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Shea Weber - Concussion - day-to-day (video)

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12-29-2011, 11:22 AM
  #51
ThirdManIn
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Agreed, 101st. Helmet technology has to get better. The league is studying several options. I hope changing the way a helmet is designed is one of those options, and I would imagine it is.

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12-29-2011, 12:13 PM
  #52
gopreds19
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Originally Posted by cleangene View Post
The all-knowing, all-mighty Shanny can easily tell that Toots intended to take out Miller and deserves a suspension, especially after having his face get in the way of Miller's punches. He also is well aware that a Predators player's body got in the way of a Dallas Star's player right to ice possession, so not even a penalty was warranted- if there had been more time remaining, Shea probably would have been called for interference.
This is a good point. I'm wondering, has there ever been a player suspended or let alone had any disciplinary action taken against him as a result of something that happened against a Predator, other than Bobby Ryan's stomp?

Someone should compile a list of suspensions and against which team the hit was laid. I bet there would be some interesting bias.

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12-29-2011, 01:16 PM
  #53
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Yep... He's going to be out some time:

Quote:
Shea Weber will not play Friday, as the Nashville Predators captain remains out indefinitely with concussion symptoms.

"Even Sunday is unlikely," Predators coach Barry Trotz told ESPN.com on Thursday morning. "There is no timetable for his return at this point. We are not putting him at risk."

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12-29-2011, 01:20 PM
  #54
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Fans of every team think there is a bias against their team when it comes time to hand out suspensions or to let the call on the ice, or lack thereof, stand as the only necessary action taken. It's part of being a fan. We want to see our guys protected, and when we feel that a play was ignored we chalk it up to yet another play ignored. Even if we have a list of suspensions with teams represented it would not necessarily point to a bias.

Bad news about Webs. I didn't expect him for Friday, but I was holding out hope that he would be back for the Calgary game. Better to not rush it though.

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12-29-2011, 02:03 PM
  #55
gopreds19
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
Fans of every team think there is a bias against their team when it comes time to hand out suspensions or to let the call on the ice, or lack thereof, stand as the only necessary action taken. It's part of being a fan. We want to see our guys protected, and when we feel that a play was ignored we chalk it up to yet another play ignored. Even if we have a list of suspensions with teams represented it would not necessarily point to a bias.
I just found it interesting that a player has to use his skate as a weapon in order for the league to take action when the Preds are involoved. But I can count at least 5 times (Kronwall on Bonk, Burrows on Dumont, Beauchemin on Fisher, Backstrom on Goc, and Fistric on Weber) where the league did nothing, and that's just me sitting at my desk.

Yet how many Predators have been suspended over the last few years? Tootoo, SOB, Rads.....


You would think that there would have been at least 3 suspension worthy plays in that amount of time against our opposition, but I can only think of the skate stomp.

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12-29-2011, 02:56 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by AtlantaWhaler View Post
Yep... He's going to be out some time:
Quote:
Shea Weber will not play Friday, as the Nashville Predators captain remains out indefinitely with concussion symptoms.

"Even Sunday is unlikely," Predators coach Barry Trotz told ESPN.com on Thursday morning. "There is no timetable for his return at this point. We are not putting him at risk."
again, in trotz speak, this means, "we hope he's back for the playoffs, but he may be out for the season"

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12-29-2011, 02:59 PM
  #57
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What is REALLY, REALLY bad about all of this is, you would think we wouldnt sign Shea to an extension until the full extent of his current injury is known, and you would also think that, if this ends up being a serious concussion, then like Lombardi, that his next contract might not be insurable, which could be absolutely devastating

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12-29-2011, 03:25 PM
  #58
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Last season - 1 Pred suspended, 1 Fined. 2 suspensions from acts against the Preds (Ruutu and Ryan).
09-10 No Preds suspended or fined. Burrows fined for comments about officiating during a Preds/Canucks game
08-09 No Preds suspended or fined.

I'm too bored from looking back to continue looking for persecution that doesn't exisit.

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12-29-2011, 06:05 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by 101st_fan View Post
The only way to eliminate all contact to the head from checking is to eliminate checking. Period. There will always be unfortunate occurrences where a player gets hit above the shoulders as long as there is hitting. Players turn and what starts as a body check ends up a shoulder to the head .. players start to fall and the head gets involved ... body to body hits result in one guy's head bouncing off the glass or boards. All of those involve the head so which should be suspension worthy and which not? Do you wait to see if a guy is concussed or whistle it the instant any head involvement occurs? Therein lies just some of the problem set when saying any contact involving the head = response X.

