development at the same age.

But keep the witch hunt going, it suits you marvelously.

Also, instead of jumping to conclusions and pretend to know people's opinion, realize that Eller isn't my favorite player and I was simply destroying your pityful made-up argument. I'm more a fan of the team than the players, and incidently rarely hate any player on the team (1 in the last decade), and mostly like them all, because they're people before they're players and most Habs are usually just simple guys who like hockey a lot and are very good at it.


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12-25-2011, 11:56 PM
  #416
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
I heard him say 'he can play on the team now'. Never heard him talk about contribution and even then, it's you extrapolating. He can play in the NHL, so he does contribute, to what degree doesn't matter, because you are applying your own subjective degree to what Gauthier said. You're using an interpretation of semantic as an argument. Lemme guess, you were probably part of the people who kept repeating 'boivin promised a cup', when all he did was to state it was their goal, what they were aiming for.

Eller is only 22 and is already ahead of Plekanec in his development at the same age.

But keep the witch hunt going, it suits you marvelously.

Also, instead of jumping to conclusions and pretend to know people's opinion, realize that Eller isn't my favorite player and I was simply destroying your pityful made-up argument. I'm more a fan of the team than the players, and incidently rarely hate any player on the team (1 in the last decade), and mostly like them all, because they're people before they're players and most Habs are usually just simple guys who like hockey a lot and are very good at it.
Witch hunt? All I said was Eller has been a bit of a disappointment thus far. I could care less if he was further along than Pleks. At this point he's not putting up numbers and that's a bit of a concern. And um, there's a reason why Moore was not retained and a 3rd line center was not acquired via FA the year Eller was traded for. Gauthier had already had Eller projected as a #3 centerman. Eller had 7 goals and 17 points last year. You're telling me this is exactly what Gauthier expected from his #3 centerman who could contribute now?

BTW, In Plex's 2nd full season with the Habs, he put up 20 goals. At 22, Pleks put up 9G and 20 assists. Get this. Pleks was not a 1st round pick. Why are you comparing a 13th overall pick to a 71st?

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12-25-2011, 11:58 PM
  #417
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Hamilton has a poor team for two reasons.

#1 and most importantly, the pro side of the organisation has sustained a ton of injuries. When you have 4-5 NHLers out for most of the seaso, the AHL team loses 2-3 or 4 of it's best players(Palushaj Engqvist Blunden LeBlanc Diaz? St.Denis at different times) pretty much all year. Plus a few guys that were destined for the AHL have been out missing a lot of time LeBlanc, Nash, Bishop, Lawson, Conboy have all missed time.

#2 they didn't spend a lot on multi year contracts as a lot of the best prospects in the organisation are projected to go pro next year, Bournival Ellis Beaulieu Tinordi Gallagher Kristo Pateryn plus possibly Kishel and/or Quailer.

Please show me what trades were "for nothing".

What offers were on the table that were better than Eller?

Reason #1-Just because Montreal fans thought Halak was a god after his 2010 playoff run, doesn't mean NHL executives had him pegged as a perennial all-star and the answer to their goaltending for 10 years. Bobby Clarke even said on the TSN pannel that Phillie had him as an average goalie on a tear, so you can see why they were not moving JVR or Giroux for him.

Reason #2-Phillie and Chicago both got to the finals with average to mediocre goaltending, as the NHL is a copycat league i'm sure a lot of taems were thinking they don't need a star goalie to get there.

Reason #3-the summer of 2010 there were a pile of pretty good(solid not stars) goalie flooding the UFA market. So GM's had strong Plan B and Plan C options so they never felt they needed to give up core young assets for a goalie. There were quite a few rumors that Schneider and Bernier could also be had for the right price, that further provided other options.

All that being said we ended up with a guy drafted 1st round who was NHL ready at 21 plus another guy drafted 3rd round who was turning pro. Still a good return in a busy market.

I understand that we have a couple of Hamilton players up here with us. I understand that we have some injury problems in Hamilton.

Lets put those aside for a second and look who's left down there.

