HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

This team no longer represents its fans

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-26-2011, 05:36 AM
  #101
ECWHSWI
5M? insulting!!!
 
ECWHSWI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 16,766
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
None taken.

Please show me what they've done to assemble a contender. All I've seen are quick fixes and panic moves to make 8th place. Where has the proactive planning come in? Please... show me.

so, what you're saying is they built 8th place teams on purpose...


really...

ECWHSWI is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2011, 08:59 AM
  #102
Andy
Moderator
 
Andy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 21,352
vCash: 500
Represents its fans? Sorry I'd rather not have a whiney, obnoxious and entitled team.

Andy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2011, 10:36 AM
  #103
Ginu
Registered User
 
Ginu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 3,803
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by franchise player View Post
It's not winning anyways... What's your point?
My point is that our fans are knee-jerk and dramatic and it contributes just as much to the problem.

Ginu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2011, 10:44 AM
  #104
Ginu
Registered User
 
Ginu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 3,803
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
None taken.

Please show me what they've done to assemble a contender. All I've seen are quick fixes and panic moves to make 8th place. Where has the proactive planning come in? Please... show me.
They've drafted Price, Subban, Pacioretty, Gallagher, Beaulieu, Tinordi, got Eller, got Bournival, got Gorges, hired a defensive coach in Martin to implement a system that was lacking under the previous coach, to simply lose. I'm sorry, you're right.

Your shortsightedness as a fan is part of the problem. While you see quick fixes and panic moves, what you're not seeing is the youth movement going on behind the scenes. Management is trying to build through the draft as well as sign veterans to complement that group and keep up some level of competition in the mean time. Ironically, it's that same shortsightedness as a fan and the complaining that your team isn't competing for a Stanley Cup that prevents them from going for the full rebuild.

Some of our fans think they're know-it-alls. Yes, we haven't won. Yes, some of the moves haven't worked out. But your "they've done nothing to assemble a contender" argument is crap.

I look forward to your reply.

Best,
Ginu

Ginu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2011, 10:55 AM
  #105
Subban76
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,332
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginu View Post
They've drafted Price, Subban, Pacioretty, Gallagher, Beaulieu, Tinordi, got Eller, got Bournival, got Gorges, hired a defensive coach in Martin to implement a system that was lacking under the previous coach, to simply lose. I'm sorry, you're right.

Your shortsightedness as a fan is part of the problem. While you see quick fixes and panic moves, what you're not seeing is the youth movement going on behind the scenes. Management is trying to build through the draft as well as sign veterans to complement that group and keep up some level of competition in the mean time. Ironically, it's that same shortsightedness as a fan and the complaining that your team isn't competing for a Stanley Cup that prevents them from going for the full rebuild.

Some of our fans think they're know-it-alls. Yes, we haven't won. Yes, some of the moves haven't worked out. But your "they've done nothing to assemble a contender" argument is crap.

I look forward to your reply.

Best,
Ginu
I'm with you on this one. That youth is mostly good hard working kids with a good head and leadership skills.

In 2 years, ALL our big contracts (Gomez, Cammy, Gionta, Kaberle, Markov) will expire, which is not that long and gives time for that youth to develop and reach the NHL. Then you surround them with proper vets and this team could be great. We are not that far, just need a little patience. The pieces are there.

Subban76 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2011, 12:16 PM
  #106
Halifaxhab*
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,219
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
Of course you think it's silly, watching people "fight" for something you have no problem giving away must be odd to you.
I have given nothing away, my family still embrace our language and culture, but we don't feel the need to have it pushed on anyone else. Like many you treat the Canadiens like the Jehovah Witnesses do with everyone else.

Do you enjoy your freedom to speak any language you want? I'm sure you do, and enjoy the freedom to follow any lifestyle or religion you decide on.

You're welcome BTW. I'm just some lowly 19 year Veteran who has never fought for anything.

And I would be very glad to discuss this further over a beer, face to face when I go home soon. But I'm sure a "pure laine" like yourself wouldn't want to have a rational discussion with a "vendu"

Halifaxhab* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2011, 12:22 PM
  #107
Halifaxhab*
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,219
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Subban76 View Post
I'm with you on this one. That youth is mostly good hard working kids with a good head and leadership skills.

In 2 years, ALL our big contracts (Gomez, Cammy, Gionta, Kaberle, Markov) will expire, which is not that long and gives time for that youth to develop and reach the NHL. Then you surround them with proper vets and this team could be great. We are not that far, just need a little patience. The pieces are there.
this, the terms of the deals were not an accident, they hedged their bets and with the youth coming up, that amount of time is what is likely needed before they are capable of playing full time in the NHL.

Not to mention I am sure the pick (I bet a top 10) this year will help us along

Halifaxhab* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2011, 12:41 PM
  #108
Furry
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 30
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThaDevilGirl View Post
I don't know, I never looked up to the Habs and tell myself "Damn, this team really represents me".
You picked the team, the team didn't pick you. Go cheer for a different team ya baby.

