HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Bob Gainey now with the team

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-26-2011, 12:50 PM
  #426
Munchausen
Full Time A-hole
 
Munchausen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Stuck in traffic
Posts: 5,330
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I read bits and pieces of your post (sorry it was too long.)

Anyways, yes... Gainey had an air of authority. And for the first part of his tenure it felt nice to have a 'real' GM at the helm. Yes, I think he screwed up in the second half of his tenure but I get what you're saying.

If we are going to replace PG, I hope it's with somebody who's been around and it isn't some guy with no experience.
Yeah sorry about that, I tried to cram too much into it I guess.

The gist of it is I think a GM in Montreal, because of the city's particular history, will never be able to succeed if he cannot buy time by imposing respect from media and fans. You knew a guy like PG, for all the reasons mentioned above, was going to be beaten to a bloody pulp at first mistake. It doesn't mean he couldn't bring success, it just means he probably won't have the opportunity to do so.

Munchausen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2011, 12:52 PM
  #427
MasterDecoy
Carlos Danger
 
MasterDecoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Beijing
Posts: 9,905
vCash: 1707
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
Five years ago and more does not have much to do with today. I agree with SouthernHab 100 percent, the current prospect situation reflects the way Gainey-Gauthier have been dealing.
the conference final was last year.... WITH pacioretty, desharnais, white and subban, if you want to include him, with the big club.

the reality is the hamilton cupboard is empty now because so many graduated from there to play with the habs. it wasn't empty last year and it won't be empty next year.

again, don't let facts stop you from a good rant

MasterDecoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2011, 12:54 PM
  #428
Player 61
#Winning
 
Player 61's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: West Island
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,159
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Player 61
Have you guys read the Gazette today? Jack Todd is called for PG's head page B1. This whole thing is a mess...

Player 61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2011, 01:05 PM
  #429
EllertoKostitsynGoal
Registered User
 
EllertoKostitsynGoal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Mtl
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,055
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
You stated that the youth were carrying the team while the veterans were crapping out. I replied that the veterans were leading in most categories while the under-25s, with the obvious exceptions of Price and Pacioretty, were lagging. Of course, there aren't many under-25 regulars, so I'm referring mainly to Subban and Eller. Call-ups, such as Palushaj, have been undistinguished.
If by categories you mean goals and assists sure Pacioretty has been only good under 25 skater. But since hockey isn't played on the stat sheet I have a hard time beliving Pacioretty has been better than Subban this season. If the Jets games isn't a proof of how many small and unnoticable things Subban (and even Eller who is used in a pretty big defensive role) does to try to hold the patchwork defence together I don't know what is.

EllertoKostitsynGoal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2011, 01:42 PM
  #430
Habs 4 Life
No Excuses
 
Habs 4 Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Montreal
Country: Italy
Posts: 33,033
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs23 View Post
Have you guys read the Gazette today? Jack Todd is called for PG's head page B1. This whole thing is a mess...
Here is the article

http://www.montrealgazette.com/sport...649/story.html

Habs 4 Life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2011, 01:51 PM
  #431
Player 61
#Winning
 
Player 61's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: West Island
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,159
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Player 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
Yep! Thx for the link. Comes at the door, so I'm rare clicking the site. I almost never agree with Todd, but this whole crap load is rocking what has become a mostly stable boat(Language Wars are not good for anybody). We have squeezed ourselves on the West-Island, waking up sleeping Giants is not smart.

Player 61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2011, 02:07 PM
  #432
SouthernHab
Registered User
 
SouthernHab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: USA
Country: United States
Posts: 10,029
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
let's ignore the fact that they have won the calder cup and have two conference finals appearance for a second, and of course they suck. eveybody that's anybody if either with the big club, or injured.

but don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant
For those of you who do not understand what I am saying (this means you and a couple others ), I am talking about this year.

This year.

I am not talking about last year or the years before that. This year.

Can I be more clear that I am talking about this year?

And as far as players like Max Laps, I am not defending or debating the trade. I am simply pointing out that after all of the wheeling and dealing by Gauthier, we ended up with nothing. Yes, nothing and that (and other poor trades and giveaways of players by Gauthier) is translating into Hamilton being depleted............this year.

So yeah, Hamilton was very good last year and in prior seasons. But........not so much this year.

I hope that you understand I am talking about this year. Thanks.

SouthernHab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2011, 02:11 PM
  #433
Player 61
#Winning
 
Player 61's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: West Island
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,159
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Player 61
@SouthernHab I Know exactly what you mean.