I am not going to go down the line so I will mention some of the players that you mentioned and a few others. Palushaj. Not impressed with his callups. Granted, he was misused by Martin with junk time on the 4th, but nothing special. Engqvist. Never will play on an NHL team. Too soft and nothing special. St.Denis. Career AHLer. Avtsin. Struggling in the AHL. Willsie, Fortier, Dumont, Lawson, Mayer. None of those could come up to Montreal and make an impact.

Hamilton is weaker than it has been in many years. Not surprisingly, Gauthier has been gifting several trades with not much in return (I would post up the transactions but it has been done before ad nauseum) during his tenure and the cupboard is getting bare.

I look forward to the new players getting to Hamilton next year. However, if history is a precedent, it will be two-three years before they develop.

Being this weak in the minors is not acceptable in Montreal, much less anywhere else in the NHL.

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12-26-2011, 12:03 AM
  #418
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I understand that we have a couple of Hamilton players up here with us. I understand that we have some injury problems in Hamilton.

Lets put those aside for a second and look who's left down there.

I am not going to go down the line so I will mention some of the players that you mentioned and a few others. Palushaj. Not impressed with his callups. Granted, he was misused by Martin with junk time on the 4th, but nothing special. Engqvist. Never will play on an NHL team. Too soft and nothing special. St.Denis. Career AHLer. Avtsin. Struggling in the AHL. Willsie, Fortier, Dumont, Lawson, Mayer. None of those could come up to Montreal and make an impact.

Hamilton is weaker than it has been in many years. Not surprisingly, Gauthier has been gifting several trades with not much in return (I would post up the transactions but it has been done before ad nauseum) during his tenure and the cupboard is getting bare.

I look forward to the new players getting to Hamilton next year. However, if history is a precedent, it will be two-three years before they develop.

Being this weak in the minors is not acceptable in Montreal, much less anywhere else in the NHL.
Every team ends-up having a down year with their AHL club. They'll probably be much better when Kristo, Gallagher, Tinordi and Beaulieu come around.

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12-26-2011, 12:38 AM
  #419
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I understand that we have a couple of Hamilton players up here with us. I understand that we have some injury problems in Hamilton.

Lets put those aside for a second and look who's left down there.

I am not going to go down the line so I will mention some of the players that you mentioned and a few others. Palushaj. Not impressed with his callups. Granted, he was misused by Martin with junk time on the 4th, but nothing special. Engqvist. Never will play on an NHL team. Too soft and nothing special. St.Denis. Career AHLer. Avtsin. Struggling in the AHL. Willsie, Fortier, Dumont, Lawson, Mayer. None of those could come up to Montreal and make an impact.

Hamilton is weaker than it has been in many years. Not surprisingly, Gauthier has been gifting several trades with not much in return (I would post up the transactions but it has been done before ad nauseum) during his tenure and the cupboard is getting bare.

I look forward to the new players getting to Hamilton next year. However, if history is a precedent, it will be two-three years before they develop.

Being this weak in the minors is not acceptable in Montreal, much less anywhere else in the NHL.
let's ignore the fact that they have won the calder cup and have two conference finals appearance for a second, and of course they suck. eveybody that's anybody if either with the big club, or injured.

but don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant

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12-26-2011, 01:20 AM
  #420
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let's ignore the fact that they have won the calder cup and have two conference finals appearance for a second, and of course they suck. eveybody that's anybody if either with the big club, or injured.

but don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant
Five years ago and more does not have much to do with today. I agree with SouthernHab 100 percent, the current prospect situation reflects the way Gainey-Gauthier have been dealing.

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12-26-2011, 10:56 AM
  #421
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Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
Gainey took over a team that was in disarray and brought them back to respectability. Ultimately his tenure has been a disappointment, but pieces that he brought in through trades or draft are huge parts of this team and could very well be part of the core of the habs team that wins the cup in the near future.