Furry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2011, 12:43 PM
  #109
j52
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 284
vCash: 500
I'm old, injured, under 6' tall, under 200 lbs. and won't be at any playoff games this year. The club represents my "fan base" (Whatever that means.)

j52 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2011, 01:15 PM
  #110
icerocket
Registered User
 
icerocket's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Atlantis
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,418
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsl View Post
It's the YOUtube generation. The FACEBOOK, that is, MY face, generation. In fact, there was literally a Myface page, right?

Not surprised at all. There is no separation any more between the event and the fan. The fan becomes the event. It's a world best suited for callow narcissists, who must somehow participate and be seen in every situation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
I call them the Agent Smith generation. Me me me.

All want to be different and special but end-up being all the same.
I love it when the baby boomer generation complains about the newer generation.

Has there ever been a more selfish "me, me, me!" generation? They got theirs and now everyone else has to shut up.

I'm sick of being shown how great this team is when it was all in the past in a 6 team league. I'm sick of being told that I need to wait and we need to rebuild for 100th time while showing pictures of Beliveau and Lafleur on the jumbotron winning yet another Stanley Cup talking about the good old days.

You guys talk about how our generation is spoiled??? You guys talked about the SC going down the "same old road" or whatever in reference to St-Catherines!

icerocket is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2011, 01:25 PM
  #111
Lafleurs Guy
Moderator
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 25,650
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginu View Post
They've drafted Price, Subban, Pacioretty, Gallagher, Beaulieu, Tinordi, got Eller, got Bournival, got Gorges, hired a defensive coach in Martin to implement a system that was lacking under the previous coach, to simply lose. I'm sorry, you're right.
So, let me get this straight.... We've drafted a bunch of players and hired Jacques Martin. This somehow leads you to conclude that we're out there building a winner? Really?

Okay....

Guess what... every freakin' team in the league drafts players and hires coaches. What the hell does that have to do with anything?

Let's look at the actual moves this team has done and the way they've gone about buillding our team.

Players who we've let go for nothing or next to it (off the top of my head) in recent years include: Saku Koivu, Alexei Kovalev, Sheldon Souray, Alex Tanguay, Komisarek, Mike Ribeiro as well as parting ways with younger players such as Lapierre, O'Byrne, Latendresse, S Kostitsyn, M. Grabvowski and others...

That is TERRIBLE asset management.

Next let's look at the players that we have brought on via reactive moves:

Scott Gomez. In one of the worst trades since the lockout we went to the woodshed to get spanked by Glen Sather and give up arguably our best prospect in the process. This one has been done to death but it's still front and center why we are where we are. Giving up prospects for overpaid vets in order to get short term gains is the opposite of being proactive. It is the opposite of what we should've been doing then and what we should be doing now.

Mike Cammaleri and Brian Gionta: Individually both are decent players. Pair them with Gomez and the core we already had though and you have a recipe for 8th place. You sure as hell aren't going to win a cup with the forwards we have. Management just went for the leftovers of other clubs and overpaid for it.

Erik Cole: Again, decent enough individually and would be great if we already had a winning core. Not smart to add him though when you already don't have a great team to begin with. Esp considering his age and the length of that contract. This is a move designed to get us to the playoffs, nothing else. The best that can be said about him is that he's not a smurf and actually plays with some heart.

Matt Schneider, Wiznewski, Thomas Kaberle... patchwork fix after patchwork fix. Fortunately though, we've got a declining Kaberle at 4.5 mil for the next three years and managed to become the laughing stock of the league in the process. And why did we get this guy? Because we were drowning in the standings and are desperate to make 8th place. This move had ZERO to do with winning a cup.

We've had pitiful offense for most of the last dozen or so years (with the exception of one fluke year). Apart from our lottery win with Price we've had ZERO top five picks in 25 years despite having some horrible clubs in that time. We currently have NO scorers in the top 40 and haven't had a top ten scorer since 1986 (We are the ONLY NHL club that existed back then not to be able to do this.) We haven't had a franchise scorer in almost 30 years and without the stellar goaltending that we've had over the past few years we'd be nowhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginu View Post
Your shortsightedness as a fan is part of the problem. While you see quick fixes and panic moves, what you're not seeing is the youth movement going on behind the scenes. Management is trying to build through the draft as well as sign veterans to complement that group and keep up some level of competition in the mean time. Ironically, it's that same shortsightedness as a fan and the complaining that your team isn't competing for a Stanley Cup that prevents them from going for the full rebuild.
What youth movement? Get real man.

Yes, we have some decent prospects. Nowhere have I said that we're a disaster. We're NEVER a disaster. We're usually competing for 8th place... THAT's the problem! We don't have teams that are good enough to win anything but we don't finish low enouh to get top picks. AND we don't DO ANYTHING to get top picks or prospects either because we're too busy going after the Thomas Kaberle's of the world to maintain our mediocre standing.

As for the list of prospects above that you mentioned... Nobody has complained about our scouting system. It's about the only thing we have going for us. Price of course is our best player and we got him in a once in a lifetime lottery draft. Not sure how he falls into the 'proactive moves' category. That was just plain dumb luck. The ONLY move that I can think of that was truly a proactive move was the trade for Gorges and a pick that turned out to be Max. The only other trade that I can think of that could fall under this category (and something for which management should be praised) was keeping Price. I still feel like we didn't get much in return for Halak but at least management made the right call there.

