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Old
12-29-2011, 10:29 AM
  #151
Butch 19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaygokings View Post
Here is all you need to know in terms of a goalie argument

Goalies in the system under Dave Taylor:

Barry Brust
Daniel Taylor
Jonathan Quick
Yutaka Fukufuji
Ryan Munce
Matt Zaba
Christobal Huet

Dean Lombardi:

Jeff Zatkoff
Jonathan Bernier
Linden Rowat
Martin Jones
Chris Gibson
J.F. Berube


Which pool of tenders would you rather have?

Can we move on now please?
Well to get Quick, DT's list obviuously. And after 6 years, we know that several of DT's goalies were failures, but history hasn't caught up to DL's list either.

How does everyone keep ignoring Garon?? He won the 3rd most games in team history in his FIRST year as an NHL starter - then DL told us that Cloutier was an upgrade, as Garon was kicked to the curb.

Garon STOLE games, he excelled in the shootout. And remember that he also had NO defense in front of him.

and re Bernier "vs" Quick, I assume Bernier is "the goalie of the future" (somewhere), but he's been given a chance to take the job from Quick, and so far, he's just not up to it. Quick >> Bernier.

I was disappointed in the Bernier pick from the beginning (since D was the biggest need), then grew to like it (during my patient phase), but now after seeing what he's got, I'm leaning back toward disappointment.... I mean, Quick was already in the system, he could have learned from Garon for a few years.

Now we have a letigimate #1 goalie in Quick, but we don't really know what to do with Bernier. I've been saying for 2 years now that Bernier needs to start more, but when he does, he leaves me wanting Quick.

It's up to Bernier to make DS choosing the starting goalie a difficult choice, but it's really not that hard of a selection now is it?

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12-29-2011, 10:36 AM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Butch 19 View Post
Well to get Quick, DT's list obviuously. And after 6 years, we know that several of DT's goalies were failures, but history hasn't caught up to DL's list either.

How does everyone keep ignoring Garon?? He won the 3rd most games in team history in his FIRST year as an NHL starter - then DL told us that Cloutier was an upgrade, as Garon was kicked to the curb.

Garon STOLE games, he excelled in the shootout. And remember that he also had NO defense in front of him.

and re Bernier "vs" Quick, I assume Bernier is "the goalie of the future" (somewhere), but he's been given a chance to take the job from Quick, and so far, he's just not up to it. Quick >> Bernier.

I was disappointed in the Bernier pick from the beginning (since D was the biggest need), then grew to like it (during my patient phase), but now after seeing what he's got, I'm leaning back toward disappointment.... I mean, Quick was already in the system, he could have learned from Garon for a few years.

Now we have a letigimate #1 goalie in Quick, but we don't really know what to do with Bernier. I've been saying for 2 years now that Bernier needs to start more, but when he does, he leaves me wanting Quick.

It's up to Bernier to make DS choosing the starting goalie a difficult choice, but it's really not that hard of a selection now is it?
Hey, I heard the winds are shifting from Santa Ana's to a stong on-shore flow today.

Seriously, Bernier hasn't overtaken Quick because Quick is that good, not because Bernier sucks.

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12-29-2011, 10:40 AM
  #153
Butch 19
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Originally Posted by Duc620 View Post
But I do believe that Lombardi has installed a different mindset in this franchise about training, expectations, and development.

And it's paying off.

Sorry, but until this "different mindset" translates into more wins, a division title or two and playoff success(es), this is just lip service and platitudes.

Success breeds more success, and then players will actully want to come to L.A.

Lombardi hasn't accomplished anything yet. Top tier teams can do what the Kings have done in the last 2 seasons in their sleep.

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12-29-2011, 11:20 AM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Butch 19 View Post
... Lombardi hasn't accomplished anything yet. Top tier teams can do what the Kings have done in the last 2 seasons in their sleep.
Kings are a much much better franchise after DL. That's a big accomplishment.

Wings spent 15 + seasons building their relentless franchise.

I remember when the Blackhawks spent 19 years outside looking in before reaching a final. NOW, they can do this in their sleep. Like last night.

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12-29-2011, 12:34 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Duc620 View Post
Kings are a much much better franchise after DL. That's a big accomplishment.

Wings spent 15 + seasons building their relentless franchise.

I remember when the Blackhawks spent 19 years outside looking in before reaching a final. NOW, they can do this in their sleep. Like last night.
touche

Actually, the Hawks and Bruins are 2 teams that give me a bit of hope: they both sucked forever, hit rock bottom, and rebuilt and went on to win the Cup. The only "problem" with the Kings is they never hit rock bottom enough to get the #1 pick - a game changer.