This is a relatively normal play that has a bad outcome so of course the initial knee-jerk reaction is to call for suspension. Can you see that a guy is moving from relatively upright to a vulnerable position and change your path in 1/10 - 1/4 of a second? I sure as hell can't. All three of these images are within 1/4 second of each other ... Shea starts good, skates get out in front of him, impact (bicep at Shea's face height, hip at chest level ... from a guy 2" shorter than Weber). Honestly, the more probable concussive impact is when Weber's head hits the ice, not the initial hit itself. Human bodies give and absorb some impact, his head bounces hard off of the ice with zero absorption of any force by anything besides his melon.





And while we're all discussing this one hit we overlook the hit on Ryder earlier in that same game. Hit into a stanchion at the end of the bench, head bounces off the curved glass. No injury = great play in our book when in reality that was at least as dangerous of a play as the hit on Weber. Both hits involved head contact (Weber's with Fistric's arm ... Ryder's with the curved stanchion), both players skated away from it and continued to play, both players showed no ill effects Friday after the game. The only way prevention works is if dangerous hits are called every time. Waiting for a guy to get hurt, then calling something on ice or waiting for Shannahan does no good.

I agree with you on the equipment. It's not just the pads which are now weapons quality (if I could fit the elbow pads under my uniform I'd wear them while deployed). The helmets continue to suck. The league would be smart if they partnered with the Canadian and US military health services who have been researching traumatic brain injury for years. It's going to take a total redesign of the headgear to come up with something that can take the impact of a puck, absorb and dissipate concussive force, and remain wearable while playing.
One thing you didn't mention about the Fistric hit, look at his elbow in the early video clips and look at where it ends up when the hit happens. You talk about a split second decision yet Fistric has the time to move his elbow up as he's making the hit. I'm not saying it wasn't just a bad outcome but I think I didn't mention this earlier, guys need to be responsible for everything on the ice, their sticks, jumping at players and their elbows when hitting. I think there is a line and guys try to tote the line as much as they can. Unfortunately it's costing the NHL their stars.

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12-29-2011, 06:05 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gopreds19 View Post
I just found it interesting that a player has to use his skate as a weapon in order for the league to take action when the Preds are involoved. But I can count at least 5 times (Kronwall on Bonk, Burrows on Dumont, Beauchemin on Fisher, Backstrom on Goc, and Fistric on Weber) where the league did nothing, and that's just me sitting at my desk.

Yet how many Predators have been suspended over the last few years? Tootoo, SOB, Rads.....


You would think that there would have been at least 3 suspension worthy plays in that amount of time against our opposition, but I can only think of the skate stomp.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 101st_fan View Post
Last season - 1 Pred suspended, 1 Fined. 2 suspensions from acts against the Preds (Ruutu and Ryan).
09-10 No Preds suspended or fined. Burrows fined for comments about officiating during a Preds/Canucks game
08-09 No Preds suspended or fined.

I'm too bored from looking back to continue looking for persecution that doesn't exisit.
Here is a short list.

Tootoo's suspension is arguable, but I think everyone knew in the backs of their minds that he would get one after the Lucic debacle. SOB earned his. You don't spear people, especially in the head/throat area. Rads earned his with an unnecessary hit in the play offs. His intention was not to hurt anyone, but you have to control your emotions enough to be effective so that you help your team. Going back further, Tootoo earned another one for a gloved punch on Robidas. Nichol earned his for a sucker punch that broke Spacek's jaw.

Still, there are very few suspensions against the Predators. Three suspensions listed there. A couple that I tossed in from the 2006-2007 season.

There were two against Ducks players in one series last year. One against us in that same season.

Shea Weber should have received some sort of extra disciplinary action for his sucker punch on Tyutin during a game last year, but did not. He also could have easily been suspended for his hit on Hansen earlier this season. Instead he was fined $2,500.

I would say that there is very little evidence that a bias exists against the Predators in any way. This is under two different disciplinarians -- Shanahan and Campbell. That is not to say that some sort of bias doesn't exist at all in the league, but I don't see one against Nashville. At least not since the lock out.

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12-29-2011, 06:06 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
Agreed, 101st. Helmet technology has to get better. The league is studying several options. I hope changing the way a helmet is designed is one of those options, and I would imagine it is.
A helmet would only help Weber if it were enclosed. This was an elbow on chin hit. Unless the helmets protect the entire head, which the players will resist, it's a moot point. Take the kevlar elbow pads out of the game.