Player 61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2011, 02:20 PM
  #434
SouthernHab
Registered User
 
SouthernHab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: USA
Country: United States
Posts: 10,029
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Munchausen View Post
This reflection comes from an interesting discussion I had with a family member over some artery narrowing deliciousness during the holidays and so I thought about trying to extend it over here.

When I say I miss Gainey's presence, I mean his leadership, the quite confidence combined with his glorious past that calmed the drama queens for a few years and allowed him to do his job. When he came out against the boobirds that had made it a national sport to torment Patrice Brisebois and make sure he'd get extra nervous every time it was his turn to touch the puck, you know what I told myself? This guy has some humongous balls. Say what you want, right or wrong, that was a ballsy move, a move I could never see Pierre Gauthier or most of the general population for that matter making. That guy, who I did not really see play much, since I got into hockey around the last time the Habs won a cup, had just earned my respect. That guy was Honest Abe, a very rare personality trait if I can unfortunately say so. I trusted that man. I trusted his character, his integrity. The rest of the crowd, they were already won over, the day he lifted that shiny trophy above his head, the day he lead his team with the same quite leadership, to the biggest achievement possible.

He took some dreadful decisions towards the end of his regime, but I liked the steps he took in the early parts. After it all came to a weird ending, I decided to cut a guy who just lost his daughter some slack. I think people often overlook with some perplexing insensibility what a tragedy like this can do to a man’s focus on the job, I dare you to tell me you wouldn’t react the same way. At that point, we saw and felt a clear cut difference from a guy who just didn’t have much interest left for his pro life, and I’m appalled by the ones who have or would criticize him for that.

Then comes a guy in Pierre Gauthier who, even if I consider myself a guy who isn’t too judgmental in everyday life, I have very little confidence in to right the ship ATM. This isn’t about competence; I think Gauthier has a true passion and relative talent for identifying skills and potential. But he’s also a guy who in his interactions with the media projects arrogance and a complex of superiority which is quite disproportionate to his resume IMO.

You felt, with Bob Gainey, that you were dealing with the only guy left on earth to still honor and cherish all the old knight code of conduct, a guy who would fall on a sword for his peers or the organization he helped make so prestigious. Anybody get that feeling from Pierre Gauthier? Yeah exactly.

I’ve lived in Montreal long enough through both the French and English worlds, which to this day are unfortunately still very different, to know that in this city, in this bipolar, hysteric and often menstruated city, you need to command respect if you want to be able to do your job managing the most storied franchise ever. That nostalgic illusion which will never be brought back to life again, by any living man, because context was completely different at the time, has handicapped this city and its team for so many years.

Montreal got a favorable treatment until the 60s by having first claim on Quebecers, which was fantastic, because it did so much for the culture, by giving heroes to a generation of Quebecers who had very few to look up to. This part I got from talking the subject over with older guys. I haven’t lived it myself of course, but when you go back in History, it feels as though the Canadiens had a say alongside notable political figures in invigorating provincial pride and identity. The CH tattooed heroes were the little guys, your neighbor, who worked at the factory side by side with your uncle Joe in between games. They were a symbol and I get it, with all the obvious and necessary admiration it requires.

Problem is, there is none of that left, it’s gone forever. I really regret not living that historical moment, which was for so many Quebecers much more than just winning a game. They were winning their pride back and I get where the old timers in the media are coming from, even if their rhetoric, to a younger crowd like the one I’m still in, sounds like senility based whining. But they got marked by that History like none of us will have the privilege to be. And the pressure these guys put on the organization, when you take a step back to ponder, is absolutely insane. I live in a somewhat stressful professional environment myself but I don’t think I could make it past a month with the amount of pressure these guys have to endure daily.

And yet, when I look at Pierre Gauthier, right or wrong, I envision a guy who will stab a colleague in the back rather than fall on the sword like the old knight would for him, like the old knight in fact did for him IMO, by taking all of the responsibility and therefore the whole blame in case of failure for the major team makeover, one which might very well have been orchestrated by the guy now in place, because they both knew about to upcoming switch. Bob Gainey is not the kind of man to create a mess and bail out. He’s the man who stood strong through adversity all his life. What he did, to me, is fall on the sword.

You might disagree with me and that’s fine, but I like to think that if I, who I repeat is not at all judgmental in day to day life towards others, feel like there are some serious character flaws that transpire through Gauthier’s press interactions, I assume many others feel this way. This was exacerbated by the reputation that preceded him and the PR nightmare that just ended. Those old timers, the ones longing for the lost purity of what that sport once was, they remembered, they got poked and the bear woke up. Gauthier didn’t see it coming, he didn’t because he’s much more of an outside businessman type than the passionate ambassador others before him were. Judging from his latest blunder, it seems he knows as much about the reality of this city and this province as I do Quantum mechanics.

