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RD Jacob Trouba - US NTDP, USHL (2012, 9th overall, Winnipeg)

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Old
12-28-2011, 03:29 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by ottawah View Post
Just take a look from last year. 10 CHL players taken before a single USHL player. And the total count from the first round was 3 USHL players vs 20 CHL players. 2010 saw five players in the first round from USHL vs 17 CHL players (including the first 8 choices).
2009 five from USHL in the first round.

This logic is mind bottling.

Let's see...

CHL = 59 teams.
USHL = 16 teams.

You are gonna blow me away and tell me that...more players are drafted out of the CHL?! Whoa Hammer, don't hurt me with this one.

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12-28-2011, 03:38 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Rabid Ranger View Post
Here's the rosters from last year's U18s:


Granted, the U.S. has a distinct advantage in that tourney, but you don't think given the results over the past three years the USNTDP (at least the U18 team), if kept together could compete well in say the OHL?
Absolutely I agree, 100%. Keep them together another two years and they would.

But that is the point. Players in the CHL play against a higher level of talent night in and out. Heck, the b est CHL players do not even get in that extra two years, they are in many cases already dominating in the NHL. Players generally do not step right from the NDTP to the NHL even at the lowest level, much less what CHL players do. In league play its safe to say Trouba will not play against the talent level of Yakapov, Shieffle, strome on a consistent basis. He gets to at internationals only.

Personally I've had the chance to see Ceci shut down the like of Sheiffle, Yakapov, strome while producing a ppg pace against very good defenses on the other side. I'm not saying when all is said and done who will be the better D man, nor who will be chosen first, but that given the choice, I'd always lean towards the leagues that consistently produced far more NHL products.

Heck, we have seen it in Ottawa choosing Brian Lee over CHL D man of the year Marc Stall. That draft choice is still haunting us ..... And that was a choice over potential vs great now.

Just remember, its been 4 years since an American who was not playing CHL was chosen in the top 10. If Trouba does it it will be the first time in 4 years, and certainly good on him.

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12-28-2011, 03:40 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by DynamoAO View Post
So basically, your question reads, "Does anyone really think that a bunch of 17 year old kids who have played maybe two years together, tops, can compete with a team full of players who are older, more experienced and have been playing together, sometimes for four years?"

Oh, that's a great question, I'll get back to you on that.
Exactly. You agree with me, thank you.

Thats the point, CHL players play in a superior league, which you are admitting with your statement.

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12-28-2011, 04:37 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by ottawah View Post
Exactly. You agree with me, thank you.

Thats the point, CHL players play in a superior league, which you are admitting with your statement.
Uhhhhh, no I am not. I'm saying it's pretty pointless(to put it nicely), to compare a team of players who are under the age of 18 to a team from the CHL. There's nothing about superiority in that statement at all. You must not be sure of your opinions if you are going to strawman that badly.

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12-28-2011, 04:59 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by DynamoAO View Post
Uhhhhh, no I am not. I'm saying it's pretty pointless(to put it nicely), to compare a team of players who are under the age of 18 to a team from the CHL. There's nothing about superiority in that statement at all. You must not be sure of your opinions if you are going to strawman that badly.
Again, you are agreeing with me.

My statement is simply that the CHL teams provide a better opponent night in and out than Trouba will be facing, and your statement corroborates that. I agree its unfair to compare for the reasons you say, but the draft is not about fairness its about who is better. If a league is better at producing NHL players and has more talent top to bottom (which you seem to be agreeing with), then I would tend to lean towards players from that league as being more prepared for the next step. That all I said.

Look, short of exhibition between the leagues, all we do have is opinions. If people are of the opinion the US National Development program plays stronger talent night in and out than CHL teams, thats your opinion. I personally do not think so. Even if you agree with that statement, you can also have the opinion that playing inferior opponents is a better route to the NHL, then again, thats your opinion. Again, I do not think so.

My opinion, as stated is that drafting the strongest players from the strongest leagues will net you players with a better chance to play at the next level. Not necessarily the best chance, but a better chance.