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12-29-2011, 06:56 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
A helmet would only help Weber if it were enclosed. This was an elbow on chin hit. Unless the helmets protect the entire head, which the players will resist, it's a moot point. Take the kevlar elbow pads out of the game.
Well obviously new helmet technology would not benefit players in every situation, but it would certainly help with a lot of hits. Especially those hits that end with players bouncing their heads off of the ice. I agree about the pads needing to be redesigned, too.

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12-29-2011, 07:55 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
One thing you didn't mention about the Fistric hit, look at his elbow in the early video clips and look at where it ends up when the hit happens. You talk about a split second decision yet Fistric has the time to move his elbow up as he's making the hit. I'm not saying it wasn't just a bad outcome but I think I didn't mention this earlier, guys need to be responsible for everything on the ice, their sticks, jumping at players and their elbows when hitting. I think there is a line and guys try to tote the line as much as they can. Unfortunately it's costing the NHL their stars.
His elbow starts a couple inches from his side, moves down with Weber's body, then moves up as they separate. It wasn't on an upward path towards Weber's head at impact and there is no continuous upward movement of his elbow though the hit. That's just from watching this hit at .03 speed too many times then slow-mo of the replay shown last night on 56" of TV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
A helmet would only help Weber if it were enclosed. This was an elbow on chin hit. Unless the helmets protect the entire head, which the players will resist, it's a moot point. Take the kevlar elbow pads out of the game.
If anything catches Weber's chin it would be the upper portion of Fistric's elbow pad. A better helmet probably does help here. It's a hell of a collision between the two, but Weber's head hits the ice harder and changes direction more suddenly than when he and Fistric connect.

If Weber doesn't leave the morning skate Monday ... this play doesn't get a second mention. Tootoo is looking directly at the hit and doesn't react as though anything was dirty about it. Cooper tweets about how "blatant" this was but didn't see it until Monday afternoon. There are things Fistric could have done differently, mostly if he would have read that Nystrom would get the puck or disrupt Weber's movement in and not go for a check along the boards there, but the committal to the hit and his body position don't say head hunt here. If it isn't a head hunt, the only other explanation is that it is a terrible outcome to a normal hockey play.

There is a very selective outcry here. Our guy gets hurt, scream for blood. Dozens of other dangerous hits on, and by, our players and we have a collective see no evil mentality.

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12-30-2011, 12:09 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by 101st_fan View Post

I agree with you on the equipment. It's not just the pads which are now weapons quality (if I could fit the elbow pads under my uniform I'd wear them while deployed). The helmets continue to suck. The league would be smart if they partnered with the Canadian and US military health services who have been researching traumatic brain injury for years. It's going to take a total redesign of the headgear to come up with something that can take the impact of a puck, absorb and dissipate concussive force, and remain wearable while playing.
It seems so bizarre that the league hasn't been able to do anything about the equipment.

Obviously nobody needs elbow pads made of Kevlar. When do you ever see a guy out with a dang elbow injury? And even the shoulder pads...most of the shoulder injuries we see are shoulder separations. Can those really be prevented with harder shoulder pads? I agree with some ideas I've read in articles about softening up the shoulder and elbow pads and leaving only the chest protector the same.

I agree the helmets are worthless. And really, what good is any helmet if you wear the chin strap dangling 6 inches below your chin? I always thought it was weird how Arnott, a player with a significant concussion history, wears his chin strap so loose. But lots of players do it. Doesn't seem like the helmet would do much good if it's moving or even flying off when you're getting hit. You'd think some experts would've come up with a better design by now.

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12-30-2011, 08:46 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by AEM6729 View Post
It seems so bizarre that the league hasn't been able to do anything about the equipment.

Obviously nobody needs elbow pads made of Kevlar. When do you ever see a guy out with a dang elbow injury? And even the shoulder pads...most of the shoulder injuries we see are shoulder separations. Can those really be prevented with harder shoulder pads? I agree with some ideas I've read in articles about softening up the shoulder and elbow pads and leaving only the chest protector the same.

I agree the helmets are worthless. And really, what good is any helmet if you wear the chin strap dangling 6 inches below your chin? I always thought it was weird how Arnott, a player with a significant concussion history, wears his chin strap so loose. But lots of players do it. Doesn't seem like the helmet would do much good if it's moving or even flying off when you're getting hit. You'd think some experts would've come up with a better design by now.
I'm sure several new designs exist, but before you can properly test those designs for effectiveness you must first decide how concussions are caused the majority of the time. It's impossible to solve a problem unless you can narrow that problem down. Simply saying, "We are going to design this helmet to limit concussions" isn't enough. You need to say, "We are going to design this helmet to absorb X kind of hit in order to limit concussions."

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