Even after the Hawks and Bruins started to improve, they both took several years to really make some noise in the playoffs. Hopefully, the Kings will win a playoff round (or 2) this season.

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12-29-2011, 12:59 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Butch 19 View Post
touche ...

... couldn't resist!

I agree with your assessment and examples, although I pick the Wings - they finally got some great players, especially the Russians, and Yzerman... but they still had to earn it and it took awhile.

I think the Kings goalies are better than Detroits - even better than the guys that won cups. I just think the Wings five man unit play and their system has been the best. Forever, it seems. They can just keep plugging guys in, keep the new guys surrounded by veterans, and just motor on. (pun intended).

Takes awhile to build that kind of culture. I'd say ten years.
You'll get some success but not necessarily be elite until then, in my view.

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12-29-2011, 01:01 PM
  #157
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Why do people think that players are only developed until they reach the NHL? Do you really believe Quick would be anywhere near where is now if not in the DL development program? DL has a proven track record of goalies time after time. DT has failed it time after time. Yet you still can't connect the dots?

Development isn't just a pre-NHL thing. It's a life-long process that DL has shown he's capable of mastering, especially with goaltenders. Anyone who experienced Kings hockey pre-DL has to agree with this. I'm sorry, there's no other opinions on this one.

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12-29-2011, 01:18 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by KingPurpleDinosaur View Post
... It's a life-long process that DL has shown he's capable of mastering, especially with goaltenders. ....
now if he'd only learn what to do with wings.... we'd really have something.

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12-29-2011, 01:19 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Duc620 View Post
now if he'd only learn what to do with wings.... we'd really have something.
He needs to read this forum more often.

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12-29-2011, 02:29 PM
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingPurpleDinosaur View Post
Why do people think that players are only developed until they reach the NHL? Do you really believe Quick would be anywhere near where is now if not in the DL development program? DL has a proven track record of goalies time after time. DT has failed it time after time. Yet you still can't connect the dots?

Development isn't just a pre-NHL thing. It's a life-long process that DL has shown he's capable of mastering, especially with goaltenders. Anyone who experienced Kings hockey pre-DL has to agree with this. I'm sorry, there's no other opinions on this one.
Like Quick, Kipper, Nabakov and Toskla were drafted by the previous GM. Of course Lombardi was there, but I am sure Lombardi did the good ones and Grillo did the bad.



Lombardi has drafted, as GM in San Jose, 3 goalies. They have played a total of 13 NHL games. Odds are those 3 ain't playing any more NHL games.

So outside of the 3 goalies, drafted by Chuck Grillo, no other goalie "Developed" into an NHL regular in San Jose. A system that appears to favor signing and trading for veteran goalies over giving a young guy a shot.

Kiprusoff never really caught on in San Jose playing about 50 games over 4 or 5 seasons.

Nabakov, he kicked around the AHL and IHL for 6 seasons before he caught on in San Jose.

Toskla spent 7 seasons before he got a shot. And that shot came after Lombardi left.

Lombardi however continued to trade for and sign veteran goalies the likes of, in no order.

Vernon, Shields, Hurdy, Belfour, Terreri and Flaherty. Not counting the 2 or 3 guys who played a game or 3.

So if you call the previous guy drafting a goalie and burying him in the minors while you sign burned out veterans who tank in the Playoffs a development plan then so bit it.

IMO, history tells me a different story.

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12-29-2011, 02:41 PM
  #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magicman View Post
Like Quick, Kipper, Nabakov and Toskla were drafted by the previous GM. Of course Lombardi was there, but I am sure Lombardi did the good ones and Grillo did the bad.



Lombardi has drafted, as GM in San Jose, 3 goalies. They have played a total of 13 NHL games. Odds are those 3 ain't playing any more NHL games.

So outside of the 3 goalies, drafted by Chuck Grillo, no other goalie "Developed" into an NHL regular in San Jose. A system that appears to favor signing and trading for veteran goalies over giving a young guy a shot.

Kiprusoff never really caught on in San Jose playing about 50 games over 4 or 5 seasons.

Nabakov, he kicked around the AHL and IHL for 6 seasons before he caught on in San Jose.

Toskla spent 7 seasons before he got a shot. And that shot came after Lombardi left.

Lombardi however continued to trade for and sign veteran goalies the likes of, in no order.