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12-28-2011, 05:01 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by ottawah View Post
Heck, we have seen it in Ottawa choosing Brian Lee over CHL D man of the year Marc Stall. That draft choice is still haunting us ..... And that was a choice over potential vs great now.
Yeah, but we have seen it go the opposite way in Ottawa as well. Erik Karlsson was chosen out the Swedish J20 league over a bunch of CHL defensemen, and I think most would agree that the CHL is a superior league to Sweden's J20. Karlsson was chosen largely for his skills and potential, not for the league he was playing in, and I doubt any of you Sens fans regret that choice now.

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12-28-2011, 05:07 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by ottawah View Post
Again, you are agreeing with me.

My statement is simply that the CHL teams provide a better opponent night in and out than Trouba will be facing, and your statement corroborates that. I agree its unfair to compare for the reasons you say, but the draft is not about fairness its about who is better. If a league is better at producing NHL players and has more talent top to bottom (which you seem to be agreeing with), then I would tend to lean towards players from that league as being more prepared for the next step. That all I said.

Look, short of exhibition between the leagues, all we do have is opinions. If people are of the opinion the US National Development program plays stronger talent night in and out than CHL teams, thats your opinion. I personally do not think so. Even if you agree with that statement, you can also have the opinion that playing inferior opponents is a better route to the NHL, then again, thats your opinion. Again, I do not think so.

My opinion, as stated is that drafting the strongest players from the strongest leagues will net you players with a better chance to play at the next level. Not necessarily the best chance, but a better chance.
Either you don't understand what I am saying or you don't understand the schedule that the NTDP plays. I'll just leave it at that.

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12-28-2011, 06:27 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by DynamoAO View Post
Either you don't understand what I am saying or you don't understand the schedule that the NTDP plays. I'll just leave it at that.
So to be clear, you are saying that the schedule the NTDP plays is just as good as CHL teams play, that the teams are equivalent? Honestly, a yes or no answer would go a long ways to showing my your opinion, because at this point I am still unsure.

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12-28-2011, 07:10 PM
  #34
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Very impressed with him. If we start a re-build I would love to trade Lubo away for a pick to get him. My favorite player of the tournament thus far.

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12-28-2011, 07:30 PM
  #35
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Very impressed with him. If we start a re-build I would love to trade Lubo away for a pick to get him. My favorite player of the tournament thus far.
How'd he look today? I missed the game and saw that he was -2. But also saw that he put up 5 SOG. Did he play well?

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12-28-2011, 08:40 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ottawah View Post
So to be clear, you are saying that the schedule the NTDP plays is just as good as CHL teams play, that the teams are equivalent? Honestly, a yes or no answer would go a long ways to showing my your opinion, because at this point I am still unsure.
27 USHL Games (includes exhibitions)
12 NCAA Division I Games
5 NCAA Division III Games
3 International Tournaments

http://www.usahockey.com/USANTDP/def...1_01&ID=233680

Its not a bad of a schedule as you make it out to be. Nearly half of the USHL games are against the top 6 teams in the league as of today.

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12-28-2011, 09:16 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by SPORTSMANIAC View Post
27 USHL Games (includes exhibitions)
12 NCAA Division I Games
5 NCAA Division III Games
3 International Tournaments

http://www.usahockey.com/USANTDP/def...1_01&ID=233680

Its not a bad of a schedule as you make it out to be. Nearly half of the USHL games are against the top 6 teams in the league as of today.
Personally I'd say only the div 1 games are CHL caliber. Even then some of the div 1 schools are a bit suspect, but they do play a number of top programs. Currently 1-5 against div 1 schools.

Of the twelve games this is what they play as currently ranked :

20, 15, 6, NR, NR, NR, NR, NR, 3, 16, NR, NR

Only 5 opponents ranked top 20, and only 2 top ten.

Now to be honest, I agree its hardly fair to compare the two (and the scores obviously show it, div 1 is clearly better based on record). But if you look at other threads the general consensus is the cream of the div 1 crop (top 10) are equivalent with CHL. I find that a fairly fair statement to make. I think no one here disagrees that USHL and Div 3 is definitely below CHL play.

So, and again no offense to Trouba, but playing 3 games against CHL level talent makes it harder to judge him compared to guys who have played up to 200 games against that level of talent. It does not mean he is as good, its just that the scouts have a lot less to go on than CHL regulars.

