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At what point does Kopitar take responsibility?

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Old
12-30-2011, 10:47 PM
  #76
Nex06
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Originally Posted by Chazz Reinhold View Post
Actually, you were the one making the claim in the first place. Then you covered your ass by saying that whenever Kopitar went into a slump with "good" players on his line, they weren't playing well, so that's why he wasn't scoring.
That is of course a lie. You made the statement in post #31, which I claimed you can't prove. My first post on the subject was post #39 and I talked about wingers' performance there, not about their names.

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The bolded above is not true at all because his slumps have coincided with players such as Brown, Gagne, Williams, and Smyth on his line.
One more time, although I am not sure that you have the motivation to have a constructive discussion, considering what and how you have been writing. I am talking about players' performances. It is hard to say what kind of a winger Williams is at the moment. Is he good or bad winger, you tell me? If he is good, why has he been on the third line? As a King he has been both good and bad. When I say "bad winger" I mean someone who hasn't been playing well at one particular time. And I never claimed otherwise, regardless of what you think. I only remember one time in 6 years when it was possible to say that winger plays better than Kopitar, but Kopitar still played better than #2 center so what can you do. And it didn't last very long.

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12-30-2011, 10:49 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Chazz Reinhold View Post
Look, I'm glad he plays hard at both ends of the ice, but as someone else said, he wasn't given a $6.8 million cap hit to be Sami Pahlsson. He was given a $6.8 million cap hit to be THE GUY. Not a complimentary player. THE GUY. 0 goals over the course of what amounts to almost half of the games that have been played so far isn't getting it done.

And please, don't point to assists. Assists are such an arbitrary thing.
Assists are arbitrary?? LMAO wtf does that even mean?

So, just want to make sure,

You would rather have a guy who scores 30 goals and has 30 assists, than a guy who has 10 goals, and 70 assists?

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12-30-2011, 10:57 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
Assists are arbitrary?? LMAO wtf does that even mean?

So, just want to make sure,

You would rather have a guy who scores 30 goals and has 30 assists, than a guy who has 10 goals, and 70 assists?
Yes, I would. There's no such thing as a "secondary goal." There are "secondary assists."

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12-30-2011, 11:01 PM
  #79
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Oh , its the yearly "lets bash Kopi" thread again; I dont know what you are watching but Kopi has been playing great lately EVEN if he is not scoring.
Well to be fair it is the annual 0 goals in 17 games and 2 in 24 games circus that has come to town yet again.

I agree with Ziggy. A lot of this is between his ears. He busts his butt, the effort is there. He sure does skate hard along the boards then behind the net before he throws it back to the point. My problem with him is you are going to expend all that energy how about doing it by getting your inside shoulder in front of the defender then leaning in and taking the puck to the net.

I think a lot of Kopitar. He gives a solid effort, but he isn't getting the puck to the middle of the offensive zone anywhere near often enough, and the Kings offense is suffering for it.

Again, given his paycheck and status it is not the wingers that are supposed to help him. It is Kopitar that is supposed to help his wingers.

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12-30-2011, 11:01 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Chazz Reinhold View Post
Yes, I would. There's no such thing as a "secondary goal." There are "secondary assists."
Oh, as an aside,

Pretty sure Brad Richardson would disagree with you...

Just saying...

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12-30-2011, 11:08 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by sjmay View Post

Even with "secondary assists" that means there was a goal scored.

So you would give up 20 goals because you don't like secondary assists...

Interesting.
It's a lot easier to get a secondary assist than it is to get a primary goal. And, like pretty much all of your examples, the 10 goals and 70 assists is absurd. I can find more 30-30 players than you can 10-70 players because a 30-30 player is substantially more realistic.

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Oh, as an aside,

Pretty sure Brad Richardson would disagree with you...

Just saying...
So Voynov and Richardson both were credited with that goal? News to me...


Last edited by TonySCV: 12-31-2011 at 12:49 AM. Reason: merged
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12-30-2011, 11:11 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Chazz Reinhold View Post
It's a lot easier to get a secondary assist than it is to get a primary goal. And, like pretty much all of your examples, the 10 goals and 70 assists is absurd. I can find more 30-30 players than you can 10-70 players because a 30-30 player is substantially more realistic.
Ok, fine, Make it a 25-55 player, point is, you are giving up goals, because you somehow think the number 30 sounds sexier ffs.

You do realize when there is a secondary assist, it means a goal has been scored, right?

Ok...now...who the **** cares who scored the damn thing!!!!!

Give it to the ****ing peanut guy for christ sake, it DOESN'T MATTER WHO SCORED IT.

The fact that the goal was SCORED to begin with, its a positive sign, I will take 3 positive ****ing signs a game please, and be damned who does it.