To call him terrible just confuses me, what did he do that made him a terrible GM?
Andre Savard already had this team moving in the right direction. Senile bob did nothing but throw his own blue print out the window in complete panic mode when he over paid for Spacek, Cammy, Gionta, Gomez, Gill all at once. It was a sign of an old dinosaur operating this team. If John Ferguson Jr made those moves they'd be forever laughed at and ridiculed, but because Gainey was a Habs star and former legend he gets a free pass. It was one of the worst series of moves in a single off season by any GM in recent memory. Not only did he over pay for all those players, he acquired a group of players who individually are pretty decent, but collectively are a mess and certainly shouldn't have took a genius to see that Gomez, Cammy, Gionta, Pleks, in the top 6 is recipe for failure, where's the balance? Way, way, way too small.

He's made some decent trades too, but overall we need to move as far away from him as possible, his plan hasn't worked. See you later, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

I seriously doubt Geoff is considering rehiring a guy who bought a bunch of overpaid bums and then quit on them when things were going poorly the following year and admitted the game had passed him by. The quicker Gainey is out of the picture, the better. He was a bad GM, this team was already put on the correct path before he took over, giving him sole credit for the recovery is a bunch of BS.

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Old
12-26-2011, 12:13 PM
  #422
Ozymandias
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
Andre Savard already had this team moving in the right direction. Senile bob did nothing but throw his own blue print out the window in complete panic mode when he over paid for Spacek, Cammy, Gionta, Gomez, Gill all at once. It was a sign of an old dinosaur operating this team. If John Ferguson Jr made those moves they'd be forever laughed at and ridiculed, but because Gainey was a Habs star and former legend he gets a free pass. It was one of the worst series of moves in a single off season by any GM in recent memory. Not only did he over pay for all those players, he acquired a group of players who individually are pretty decent, but collectively are a mess and certainly shouldn't have took a genius to see that Gomez, Cammy, Gionta, Pleks, in the top 6 is recipe for failure, where's the balance? Way, way, way too small.

He's made some decent trades too, but overall we need to move as far away from him as possible, his plan hasn't worked. See you later, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

I seriously doubt Geoff is considering rehiring a guy who bought a bunch of overpaid bums and then quit on them when things were going poorly the following year and admitted the game had passed him by. The quicker Gainey is out of the picture, the better. He was a bad GM, this team was already put on the correct path before he took over, giving him sole credit for the recovery is a bunch of BS.
Yeah, I knew you were lying, I did remember your first time around here, Gainey-basher (first bolded part).

I wonder what plan people would formulate if the prime goal they were given by their boss was making the playoffs NOW (that much should be obvious). The plan is always meant to reach a desired goal. But unlike the fans, ownership has a different goal. It's NOW, not in 2 years, not in 3 years. People like to pretend that Gainey's plan was of his own imperative, completely ignoring the fact that financially, the Habs cannot afford to miss the playoffs (most of the profit comes from the playoffs). It's a complete paradigm shift from what most people here think management can and cannot do, and its so easily ignored just so people like you can go on their highly subjective rants.

Remember a few weeks back when you responded like a dick to a post I made, and went on to say I often used absolutisms. I didn't think it was worth correcting as it was full of BS. But the main thing was about critical thinking and your ego went full out saying you didn't need lessons in critical thinking and that I often used absolutisms. I'll set the record straight here. I RARELY use absolutisms, liar, but you do, OFTEN. Fact is, most of my posts have the words "most/least probable", "probabilities". That's not absolutisms. In fact I'm one of the rare people here who often uses those words often, instead of using absolutisms. The only absolutisms I use are know facts, not the extrapolation from those facts. You might say that my view on the imperative of ownership is an absolutism, but even then, all facts point to this. Just like string theory. It hasn't fully been proven yet, but everything points to its validity.

You use false logic to prove something that is not fact. Far from critical thinking. Those signings brought the team close to cup finals. No matter how you put it, you can't say it does not work. The present situation with the team has nothing to do with that makeup as it did work. The present situation is unknown and is not a problem related to talent or makeup of the team as most people saw what they could do together and know they can do much much better than what is being done right now. There is something on the human level going on in the lockeroom. This can happen to ANY team, has happened to many teams, and will keep happening to many teams, because, the players are people and people don't always get along.