A guy like that can’t manage a team like this, a team, a fanbase, with so much backstory. He has no authority, and that’s why the hounds were unleashed in record time when he tripped over himself the last few weeks. He got lambasted. Of course, eventually, they all lose immunity, like Gainey did with the usual whiners and the odd heartbroken diva, like F. Gagnon, who started to hold a grudge against the evil monster who tore to pieces his good friend Claude Julien, and who’s also repeating the same over-emotional routine with PG now that his buddy JM was shown the same door (what’s with this guy and his love for coaches anyway).

This has no longer to do with competence I’m afraid, this job is as much if not more about appearances these days, and it will be like so until the old timers get out of the car and hand over the steering-wheel to the next generation. Pierre Gauthier cannot at the current time be given maneuvering room to build through trial and error, he doesn’t have credibility, his personality is a bit repulsive I’m sorry (and a little ashamed) to say, and so I feel the next heir apparent to the throne, who shall be found fast since the king is dying, will need to bring back IMO what Gainey brought, the kind of respect a man like Gainey commanded by all your typical whiners, the ones who want it all and want it now, or the ones who are too blinded by their nostalgia to bother stepping away from the tree blocking their vue from the rest of the forest behind it, a forest made out of a completely new competitive landscape and therefore entirely new and greater challenges.

The GM of the Montreal Canadiens needs to command enough respect, to keep himself away at a safe biting distance and for long enough, from the dogs who think this franchise’s greatness will be magically restored once more Quebecers play for it, ignoring the fact most of them have also become simple businessmen in their approach to their career, same as the rest of “them”, and would therefore probably bring very little of that once magical passion and sacrifice, just like Ribeiro, Theodore, Tanguay and many more have indeed not brought in the past, just like Briere has decided to steer clear of this jungle.

If you’ve read up to this point, I think I can safely say you’re a more patient man than I am, so I’ll stop it here. Agree? Disagree? Why? What are the implications and what’s to come?

I read your post and it was very in depth. And it brought up some very good points. In a nutshell and much shorter......

Gainey leadership skills -- Excellent.

Gainey executive/GM skills -- Poor.

Gauthier leadership skills -- Poor.

Gauthier executive/GM skills -- Poor.

And as a result, the Habs are in the predicament that they are in now.

The Canadiens need a respected leader (does not have to a former Hab) who is also a very wise executive when dealing with personnel matters. That is the task facing Molson now.

SouthernHab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2011, 03:58 PM
  #435
Miller Time
Registered User
 
Miller Time's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 8,167
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
not a fan of Todd, but in this case he captured my feelings to a T...

bringing in Savard to oversee the transition and take the necessary time to find the right leadership for this franchise is exactly what Molson should do.

ditto for moving RC back to assistant (assuming he'd take it) while bringing in coach who can speak french.
wasn't crazy about Carbo, but for the reasons Todd lists, he wouldn't be a bad choice to run the team at least until the new leadership is in place.


Hope Molson reads the paper, and has enough sense to take what is very solid advice... regardless of the source.


and is there any legitimacy to his claim re. Subban/Eller? or is that just one of his made up claims to further stir the pot? if there is any truth to it, :

Miller Time is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2011, 05:01 PM
  #436
MasterDecoy
Carlos Danger
 
MasterDecoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Beijing
Posts: 9,905
vCash: 1707
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
For those of you who do not understand what I am saying (this means you and a couple others ), I am talking about this year.

This year.

I am not talking about last year or the years before that. This year.

Can I be more clear that I am talking about this year?

And as far as players like Max Laps, I am not defending or debating the trade. I am simply pointing out that after all of the wheeling and dealing by Gauthier, we ended up with nothing. Yes, nothing and that (and other poor trades and giveaways of players by Gauthier) is translating into Hamilton being depleted............this year.

So yeah, Hamilton was very good last year and in prior seasons. But........not so much this year.

I hope that you understand I am talking about this year. Thanks.
i got that. here's my second post you may have missed

Quote:
the reality is the hamilton cupboard is empty now because so many graduated from there to play with the habs. it wasn't empty last year and it won't be empty next year.
a farm club cannot always be good. they'll be ebbs, flows, ups and downs whatever you want to call it. it's normal. no need to panic.

MasterDecoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2011, 05:04 PM
  #437
skipp18
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 313
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs23 View Post
Have you guys read the Gazette today? Jack Todd is called for PG's head page B1. This whole thing is a mess...
I've been calling for Todd's head for about 10 years.

skipp18 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2011, 05:05 PM
  #438
MasterDecoy
Carlos Danger
 
MasterDecoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Beijing
Posts: 9,905
vCash: 1707
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
and is there any legitimacy to his claim re. Subban/Eller? or is that just one of his made up claims to further stir the pot? if there is any truth to it, :
here is the quote

Quote:
He also hamstrung Cunneyworth by attaching the word “interim” to his title, then further undermined his coach (because these instructions surely came from the GM) by suggesting that he bench the youngsters Lars Eller and P.K. Subban for the pre-Christmas game in Winnipeg.
sounds like he's guessing. like cunney couldn't be THAT dumb... it has to be gauthier

MasterDecoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2011, 05:07 PM
  #439
MasterDecoy
Carlos Danger
 
MasterDecoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Beijing
Posts: 9,905
vCash: 1707
^ should have added there at the end of this post

MasterDecoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2011, 05:45 PM
  #440
Lafleurs Guy
Registered User
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20,858
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by skipp18 View Post
I've been calling for Todd's head for about 10 years.
Aside from this particular topic...

Jack Todd is an embarrassment to journalism. I completely agree with you, he should've been fired long ago.

Back to the topic at hand.

Lafleurs Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2011, 06:16 PM
  #441
Ghostki
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 156
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
Gainey is worse than Gauthier.

I don't want either of them making roster moves.
Kinda agree on the last part, but from what i've seen of PG, i would tend to disagree on the first one, and that says alot. At least Gainey has history with the team and commands a certain respect.

Ghostki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2011, 06:35 PM
  #442
Teufelsdreck
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 14,264
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by EllertoKostitsynGoal View Post
If by categories you mean goals and assists sure Pacioretty has been only good under 25 skater. But since hockey isn't played on the stat sheet I have a hard time beliving Pacioretty has been better than Subban this season. If the Jets games isn't a proof of how many small and unnoticable things Subban (and even Eller who is used in a pretty big defensive role) does to try to hold the patchwork defence together I don't know what is.
We mustn't ignore the stat sheet while we're looking at style points. Believe me, I notice Subban. I don't see him holding the D together. He gets extra minutes more for his offensive skils, He still has much to learn to become an all-around player. So does Eller. That doesn't mean I'm overlooking their ability but I'm not satisfied with their production. Some day they'll stop disappointing me the way they do now.

Teufelsdreck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2011, 06:44 PM
  #443
Teufelsdreck
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 14,264
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
I infer from this that the Habs should travel faster than the speed of light and thereby reverse time. Perhaps he would settle on the status quo at the time Jacques Martin was coach and the Habs were only 2 points out of a playoff spot. His column may click with some posters but it's well to remember that Todd's hockey knowledge would fit in a thimble.

Teufelsdreck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2011, 07:49 PM
  #444
Giddens
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 142
vCash: 500
What if Molson is the problem?

Am I the only to think that maybe Geoff Molson is the problem here? Maybe he is an immature ***** (was certainly born with a silver spoon in his mouth) who sees the Habs as his toy. Maybe he pressured Gauthier to fire Martin. Gauthier resisted the first push and ended up just firing Pearn. Second push he had to fire Martin to save his own job.

I don't find the events of the past 3 months to "on character" for Gauthier.

Maybe Gillett was a much better owner- one that did not wish to meddle with hockey operations.

Giddens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2011, 08:46 PM
  #445
habtastic
Registered User
 
habtastic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Mumbai via MTL
Country: India
Posts: 9,233
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Giddens View Post
Am I the only to think that maybe Geoff Molson is the problem here? Maybe he is an immature ***** (was certainly born with a silver spoon in his mouth) who sees the Habs as his toy. Maybe he pressured Gauthier to fire Martin. Gauthier resisted the first push and ended up just firing Pearn. Second push he had to fire Martin to save his own job.

I don't find the events of the past 3 months to "on character" for Gauthier.

Maybe Gillett was a much better owner- one that did not wish to meddle with hockey operations.
First of all, it's very odd how the current opinion is that JM was the bestest coach ever and we are all devastated to lose him. I think I'm one of the few who actually defended him as a coach (not retroactively) and then during the last 10-15 games started getting impatient that he didn't seem to be reacting to anything. This entire board basically screamed "FIRE JAQUES MARTIN ASAP!". The fact it's now looked at as a mistake in pure hindsight and maybe it still isn't a mistake, so in so far as Molson forcing Gauthier's hand, that what pretty much everyone on this board WANTED. Either way, we don't know what happened, but everyone in the hockey world said JM's days were numbered whether he was a good coach or not.