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Originally Posted by Chazz Reinhold View Post
It's a lot easier to get a secondary assist than it is to get a primary goal. And, like pretty much all of your examples, the 10 goals and 70 assists is absurd. I can find more 30-30 players than you can 10-70 players because a 30-30 player is substantially more realistic.
You on the other hand, would take 2.5 positive signs per game instead of 3, because you think saying the name Kopitar over a ****ing PA box, sounds better....

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So Voynov and Richardson both were credited with that goal? News to me...
It was news to Richardson that he scored it.

So...what you are saying is that you would give up 20 goals in a player to player comparison, just to know who was credited the goal?

Wow....


Last edited by TonySCV: 12-31-2011 at 12:44 AM. Reason: merged
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12-30-2011, 11:16 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Chazz Reinhold View Post
Yes, I would. There's no such thing as a "secondary goal." There are "secondary assists."
Would you say that Kopitar's assists have been "empty" points, that he was just a passenger who was on ice by coincidence when the goal was scored? Why don't you check his last 10 assists and tell me how many of those were points that he hasn't deserved? If the guy single-handedly kept the puck in offensive zone for a minute, how can that be an empty point...

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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
Well to be fair it is the annual 0 goals in 17 games and 2 in 24 games circus that has come to town yet again.

I agree with Ziggy. A lot of this is between his ears. He busts his butt, the effort is there. He sure does skate hard along the boards then behind the net before he throws it back to the point. My problem with him is you are going to expend all that energy how about doing it by getting your inside shoulder in front of the defender then leaning in and taking the puck to the net.

I think a lot of Kopitar. He gives a solid effort, but he isn't getting the puck to the middle of the offensive zone anywhere near often enough, and the Kings offense is suffering for it.

Again, given his paycheck and status it is not the wingers that are supposed to help him. It is Kopitar that is supposed to help his wingers.
Helping and doing everything by himself are two different things.

My main frustration with him at the moment is finishing. His shooting at the moment is TERRIBLE! It is like he has a mental block when he knows in advance that he is not going to score, so that is why he doesn't. He needs to talk to some kind of a mental coach, someone who can get his confidence back to a normal level. He will regain his confidence sooner or later and after that he will be the force again. But it would be nice if that period of low confidence is as short as possible. He doesn't believe in himself.

That is one of his personality problems and unfortunately I don't see him getting rid of it any time soon. I think that he will always be prone to losing confidence. I hope that someone has realized that and will do something about it. In my opinion he needs professional help. And before someone says: "but he is 6.8M pla..." - forget it. Every person has good and bad things and this is just his weak side. He doesn't really have that many.

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12-30-2011, 11:56 PM
  #84
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That is of course a lie. You made the statement in post #31, which I claimed you can't prove. My first post on the subject was post #39 and I talked about wingers' performance there, not about their names.
Re-read my claim in post #31. I can clearly prove that claim considering Kopitar has a terrible stretch like this EVERY SINGLE SEASON. It doesn't matter who he has on his wing. And you should probably go re-read your post in #39. You explicitly name names, so I don't know what the hell you're talking about.


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Originally Posted by Nex06
One more time, although I am not sure that you have the motivation to have a constructive discussion, considering what and how you have been writing. I am talking about players' performances. It is hard to say what kind of a winger Williams is at the moment. Is he good or bad winger, you tell me? If he is good, why has he been on the third line? As a King he has been both good and bad. When I say "bad winger" I mean someone who hasn't been playing well at one particular time. And I never claimed otherwise, regardless of what you think. I only remember one time in 6 years when it was possible to say that winger plays better than Kopitar, but Kopitar still played better than #2 center so what can you do. And it didn't last very long.
All of this is groundless speculation. You're basically saying that when Kopitar is scoring, his wingers are playing well. When he's not scoring, his wingers aren't playing well. Here is your quote from post #39 where you say exactly this (and name names, by the way):
Quote:
And you would know that how? He had Smyth on his wing playing well and Kopitar was great. He had Williams last season on his wing playing well and Kopitar was playing great. He had even Brown on his wing playing well and Kopitar was playing great. He had Gagne on his wing playing well and Kopitar was playing great. He had Williams this season on his wing playing well and Kopitar was playing well.

Who doesn't see the pattern here? Now tell me when did Kopitar have a winger in great form and he wasn't playing well? It happened, yes, but not for longer period, when we could say that he was in a slump. Once he has great wingers and he is playing badly, I will believe all the criticisms and if that happens he should immediately be demoted and let Richards play with top line wingers.
That's a nice cop out to blame everything on Kopitar's wingers struggling. Your whole stance is conjecture. As you will see below, at least I can provide facts to show that Kopitar disappears for incredibly long stretches at a time each season. You have absolutely no evidence to prove that his wingers "aren't playing well" when he struggles. Maybe they "aren't playing well" because he stopped scoring? Either way, we know for a fact that he does this EVERY SEASON.