Don't bother responding and painting reality differently from what it is. Critical thinking my ***. You're still the same as when you came around here. Filled with huge bias and lacking much critical thinking. You think in simplistic faulty logic, using your bias to conclude absolutisms.

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Old
12-26-2011, 12:28 PM
  #423
Teufelsdreck
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Originally Posted by Ginu View Post
May I ask what you were replying to in my post because I don't get your reply
You stated that the youth were carrying the team while the veterans were crapping out. I replied that the veterans were leading in most categories while the under-25s, with the obvious exceptions of Price and Pacioretty, were lagging. Of course, there aren't many under-25 regulars, so I'm referring mainly to Subban and Eller. Call-ups, such as Palushaj, have been undistinguished.

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Old
12-26-2011, 12:34 PM
  #424
Munchausen
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I miss Bob Gainey's strong presence (warning: loooooooooooong-winded post)

This reflection comes from an interesting discussion I had with a family member over some artery narrowing deliciousness during the holidays and so I thought about trying to extend it over here.

When I say I miss Gainey's presence, I mean his leadership, the quite confidence combined with his glorious past that calmed the drama queens for a few years and allowed him to do his job. When he came out against the boobirds that had made it a national sport to torment Patrice Brisebois and make sure he'd get extra nervous every time it was his turn to touch the puck, you know what I told myself? This guy has some humongous balls. Say what you want, right or wrong, that was a ballsy move, a move I could never see Pierre Gauthier or most of the general population for that matter making. That guy, who I did not really see play much, since I got into hockey around the last time the Habs won a cup, had just earned my respect. That guy was Honest Abe, a very rare personality trait if I can unfortunately say so. I trusted that man. I trusted his character, his integrity. The rest of the crowd, they were already won over, the day he lifted that shiny trophy above his head, the day he lead his team with the same quite leadership, to the biggest achievement possible.

He took some dreadful decisions towards the end of his regime, but I liked the steps he took in the early parts. After it all came to a weird ending, I decided to cut a guy who just lost his daughter some slack. I think people often overlook with some perplexing insensibility what a tragedy like this can do to a manís focus on the job, I dare you to tell me you wouldnít react the same way. At that point, we saw and felt a clear cut difference from a guy who just didnít have much interest left for his pro life, and Iím appalled by the ones who have or would criticize him for that.

Then comes a guy in Pierre Gauthier who, even if I consider myself a guy who isnít too judgmental in everyday life, I have very little confidence in to right the ship ATM. This isnít about competence; I think Gauthier has a true passion and relative talent for identifying skills and potential. But heís also a guy who in his interactions with the media projects arrogance and a complex of superiority which is quite disproportionate to his resume IMO.

You felt, with Bob Gainey, that you were dealing with the only guy left on earth to still honor and cherish all the old knight code of conduct, a guy who would fall on a sword for his peers or the organization he helped make so prestigious. Anybody get that feeling from Pierre Gauthier? Yeah exactly.

Iíve lived in Montreal long enough through both the French and English worlds, which to this day are unfortunately still very different, to know that in this city, in this bipolar, hysteric and often menstruated city, you need to command respect if you want to be able to do your job managing the most storied franchise ever. That nostalgic illusion which will never be brought back to life again, by any living man, because context was completely different at the time, has handicapped this city and its team for so many years.

Montreal got a favorable treatment until the 60s by having first claim on Quebecers, which was fantastic, because it did so much for the culture, by giving heroes to a generation of Quebecers who had very few to look up to. This part I got from talking the subject over with older guys. I havenít lived it myself of course, but when you go back in History, it feels as though the Canadiens had a say alongside notable political figures in invigorating provincial pride and identity. The CH tattooed heroes were the little guys, your neighbor, who worked at the factory side by side with your uncle Joe in between games. They were a symbol and I get it, with all the obvious and necessary admiration it requires.