Vernon, Shields, Hurdy, Belfour, Terreri and Flaherty. Not counting the 2 or 3 guys who played a game or 3.

So if you call the previous guy drafting a goalie and burying him in the minors while you sign burned out veterans who tank in the Playoffs a development plan then so bit it.

IMO, history tells me a different story.
I like how you just gloss over this guy as if Nabokov spending 5 or 6 seasons in the minors means he didn't have an impact in San Jose.

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12-29-2011, 03:12 PM
  #162
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Magicman, you are omitting one very important fact regarding San Jose's development of goaltenders. There is this very important man that Dean Lombardi hired who had a great impact on the development of San Jose's goaltenders, Warren Strelow.
http://sharks.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=474307

As for all the veteran goalies you listed, Dean Lombardi's plan was to have veteran goalies buy time for their goalie prospects to develop and slowly move up the rankings. Just look at how they transitioned and progressed until they were deep with goaltending talent.

96-97: Hrudey and Terreri split duties while Belfour was a trade deadline acquisition. They miss the playoffs in Lombardi's first year as GM.

97-98: Sharks acquire Mike Vernon, who had won a Cup with Detroit, with Hrudey backing him up. The Sharks improved by 16 points and made the playoffs under Darryl Sutter's first season with SJ.

98-99: Hrudey retires, Sharks acquire who at the time was considered a hot young goalie prospect in Steve Shields to backup Mike Vernon. While this is happening, the Sharks have Evgeni Nabokov developing in the AHL as the starting goalie in Kentucky.

99-00: The Sharks trade Vernon in December and go with Shields and Nabokov in net and advance to the 2nd round of the playoffs. The Sharks have Kiprusoff and Hedberg splitting the duties in Kentucky.

00-01: Having a crowded net, the Sharks trade two goaltenders in order to strengthen their roster. Shields and Friesen are moved to acquire Teemu Selanne and Hedberg and Dollas are moved to improve their blueline by acquiring Jeff Norton. Nabokov is now the starter with Kiprusoff backing up and Toskala starting in Kentucky. They finish 2nd in the Pacific with 40 wins and 95 points.

01-02: The Sharks finished 1st in the Pacific with 99 points. Nabokov and Kiprusoff remain in net with Toskala as the starter with their newly relocated AHL club in Cleveland.

02-03: Nabokov holds out, Kiprusoff and the Sharks struggle and Lombardi and Sutter are both eventually fired.

Even after Lombardi's termination, the Sharks will continue to reap the benefits of the development system they had in place for their goaltenders ad Kiprusoff is dealt to Calgary for a 2nd round pick that turns out to become Marc-Edouard Vlasic as Toskala wins the backup spot behind Nabokov. Toskala would later be moved to Toronto along with Mark Bell for Toronto's 1st and 2nd round picks. Those picks are then packaged to St. Louis in order for the Sharks to move up and select Logan Couture at the 2007 Entry Draft.

Lombardi knew what he was doing with his development of goaltenders in San Jose, and his hiring of goaltending coach Warren Strelow had a great influence on that system.

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12-29-2011, 03:14 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
I like how you just gloss over this guy as if Nabokov spending 5 or 6 seasons in the minors means he didn't have an impact in San Jose.
Never said he did or didn't have an impact in San Jose or like the Kipper in Calgary.

The previous poster said Lombardi had a "Proven" track record of goalie after goalie. When the facts state differently.

IMO If any one of the 3 guys who spent time in the NHL were one of "His" guys. They all would have been given more opportunity.

If history tells us anything, the signing/trading for Veteran Goalies under Lombardi in San Jose tells us Cloutier was allot more Lombardi than Crawford.

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12-29-2011, 03:22 PM
  #164
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Nice post, Ziggy!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Magicman View Post
... If history tells us anything, the signing/trading for Veteran Goalies under Lombardi in San Jose tells us Cloutier was allot more Lombardi than Crawford.
But, that's Lombardi's method - get and use vets until you develop your players. You're knocking him for exactly what makes him successful. It's just that goalies take longer to develop.

Mind you, I'm not defending Cloutier or whoever else DL grabs when he is in that cycle... that's just the risk you take when you place a vet. The ones who will be available are never going to be top drawer - they're the ones locked in with other teams. The second level guys who are available are always a bigger gamble. It's just Lombardi's principle to never put prospects on the line against pro's. It ruins more prospects than it develops seems to be his opinion.

I respect that view.