If you don't realize how incredibly subjective and unfounded your whole "point" is, then it's worthless even dealing with you. Until you can come up with facts to support this, you have nothing to stand on.



Here are some facts:

-Kopitar hasn't scored a goal in 17 straight games
-Kopitar is on pace for 21 goals, which would be his lowest since his rookie season
-Kopitar has 2 goals in the past 24 games (that means he's scored 2 goals over the past 63% of the season!)
-From December 18 to February 19 last season, Kopitar scored 3 goals in 30 games
-From November 11 to January 21 in 2009-2010, Kopitar scored 5 goals in 32 games
-Over the first 49 games of the 2008-2009 season, Kopitar scored 12 goals (i.e. a 20-goal pace)

As the last three points show, he falls off the map when it comes to scoring each season. I didn't even go back to his first two seasons because those were his first two in the league and he was still feeling his way around at that point. He doesn't have that excuse anymore.

He is being paid as the #1 center on the team (and as one of the top #1 centers in the league, mind you). He has been labeled as "the franchise" by any number of people. He has 2 goals over the last 2/3 of the 2011-2012 season. That is unacceptable for someone who is supposed to carry this team when it's needed most.

Here's one for sj: of Kopitar's 10 assists over his 17 game goalless drought, 6 of them were secondary assists.

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12-31-2011, 12:01 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Chazz Reinhold View Post

Here's one for sj: of Kopitar's 10 assists over his 17 game goalless drought, 6 of them were secondary assists.
That means there were SIX ****ING GOALS SCORED!!

That's all that means ffs.

How do you not understand this????

If Kopitar, next year, had 0 goals, and 100 assists,

that would mean.....

THE KINGS SCORED AT LEAST 100 GOALS!!! THAT'S ALL THAT MEANS!

Do you not get it?

In order to have any assist, primary, secondary, third, fourth or fifth, A GOAL HAS TO HAVE BEEN SCORED.

Do you really ****ing care who scored it???

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12-31-2011, 12:01 AM
  #86
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Ok, fine, Make it a 25-55 player, point is, you are giving up goals, because you somehow think the number 30 sounds sexier ffs.

You do realize when there is a secondary assist, it means a goal has been scored, right?

Ok...now...who the **** cares who scored the damn thing!!!!!

Give it to the ****ing peanut guy for christ sake, it DOESN'T MATTER WHO SCORED IT.

The fact that the goal was SCORED to begin with, its a positive sign, I will take 3 positive ****ing signs a game please, and be damned who does it.
I care when we're considering the purported #1 center on this team with one of the largest cap hits for centers in the league. The fact that the Kings' "#1 center" isn't progressing offensively in the prime of his career doesn't worry you?

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12-31-2011, 12:05 AM
  #87
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I care when we're considering the purported #1 center on this team with one of the largest cap hits for centers in the league. The fact that the Kings' "#1 center" isn't progressing offensively in the prime of his career doesn't worry you?
No, no it doesn't.

I care that the team as a whole isn't progessing offensively, other than, I could give two ***** to the wind who actually scores the damn thing...

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12-31-2011, 12:10 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
That means there were SIX ****ING GOALS SCORED!!

That's all that means ffs.

How do you not understand this????

If Kopitar, next year, had 0 goals, and 100 assists,

that would mean.....

THE KINGS SCORED AT LEAST 100 GOALS!!! THAT'S ALL THAT MEANS!

Do you not get it?

In order to have any assist, primary, secondary, third, fourth or fifth, A GOAL HAS TO HAVE BEEN SCORED.

Do you really ****ing care who scored it???
Yes, I do care who scores it when it comes to Kopitar. He's supposed to be the nucleus of the Kings' offense. He's not doing that right now. He is being paid to do the majority of the scoring out of the Kings' forward corps. Is he doing that? No.

And again, your "0-100" scenario is completely absurd and unrealistic.

Maybe it didn't occur to you, but your "10 goals is 10 goals!!!111!!" diatribe refers to a period in which the Kings, as a team, have scored 28 goals in 17 games. Have you thought for even just a second that Kopitar's disappearance from the score sheet directly relates to that? The Kings are averaging 1.6 goals per game in that stretch ffs (as you so eloquently say in most of your posts). Kopitar is supposed to be the guy to be carrying the team through down stretches. He clearly is not doing that.

The Kings are past the point of moral victories. It's time for results.

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No, no it doesn't.

I care that the team as a whole isn't progessing offensively, other than, I could give two ***** to the wind who actually scores the damn thing...
Then you clearly don't have a solid comprehension of value of assets. When a team handed someone the largest cap hit of all its forwards, that forward is expected to carry the load offensively. He clearly is incapable of doing that consistently. That's a problem.