Maybe there was a good reason to fire Pearn, I can neither say that he helped or that he didn't. Not sure it made a difference. Pretty much everything we're seeing now is a result of the on-ice product and I don't see Gauthier as trying to save his skin as most people do. He made the changes most people wanted and actually appointed a controversial coach. In no way has he made is easy on himself. I so glad he signed Markov despite the setback. We talk about elite players, well him and Carey are elite and Gainey/Gauthier kept them here. Because we are losing everyone is biasing their opinions. There were so many appreciation threads and many for the guys Gautheir brought in. There weren't these concerns of not having a good enough team overall. It's only now that people have become so enlightened.

To point to Molson as toying around? Silver spoon in his mouth? A bit much. Maybe he's Batman. Sorry, l'homme chauve-souris. Molson is reacting to tonnnns of media heat and I'm actually angry with him about how he bent over to please the mob instead of writing a press release that talked more about winning (sort of how Gainey would tell the idiots to shut up). Aside from that, how can you fault him? He's been a good owner and as much as I actually DON'T think Gauthier did a bad job, Molson seems to be the only guy who might can him like everyone, again, wants.

The past 3 months haven't been normal for any of these players. A lot of injuries have lead to, as Pierre Houde often says "un boule de neige". Things are spiralling out of control when at the start they weren't so bad.

I will be perceived as crazy, but I still believe in all the players, I don't think Cammy is whiny and upset (just in a massive funk), I think Pleks is just fine but can't play his game with useless wingers, Kaberle isn't half as bad as people are saying (our PP is at least watchable), Eller IS ready for the big show, Gionta and Gomez out for so long HAS hurt us and Gauthier's moves just look bad in a bad season where a lot of things go wrong. It's easy to say he should have done things differently but if you go back to the day of and circumstance under which he made all his moves, contextually he's done a good job. Molson wrote a letter about Max. That's all he's done so far until now when you're alleging that he's the one who's behind everything (which btw is what everyone wanted).

habtastic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2011, 10:04 PM
  #446
hockeyfan2k11
Registered User
 
hockeyfan2k11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 9,131
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostki View Post
Kinda agree on the last part, but from what i've seen of PG, i would tend to disagree on the first one, and that says alot. At least Gainey has history with the team and commands a certain respect.
I meant in terms of GM ability and competency.

hockeyfan2k11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2011, 10:14 PM
  #447
E = CH²
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Country: Sri Lanka
Posts: 15,976
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Munchausen View Post
When I say I miss Gainey's presence, I mean his leadership, the quite confidence combined with his glorious past that calmed the drama queens for a few years and allowed him to do his job.
That is the part I miss about Gainey at the helm as well. Even if it very well might be the only thing I miss about him being GM. It is true that he commanded respect. He wasn't some vegetarian weirdo living in Vermont. He is the former captain of the greatest habs team of all time. A guy who bled bleu blanc rouge and had success as a player and as a GM (although not in Mtl). For all his flaws, Gainey brought that to the table. And that is worth a lot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Munchausen View Post
He took some dreadful decisions towards the end of his regime, but I liked the steps he took in the early parts. After it all came to a weird ending, I decided to cut a guy who just lost his daughter some slack. I think people often overlook with some perplexing insensibility what a tragedy like this can do to a man’s focus on the job, I dare you to tell me you wouldn’t react the same way. At that point, we saw and felt a clear cut difference from a guy who just didn’t have much interest left for his pro life, and I’m appalled by the ones who have or would criticize him for that.
Can't fault a guy for not being focused after something like that. However... you can fault him for not letting someone else take charge and replace him if he couldn't adequately do the job. You can fault the rest of the organization for not giving him a mandatory break from it all. While tragic, his personal loss shouldn't have affected the habs as it did. That's on Gainey, Boivin, Gillett, Molson, etc.


Quote:
Then comes a guy in Pierre Gauthier who, even if I consider myself a guy who isn’t too judgmental in everyday life, I have very little confidence in to right the ship ATM. This isn’t about competence; I think Gauthier has a true passion and relative talent for identifying skills and potential. But he’s also a guy who in his interactions with the media projects arrogance and a complex of superiority which is quite disproportionate to his resume IMO.

You felt, with Bob Gainey, that you were dealing with the only guy left on earth to still honor and cherish all the old knight code of conduct, a guy who would fall on a sword for his peers or the organization he helped make so prestigious. Anybody get that feeling from Pierre Gauthier? Yeah exactly.
Probably not, no.