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12-28-2011, 09:45 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ottawah View Post
Personally I'd say only the div 1 games are CHL caliber. Even then some of the div 1 schools are a bit suspect, but they do play a number of top programs. Currently 1-5 against div 1 schools.

Of the twelve games this is what they play as currently ranked :

20, 15, 6, NR, NR, NR, NR, NR, 3, 16, NR, NR

Only 5 opponents ranked top 20, and only 2 top ten.

Now to be honest, I agree its hardly fair to compare the two (and the scores obviously show it, div 1 is clearly better based on record). But if you look at other threads the general consensus is the cream of the div 1 crop (top 10) are equivalent with CHL. I find that a fairly fair statement to make. I think no one here disagrees that USHL and Div 3 is definitely below CHL play.

So, and again no offense to Trouba, but playing 3 games against CHL level talent makes it harder to judge him compared to guys who have played up to 200 games against that level of talent. It does not mean he is as good, its just that the scouts have a lot less to go on than CHL regulars.
For devil advocate I can take Cody Ceci and say he has faced Erie, Kingston etc, not the top of the line teams in the OHL.

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12-28-2011, 11:52 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by nanzenkills View Post
How'd he look today? I missed the game and saw that he was -2. But also saw that he put up 5 SOG. Did he play well?
Very well. +/- is beyond misleading. He finished his checks, he marked his man well, he rushed the puck up the ice, QB'd the powerplay, dished out big hits, had quite a few takeaways. His compete level was the highest among all the American players.

Honestly, just in this tournament I've been more impressed with him than I have been with Murray.

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12-28-2011, 11:59 PM
  #40
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Ottawah, you're ruining this thread, if you want to make an NCAA/CHL argument go start a thread. This thread is about Jacob Trouba, not your stupid bias.

Back on topic, I am loving this kid. Hopefully he goes to Anaheim or to a team that really needs a defenseman of his ilk.

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12-29-2011, 12:04 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by nanzenkills View Post
How'd he look today? I missed the game and saw that he was -2. But also saw that he put up 5 SOG. Did he play well?
He was the most consistent defenseman throughout the game. He played good defense and had good stick work. He appears to be really strong because he manhandled players in the corners. He had some good offensive plays too, but his defense stuck out the most.

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12-29-2011, 12:12 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by nanzenkills View Post
How'd he look today? I missed the game and saw that he was -2. But also saw that he put up 5 SOG. Did he play well?
Best US defenseman by a good margin. Both the goals he was on the ice for he had no fault in. First one, Forbort turns it over at the blue line and then dogs it getting back allowing his man to get behind him for a breakaway pass and goal (flubbed shot on breakaway went in. Bad luck for Gibson/Good break for Finland). Second goal was on Forbort/Gibson again. Forbort loses his man along the wall and gets beat to the front. Gibson went for the poke and should have covered the puck but didn't and it got poked in. Another funky goal.

Trouba should be on the top pair. He's earning the minutes in the first 2 games. It doesn't hurt that Clendening has clearly showed he can't handle it.

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12-29-2011, 12:55 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by nafsregnar21 View Post
Ottawah, you're ruining this thread, if you want to make an NCAA/CHL argument go start a thread. This thread is about Jacob Trouba, not your stupid bias.

Back on topic, I am loving this kid. Hopefully he goes to Anaheim or to a team that really needs a defenseman of his ilk.
First I was like when I saw you tell Ottawah off.

Then I was like when you said you hope he goes to Anaheim.

5 star post sir.

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12-29-2011, 01:08 AM
  #44
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Andrew Ebbet! Yes! What a game!

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12-29-2011, 01:30 AM
  #45
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First I was like when I saw you tell Ottawah off.

Then I was like when you said you hope he goes to Anaheim.

5 star post sir.
Au contraire to what you might think, I am a fan of the Ducks. Notice my location, they are just my second favorite team. And looking at their prospects, they could use more defensemen in their system and if Trouba goes there, I'd be ecstatic, another Michigan guy for the Ducks.

PS, it's madam.