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12-29-2011, 03:52 PM
  #165
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Ziggy's post was spot on.

I would like to add that Ranford is making **** happen with our goalies.

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12-29-2011, 04:09 PM
  #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Butch 19 View Post
Actually, the Hawks and Bruins are 2 teams that give me a bit of hope: they both sucked forever, hit rock bottom, and rebuilt and went on to win the Cup. The only "problem" with the Kings is they never hit rock bottom enough to get the #1 pick - a game changer.
We didn't #1, but we got #2 in DOughty, I think that's close enough. And we traded for a #3 in Johnson. Not every team that drafts first overall is destined to become a cup champ and vice versa for teams that don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magicman View Post
Kiprusoff never really caught on in San Jose playing about 50 games over 4 or 5 seasons.

Nabakov, he kicked around the AHL and IHL for 6 seasons before he caught on in San Jose.

Toskla spent 7 seasons before he got a shot. And that shot came after Lombardi left.

Lombardi however continued to trade for and sign veteran goalies the likes of, in no order.

Vernon, Shields, Hurdy, Belfour, Terreri and Flaherty. Not counting the 2 or 3 guys who played a game or 3.

So if you call the previous guy drafting a goalie and burying him in the minors while you sign burned out veterans who tank in the Playoffs a development plan then so bit it.

IMO, history tells me a different story.
This is just spin again.

Kipper didn't catch on in San Jose because he was backing up Nabokov. There can only be one starter.

Nabaokov wasn't "kicking around the minors". He stayed in Europe, like a lot of players, especially goalies, do. He came over in 1997-98 and was the Sharks starter after three seasons in the minors (the last of which was split between the NHL and AHL/IHL).

Toskala didn't get his shot until after DL left San Jose because the two goalies ahead of him were Nabokov and Kipper. History tells us which of those three was the worst, and imagine that it's Toskala. What did you want, DL to force an inferiro goalie into the teams net?

DL took over the Sharks for the 1996-1997 season. Terreri was already there, as was Flaherty. So no, he didn't sign/trade for those two. That was Grillo. Belfour, Vernon, Shields and Hrudey were acquired by DL, with all four playing between 1997-2001. Shields actually was the Sharks starter one year and was dealt to get Selanne, so hardly a bust. Belfour was a trade deadline pick up and Hrudey was a veteran signed to be backup mainly. Vernon was the only veteran signed to be more than a temporary solution in net. He'd be our Dan Cloutier.

After Shields, Nabokov took over as the Sharks starter.

For the record, none of the three goaltenders for San Jose (Nabokov, Kiprussof or Toskala) ever played a game in North America until DL was the GM, so any development they did can largely be credited to DL's system/crew.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magicman View Post
If history tells us anything, the signing/trading for Veteran Goalies under Lombardi in San Jose tells us Cloutier was allot more Lombardi than Crawford.
I'm sure DL was on board with getting a veteran goalie until the prospects are ready to make it in the show, that his track record proves as shown above. But to suggest when it comes to CLoutier that DL was the main reason for Cloutier and not Crawford, the very coach who had just managed him for several seasons and swore by him to the bitter end, is ludicrious.

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12-29-2011, 06:16 PM
  #167
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Never said he did or didn't have an impact in San Jose or like the Kipper in Calgary.

The previous poster said Lombardi had a "Proven" track record of goalie after goalie. When the facts state differently.

IMO If any one of the 3 guys who spent time in the NHL were one of "His" guys. They all would have been given more opportunity.

If history tells us anything, the signing/trading for Veteran Goalies under Lombardi in San Jose tells us Cloutier was allot more Lombardi than Crawford.
That's right. That's why I said you glossed over it. You are great at pointing out the negative, but didn't mention the positive at all. Then Ziggy took you to school, so I don't know how you will respond to that.

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12-29-2011, 06:35 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by Butch 19 View Post
How does everyone keep ignoring Garon?? He won the 3rd most games in team history in his FIRST year as an NHL starter - then DL told us that Cloutier was an upgrade, as Garon was kicked to the curb.
Garon was awful Butch, that's how. Also, when Jamie Storr is top 2-3 in most of your franchise's history of goaltending records, being number 3 isn't much to pound your chest over.


Last edited by Bandit: 12-29-2011 at 06:57 PM.
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12-29-2011, 07:43 PM
  #169
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Garon was awful Butch
Well, time makes everything in the past look better. If you listen to PSP talking about past, you would have thought that Kings won at least 7 Cups before AEG took over.

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