Quote:
I’ve lived in Montreal long enough through both the French and English worlds, which to this day are unfortunately still very different, to know that in this city, in this bipolar, hysteric and often menstruated city, you need to command respect if you want to be able to do your job managing the most storied franchise ever. That nostalgic illusion which will never be brought back to life again, by any living man, because context was completely different at the time, has handicapped this city and its team for so many years.
True. And respect takes a while to acquire and only a few instants to lose as evidenced by the recent turmoil.

Quote:
Montreal got a favorable treatment until the 60s by having first claim on Quebecers, which was fantastic, because it did so much for the culture, by giving heroes to a generation of Quebecers who had very few to look up to. This part I got from talking the subject over with older guys. I haven’t lived it myself of course, but when you go back in History, it feels as though the Canadiens had a say alongside notable political figures in invigorating provincial pride and identity. The CH tattooed heroes were the little guys, your neighbor, who worked at the factory side by side with your uncle Joe in between games. They were a symbol and I get it, with all the obvious and necessary admiration it requires.
Meh, the french rule did almost nothing for the habs (unless you meant something else by favourable treatment, in which case do explain). Réjean Houle, I believe, is the best player the habs ever got out of it. Farm systems and money is what made the habs what they were. Bruins got Bobby Orr when he was like 11 or something and quickly bought his rights. We had more access to one of the deepest pool of player in the world in Québec so that helped us. But the rule itself did almost nothing.

Quote:
Problem is, there is none of that left, it’s gone forever. I really regret not living that historical moment, which was for so many Quebecers much more than just winning a game. They were winning their pride back and I get where the old timers in the media are coming from, even if their rhetoric, to a younger crowd like the one I’m still in, sounds like senility based whining. But they got marked by that History like none of us will have the privilege to be. And the pressure these guys put on the organization, when you take a step back to ponder, is absolutely insane. I live in a somewhat stressful professional environment myself but I don’t think I could make it past a month with the amount of pressure these guys have to endure daily.
Funny thing is.. if the habs went for francophone players at every turn and anytime they can, we'd be a much much much better team now. We'd have grabbed a guy like Brière on waivers, signed St-Louis, kept Ribeiro, and could possibly have drafted the likes of Perron, Bergeron and Giroux. There is still a place for the habs to go back to what they were. I've seen Serge Savard make that point multiple times. There are still decent Québec born hockey players out there. I find it inexcusable that we only have one amateur scout for the LHJMQ and that his voice has no weight when it comes to drafting players (a rumor). Good Québec born players and francophones playing in the Q should never fall to other teams in the 2nd round or late first if we can pick them first unless we're convinced the player is average and a real gem is available instead. But then again, we don't need francophone players, or even a franco GM, heck maybe we don't need a franco coach. But we damn well better ****ing win. Remove the french players, remove the french coach, and keep losing while playing a boring style ? That's not gonna go over well.



Quote:
And yet, when I look at Pierre Gauthier, right or wrong, I envision a guy who will stab a colleague in the back rather than fall on the sword like the old knight would for him, like the old knight in fact did for him IMO, by taking all of the responsibility and therefore the whole blame in case of failure for the major team makeover, one which might very well have been orchestrated by the guy now in place, because they both knew about to upcoming switch. Bob Gainey is not the kind of man to create a mess and bail out. He’s the man who stood strong through adversity all his life. What he did, to me, is fall on the sword.
That's speculation at best. The thing is, a lot of this falls on Gainey anyway because IF, as you say, he indeed was that honorable and took all the blame on himself... then why did he pick a replacement that was half the man he is when Yzerman was available ? Clearly, language doesn't matter anymore so why not Yzerman then ? Why did he pick the guy who would let others take the blame. Did he think that was behavior worthy of the Canadiens GM ? That such despicable character traits would make PG a suitable candidate for the job ?

I'm not a huge fan of Gauthier's personality either but at this point, I'm lumping both Gauthier and Gainey in the same boat. At one point Gainey was the big boss, and Gauthier was pissing in his ear. Now it's the opposite. Just a simple role reversal. Both are to blame for this.

I have respect for Gainey as a man, as a player and I also like what he did as a GM in Minnesota and Dallas. And he was ok in the first half of his tenure but I don't miss him. I don't miss the hopelessness of seeing the habs ever take the next step. The hope isn't there with Gauthier either, but there won't be an illusion about it because no one will cut PG slack, not like they did with Gainey. Gainey was there messing it up for too long unfortunately. That's precisely the respect he commanded that actually ended up hurting us in the end because no one but drama queens like me would ever dare question him. He'd still be there if he hadn't resigned on his own.