Plus I hate when a thread goes off topic by homers contributing nothing to the discussion.


Last edited by nafsregnar27: 12-29-2011 at 04:03 AM.
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12-29-2011, 01:31 AM
  #46
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Andrew Ebbet! Yes! What a game!
Huh? Wrong thread.

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12-29-2011, 03:12 AM
  #47
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Kid is the real deal, IDK how much offensive upside he has, but incredibly high defensive IQ, gonna be a beast. Would love for the Ducks to grab a 2nd first and grab him

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12-29-2011, 08:50 AM
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i hope come draft day he sinks like the titanic and ends up being taken by my team the Wild, not to say he isn't good which he is best US dman this tourney but i just want him on the Wild.

at least elite prospect has his birth city listed as Rochester MN which is where i live, so it would just be awesome to have him.

what the CHL rod polisher doesn't get is that when scouting a 17 years old and why he might be taken ahead of some CHL players is because scouts have to project what he might become, sometimes they get it right some times they get it wrong.

i don't get why we can't have two good developmental programs, no arguing that CHL produces some of the best players but hell its not like the US programs haven't produced some good talent.

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12-29-2011, 09:47 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by nafsregnar21 View Post
Ottawah, you're ruining this thread, if you want to make an NCAA/CHL argument go start a thread. This thread is about Jacob Trouba, not your stupid bias.

Back on topic, I am loving this kid. Hopefully he goes to Anaheim or to a team that really needs a defenseman of his ilk.
Last post then.

My original post was how it would harder to judge Trouba because he did not play in the same caliber of league as the other D draft prospects, which people took offense to, and turned it into a CHL vs US thread. So the fact is I stared simply by discussing Trouba, but his cheer leaders did not like anything that could be construed as negative associated with him.

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12-29-2011, 03:05 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by ottawah View Post
Not sure about top ten yet, there are a lot of capable d men in this draft, and teams tend to shy away from dmen with top picks because they take so long to develop. There seems to be a lack of forward strength this year though out of the top few, so more D men are likely to go top 20 than usual.

Trouba will not be taken before Murray and Dumba, thats an easy prediction.

I'd not even think about taking Trouba before Ceci or Reilly either, but I'm not an NHL GM either. Reilly is hurt which may affect his status, but he was putting up great numbers beforehand. And Ceci played well enough to make the WJ's for Canada, but seems to have been beat out due to experience, and most other players on this list did not even get an invite to their countries camp.

I'd personally rank Trouba in the third group of Dmen which includes Reinhart. Koekkoek and Matta may also prove to be in there, but I've heard such differing views of these players its hard to gauge as I do not get to see them often (if at all with Reinhart).

Poulliot and Finn are also pushing, and who knows, maybe Ebert can right the ship.

What makes this hard for me to rank though is Trouba really is playing in a second rate league, if not third rate, compared to major junior. I get to see Ceci 30 times this year against guys who will be NHLer's very soon, and many of the other guys at least once in person and several on TV. I can see how they compare against near NHL ready talent.

A number of GM's will look at the talent Trouba has and the potential, but are they willing to risk a top ten when they have proven CHL talent on board? I would not. I jst find when looking at past drafts, the CHL based D men are usually chosen in an order that 5 years down the road at least looks acceptable. US HS D men, not so much, its a bit more random. There is obvious talent there, flushing it out on draft day is a bit more of a guessing game.

Personally I think if Trouba had decided to move to the CHL this year (a la Fowler two years ago) he would have done more to help his draft status.
At this point and time, Trouba is viewed as a consensus top 5-10 pick. The fact that he has made the US World Junior Team as an underager is very impressive, especially given the US's track record of not taking younger players in their draft year. If you really think the USHL and the NTDP's schedule is third rate, you are wrong. The USHL is not quite CHL level but pretty close, and the college teams the NTDP plays are high quality. Also, Trouba is playing against guys older than him night in and night out, and the US's strength training is viewed as the best for young players. After Murray and Dumba, Trouba could be considered the third best d man in this draft. That means his play now and in the future. I could see him as a top 3 d man with pp and pk potential. Smooth skater with an edge and a rocket of a shot. His decision making has vastly improved in the past year as well.

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