Problem is, there is none of that left, itís gone forever. I really regret not living that historical moment, which was for so many Quebecers much more than just winning a game. They were winning their pride back and I get where the old timers in the media are coming from, even if their rhetoric, to a younger crowd like the one Iím still in, sounds like senility based whining. But they got marked by that History like none of us will have the privilege to be. And the pressure these guys put on the organization, when you take a step back to ponder, is absolutely insane. I live in a somewhat stressful professional environment myself but I donít think I could make it past a month with the amount of pressure these guys have to endure daily.

And yet, when I look at Pierre Gauthier, right or wrong, I envision a guy who will stab a colleague in the back rather than fall on the sword like the old knight would for him, like the old knight in fact did for him IMO, by taking all of the responsibility and therefore the whole blame in case of failure for the major team makeover, one which might very well have been orchestrated by the guy now in place, because they both knew about to upcoming switch. Bob Gainey is not the kind of man to create a mess and bail out. Heís the man who stood strong through adversity all his life. What he did, to me, is fall on the sword.

You might disagree with me and thatís fine, but I like to think that if I, who I repeat is not at all judgmental in day to day life towards others, feel like there are some serious character flaws that transpire through Gauthierís press interactions, I assume many others feel this way. This was exacerbated by the reputation that preceded him and the PR nightmare that just ended. Those old timers, the ones longing for the lost purity of what that sport once was, they remembered, they got poked and the bear woke up. Gauthier didnít see it coming, he didnít because heís much more of an outside businessman type than the passionate ambassador others before him were. Judging from his latest blunder, it seems he knows as much about the reality of this city and this province as I do Quantum mechanics.

A guy like that canít manage a team like this, a team, a fanbase, with so much backstory. He has no authority, and thatís why the hounds were unleashed in record time when he tripped over himself the last few weeks. He got lambasted. Of course, eventually, they all lose immunity, like Gainey did with the usual whiners and the odd heartbroken diva, like F. Gagnon, who started to hold a grudge against the evil monster who tore to pieces his good friend Claude Julien, and whoís also repeating the same over-emotional routine with PG now that his buddy JM was shown the same door (whatís with this guy and his love for coaches anyway).

This has no longer to do with competence Iím afraid, this job is as much if not more about appearances these days, and it will be like so until the old timers get out of the car and hand over the steering-wheel to the next generation. Pierre Gauthier cannot at the current time be given maneuvering room to build through trial and error, he doesnít have credibility, his personality is a bit repulsive Iím sorry (and a little ashamed) to say, and so I feel the next heir apparent to the throne, who shall be found fast since the king is dying, will need to bring back IMO what Gainey brought, the kind of respect a man like Gainey commanded by all your typical whiners, the ones who want it all and want it now, or the ones who are too blinded by their nostalgia to bother stepping away from the tree blocking their vue from the rest of the forest behind it, a forest made out of a completely new competitive landscape and therefore entirely new and greater challenges.

The GM of the Montreal Canadiens needs to command enough respect, to keep himself away at a safe biting distance and for long enough, from the dogs who think this franchiseís greatness will be magically restored once more Quebecers play for it, ignoring the fact most of them have also become simple businessmen in their approach to their career, same as the rest of ďthemĒ, and would therefore probably bring very little of that once magical passion and sacrifice, just like Ribeiro, Theodore, Tanguay and many more have indeed not brought in the past, just like Briere has decided to steer clear of this jungle.

If youíve read up to this point, I think I can safely say youíre a more patient man than I am, so Iíll stop it here. Agree? Disagree? Why? What are the implications and whatís to come?

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Old
12-26-2011, 12:39 PM
  #425
Lafleurs Guy
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I read bits and pieces of your post (sorry it was too long.)

Anyways, yes... Gainey had an air of authority. And for the first part of his tenure it felt nice to have a 'real' GM at the helm. Yes, I think he screwed up in the second half of his tenure but I get what you're saying.

If we are going to replace PG, I hope it's with somebody who's been around and it isn't some guy with no experience.

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