E = CH² is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2011, 11:31 PM
  #448
MasterDecoy
Carlos Danger
 
MasterDecoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Beijing
Posts: 9,905
vCash: 1707
Quote:
Originally Posted by habtastic View Post
First of all, it's very odd how the current opinion is that JM was the bestest coach ever and we are all devastated to lose him. I think I'm one of the few who actually defended him as a coach (not retroactively) and then during the last 10-15 games started getting impatient that he didn't seem to be reacting to anything. This entire board basically screamed "FIRE JAQUES MARTIN ASAP!". The fact it's now looked at as a mistake in pure hindsight and maybe it still isn't a mistake, so in so far as Molson forcing Gauthier's hand, that what pretty much everyone on this board WANTED. Either way, we don't know what happened, but everyone in the hockey world said JM's days were numbered whether he was a good coach or not.

Maybe there was a good reason to fire Pearn, I can neither say that he helped or that he didn't. Not sure it made a difference. Pretty much everything we're seeing now is a result of the on-ice product and I don't see Gauthier as trying to save his skin as most people do. He made the changes most people wanted and actually appointed a controversial coach. In no way has he made is easy on himself. I so glad he signed Markov despite the setback. We talk about elite players, well him and Carey are elite and Gainey/Gauthier kept them here. Because we are losing everyone is biasing their opinions. There were so many appreciation threads and many for the guys Gautheir brought in. There weren't these concerns of not having a good enough team overall. It's only now that people have become so enlightened.

To point to Molson as toying around? Silver spoon in his mouth? A bit much. Maybe he's Batman. Sorry, l'homme chauve-souris. Molson is reacting to tonnnns of media heat and I'm actually angry with him about how he bent over to please the mob instead of writing a press release that talked more about winning (sort of how Gainey would tell the idiots to shut up). Aside from that, how can you fault him? He's been a good owner and as much as I actually DON'T think Gauthier did a bad job, Molson seems to be the only guy who might can him like everyone, again, wants.

The past 3 months haven't been normal for any of these players. A lot of injuries have lead to, as Pierre Houde often says "un boule de neige". Things are spiralling out of control when at the start they weren't so bad.

I will be perceived as crazy, but I still believe in all the players, I don't think Cammy is whiny and upset (just in a massive funk), I think Pleks is just fine but can't play his game with useless wingers, Kaberle isn't half as bad as people are saying (our PP is at least watchable), Eller IS ready for the big show, Gionta and Gomez out for so long HAS hurt us and Gauthier's moves just look bad in a bad season where a lot of things go wrong. It's easy to say he should have done things differently but if you go back to the day of and circumstance under which he made all his moves, contextually he's done a good job. Molson wrote a letter about Max. That's all he's done so far until now when you're alleging that he's the one who's behind everything (which btw is what everyone wanted).
i agree with your post.

i am also one of the few that didn't want martin fired.

this year, everything that could go wrong, has gone wrong... injuries, tons of them and in the worst places, gauthier planning against those injuries but at some point, you cannot replace 5-6 regulars and not expect to take a hit in the standings. and the bottom line is martin had us 2 games above .500 at the time of his firing. how many team would be able to survive - not only survive but have a positive record - with half their defense on the IR and their replacements having 0 (that's a zero) NHL experience? "blah blah crosby byslma god blah blah". when the pens lost crosby, they lost their first line center, not half of their d-corp. when they had crosby and malkin out, they bumped staal (already a #1B type of center to begin with) to the first line and the whole team played a style that would make martin's system look positively offensive. they could do that because they had no other major injuries in other parts of their roster and that, like us, they teach their players to be responsible two-way players. oh, and surprise, they folded in the first round. so i guess their season was a disaster and that they should fire their coach because they didn't win the cup

im with miller time when i say that between the two of them, gauthier is the one deserving more heat and in one of my previous posts, i've pretty much taken the jack todd line (before his column, booyah) that this a-hole needed to be fired. not because of his trade, signings or anything like that. but because he has created this french coach firestorm aaaaaaall by hisself with noooooo help from anybody. that, plus he has proven that he will fire - at the worst of times too - anybody to save his own ass

that i would like more permanency in the coaching and general manager position for once, is one thing, but i also think that martin had been doing a good job. less so this year, but still not so bad that he needed to be fired, right away. you can argue that he's a bad playoff coach, i disagree but understand the argument. but the team and the farm is full to the brink, of two-way players and i can hardly think of a better coach to utilize those two-way players than martin. some say we have the talent to be play a more offensive style. i respectfully disagree and im positive i'll be proven right the rest of the season.

now the situation is so damn bad that we must have yet another re-tool on top of another complete replacement of management. the ultimate irony is that canadiens fans and the media doesn't tolerate losing, the one thing we probably need to do this season to be able to steer the ship properly for next season because at this point i don't think it can be steered properly this season.

so, the circus begins anew...

MasterDecoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2011, 11:42 PM
  #449
24stanleycups*
24-6=18,goodluck lol
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Nova Scotia
Country: Canada
Posts: 564
vCash: 500
good times

24stanleycups* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-27-2011, 10:15 AM
  #450
Munchausen
Full Time A-hole
 
Munchausen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Stuck in traffic
Posts: 5,330
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
Meh, the french rule did almost nothing for the habs (unless you meant something else by favourable treatment, in which case do explain). Réjean Houle, I believe, is the best player the habs ever got out of it. Farm systems and money is what made the habs what they were. Bruins got Bobby Orr when he was like 11 or something and quickly bought his rights. We had more access to one of the deepest pool of player in the world in Québec so that helped us. But the rule itself did almost nothing.
I meant to say that, from what I understand, before there was an amateur draft put in place, because it was easier for them to pick from the local pool, by creating local farm systems, on top of having territorial rights (50 mile radius from the arena) it was easy to create a strong sense of pride and belonging for the Montrealers, with this team that was historically built for the French-Canadian market, something that is increasingly difficult today. That doesn't have to do with the French rule though. It was a proactive move to ensure they would get easier access to local talent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
Funny thing is.. if the habs went for francophone players at every turn and anytime they can, we'd be a much much much better team now. We'd have grabbed a guy like Brière on waivers, signed St-Louis, kept Ribeiro, and could possibly have drafted the likes of Perron, Bergeron and Giroux. There is still a place for the habs to go back to what they were. I've seen Serge Savard make that point multiple times. There are still decent Québec born hockey players out there. I find it inexcusable that we only have one amateur scout for the LHJMQ and that his voice has no weight when it comes to drafting players (a rumor). Good Québec born players and francophones playing in the Q should never fall to other teams in the 2nd round or late first if we can pick them first unless we're convinced the player is average and a real gem is available instead. But then again, we don't need francophone players, or even a franco GM, heck maybe we don't need a franco coach. But we damn well better ****ing win. Remove the french players, remove the french coach, and keep losing while playing a boring style ? That's not gonna go over well.
There cannot be a linear approach to this. I'm not convinced Ribeiro becomes the player he now is if he's not forcefully kicked in the butt and taken out of his comfort zone. Danny Brière couldn't give a rat's ass about this team and its insane fans as proven when he got to UFA status. And when it comes to trading, other teams see us coming a mile away, putting us at risk of getting fleeced.

The only thing on this front I criticize the Habs for is not having enough full time scouts for the Quebec territory. We should have more than anyone, we should spend a ridiculous amount of time evaluating the local pool, that means our head scout as well, it should become a priority, there is no logical explaination for not doing so.

But when every team passes on Patrice Bergeron, it's not because nobody saw him play, it's because nobody thinks he'll amount to much (relatively speaking). And when the Habs pass on David Perron, it's because they think Pacioretty's going to be the better player, which should always be the priority at the draft. We cannot use the excuse of not having seen a local talent enough to properly evaluate him, however, we need to understand every other team has the same access to those players in the end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
That's speculation at best. The thing is, a lot of this falls on Gainey anyway because IF, as you say, he indeed was that honorable and took all the blame on himself... then why did he pick a replacement that was half the man he is when Yzerman was available ? Clearly, language doesn't matter anymore so why not Yzerman then ? Why did he pick the guy who would let others take the blame. Did he think that was behavior worthy of the Canadiens GM ? That such despicable character traits would make PG a suitable candidate for the job ?
It is speculation I'll give you that, but based on Gainey's character, which scenario has the most weight? Him f***ing us over and bailing out, or making it easier on his protege to buy a bit of time? The reason he chose him, is probably that he held him in higher regard than we do. He might be a good manager, he might even be a good person, he's just dreadful on the PR front, and that was my whole point. He doesn't inspire confidence. A guy who isn't PR savvy cannot lead this franchise for very long because he's going to be eaten alive as soon as he trips, which is exactly what happened recently. And you cannot manage an organization with zero breathing room, nobody can, every GM out there makes mistakes, it's over the long run you can evaluate the progress, not on a move by move basis. But a guy like Pierre Gauther, hated by every journalist in town, not connecting with his fanbase, he'll barely pass the starting line before getting the boot. I clearly mentioned that it's not about who he is, it's about who he appears to be. PR is everything in this city.

Munchausen is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:13 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.