The group that we have in the minors isn't terrible, but it's certainly not great either. You'd have to be blind to see it as an up and coming contending group. There is no franchise player to speak of. Price is no longer a prospect so he doesn't fall into that group. Subban and Max are up and playing pretty well but in our system I don't see anyone who's going to lead us anywhere. I see more of the type of group that we had before... Higgins, Komisarek types who are good but not good enough.

It's great that we're able to draft decent players in the mid rounds... too bad we don't give our scouting group high picks to work with. That would require proactive thinking though and mgmt has not exhibited this in a long freakin' time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginu View Post
Some of our fans think they're know-it-alls. Yes, we haven't won. Yes, some of the moves haven't worked out. But your "they've done nothing to assemble a contender" argument is crap.
Save this kind of crap for somebody else. I've backed up what I've said here. The facts are on my side, not yours. So please leave the personal crap for somebody else.

Lafleurs Guy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2011, 01:26 PM
  #112
Ozymandias
#firetherrien
 
Ozymandias's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hockey Mecca
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,438
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by icerocket View Post
I love it when the baby boomer generation complains about the newer generation.

Has there ever been a more selfish "me, me, me!" generation? They got theirs and now everyone else has to shut up.

I'm sick of being shown how great this team is when it was all in the past in a 6 team league. I'm sick of being told that I need to wait and we need to rebuild for 100th time while showing pictures of Beliveau and Lafleur on the jumbotron winning yet another Stanley Cup talking about the good old days.

You guys talk about how our generation is spoiled??? You guys talked about the SC going down the "same old road" or whatever in reference to St-Catherines!

I'm not a baby-boomer. I was born in the 70's. I saw two cups with my own eyes and one of them was when I was kid, not really what I would call spoiled.

Ozymandias is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2011, 01:34 PM
  #113
Ozymandias
#firetherrien
 
Ozymandias's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hockey Mecca
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,438
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
That is TERRIBLE asset management.
Actually, your whole post is TERRIBLE understanding of what management is asked to accomplish by ownership.

You do know their plan is based on what their boss wants? If the Habs rarely trade pending UFAs, it might be because they aren't allowed to, or actually, they are pragmatic enough to understand they will not meet their boss's goal if they trade them away.

As for the younglings you named who got traded away, their value wasn't high.

You spout your theories of asset management as if its a complicated concept that only illuminated souls as yourself are able to understand. Thing is, its the simplest of concept and most people are aware of it, management in the first place. You do not understand prioritized pragmatism, you only understand what you see when you play Dynasty mode on NHL12, a highly simplistic view of management.

Ozymandias is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2011, 01:51 PM
  #114
Lafleurs Guy
Moderator
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 25,650
vCash: 500
[QUOTE=Ozymandias;41475969] Actually, your whole post is TERRIBLE understanding of what management is asked to accomplish by ownership.

You do know their plan is based on what their boss wants?[/QUOTE]
Absolutley. And the bottom line is that we don't know what ownership wants. We can only conclude based on the decisions made on the ice.

We've seen in the past that many owners (see Harold Ballard) cared about profits and didn't care about winning cups. That could be the case here. OR it could be the case where ownership thinks we're better than what we are.

Either way, they've been clueless as to how to build a winner.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
As for the younglings you named who got traded away, their value wasn't high.

You spout your theories of asset management as if its a complicated concept that only illuminated souls as yourself are able to understand. Thing is, its the simplest of concept and most people are aware of it, management in the first place.
All we can do is evaluate the moves that are made. My criticism is of Habs management and that includes ownership.

I've said many times on here that I'd have no problem with PG continuing to manage the team if it took a different direction. I've also said that we don't know where Molson's head is at. He's a new owner so it's impossbile to know what it's going to be like under him going forward.

Will he believe that we're contenders as we are now or just need one more piece? Or do we need to proactively reconstruct the team? The fact that we went out and got Thomas Kaberle leads me to believe that it's the same old strategy of being just good enough to make the playoffs.

All we can do is evaluate the moves made to bulid the club. And for the better part of 15 years, it's been reactive patchwork fixes that have lead us nowhere. And sadly, it's been that way esp over the past three seasons.

And yeah, giving away all those players for nothing was a great example of asset management... the fact that you believe this just hurts your credibility.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
You do not understand prioritized pragmatism, you only understand what you see when you play Dynasty mode on NHL12, a highly simplistic view of management.
That's right Ozy, stick to the personal insults because you get blown away on the actual facts here.

And it's really ironic that you bring up NHL12 because that's exactly how management is running this team.


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 12-26-2011 at 02:26 PM.
Lafleurs Guy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2011, 01:56 PM
  #115
Schooner Guy
Registered User
 
Schooner Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,667
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Man, this ''represent fan'' idea has gone too far. Enough already.
No kidding! There should be one sole thread on Habs HF Boards called "Whine-fest" where all whining would go. I could see it going up to V6558.0 by April.

Schooner Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:19 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.