Last edited by TonySCV: 12-31-2011 at 12:47 AM. Reason: merged
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12-31-2011, 12:14 AM
  #89
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Then you clearly don't have a solid comprehension of value of assets. When a team handed someone the largest cap hit of all its forwards, that forward is expected to carry the load offensively. He clearly is incapable of doing that consistently. That's a problem.
LOL whatever bud, I tend to see more than goals and assists when it comes to Kopitar's play,

I think that's the major difference here.

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12-31-2011, 12:18 AM
  #90
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LOL whatever bud, I tend to see more than goals and assists when it comes to Kopitar's play,

I think that's the major difference here.
I see everything he does on the ice, trust me. I don't think he's absolutely useless out there at all right now. I love the fact that he is willing to go into the corners, grind it out, and take some physical abuse to protect the puck.

However, he's not being paid to be a solid two-way center who can't chip in offensively on a consistent basis. He's being paid to be a solid two-way center who is a consistent offensive force on the team, especially when the team is struggling. He is looked upon to be "the guy," and he's not doing that right now, and he has a history of this throughout his career. The fact that he hasn't progressed beyond a prolonged slump each season of his career at this point is alarming, to say the least.

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12-31-2011, 01:08 AM
  #91
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Whatever the question is, I am sure you have the one and only answer.
Being right all the time is as much of a blessing as it is a curse...

In this case, I am absolutely in the right here. Kopitar is NOT in a vaccum - his level of play must be expected to be higher and more productive than that of his teammates. He has all of the size and ability you could ever ask for, but he doesn't ask enough out of his own talents for more than a couple of weeks per season.

Why?

We see this every year, and he linemate issue is as moot a point as possible. For the record, Kopitar needs a playmaker on his line, not a sniper. His ability to make those around him better and more productive is average at best - it's his ability to create and finish chances for himself that have built him a reputation as a top-end talent. His playmaking skills are nice, but nothing special at all.

This year, he has 2 goals in the last 24 games (0 in 17). Last year he had a span where he had just 3 in 30, and in 09-10 he had another 2 in 24 spell. Last year folks lamented that the Kings had a chance against San Jose with Kopitar, but it has to be said that Kopitar only had one assist in his last 5 before his injury. This falls under No New News.

Yes, he is playing hard defensively. That is too his credit, but his role on this team involves a LOT more than just being sound in his own zone. He MUST be the offensive focal point - he's the #1 centerman, sees top unit PP minutes, and is involved in all crucial situations. When he doesn't have it going, it is a huge sandbag around his team.


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12-31-2011, 01:12 AM
  #92
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Being right all the time is as much of a blessing as it is a curse...

In this case, I am absolutely in the right here. Kopitar is NOT in a vaccum - his level of play must be expected to be higher and more productive than that of his teammates. He has all of the size and ability you could ever ask for, but he doesn't ask enough out of his own talents for more than a couple of weeks per season.

Why?

We see this every year, and he linemate issue is as moot a point as possible. For the record, Kopitar needs a playmaker on his line, not a sniper. His ability to make those around him better and more productive is average at best - it's his ability to create and finish chances for himself that have built him a reputation as a top-end talent. His playmaking skills are nice, but nothing special at all.

This year, he has 2 goals in the last 24 games (0 in 17). Last year he had a span where he had just 3 in 30, and in 09-10 he had another 2 in 24 spell. Last year folks lamented that the Kings had a chance against San Jose with Kopitar, but it has to be said that Kopitar only had one assist in his last 7 before his injury. This falls under No New News.

Yes, he is playing hard defensively. That is too his credit, but his role on this team involves a LOT more than just being sound in his own zone. He MUST be the offensive focal point - he's the #1 centerman, sees top unit PP minutes, and is involved in all crucial situations. When he doesn't have it going, it is a huge sandbag around his team.
Except that you are defining "has it going" as "scoring goals" when that shouldn't be the definition...

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12-31-2011, 01:17 AM
  #93
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as soon as DL does. 6 years later Richardson and Brown...... UNACCEPTABLE.
Ryan Smyth
Justin Williams
Alexander Frolov
Dustin Brown
Mike Cammalleri
Simon Gagne
Dustin Penner

All of those guys have seen considerable time on Kopitar's wing over ther past 4-5 seasons, and all have hit 30 at least once in their careers.

It doesn't matter who his linemates have been - Anze slumps every stinking year. His linemates have nothing to do with Kopitar taking his foot off the gas. In fact, when he had slumped, Murray would put Kopitar with Simmonds and Richardson to shake him up. It always worked before.

We need to stop looking for excuses and coddling him - he is a big boy now, and needs to be held accountable for his mistakes.

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12-31-2011, 01:19 AM
  #94
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Except that you are defining "has it going" as "scoring goals" when that shouldn't be the definition...
In this case, it is the definition of the argument.

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12-31-2011, 01:20 AM
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In this case, it is the definition of the argument.
Why though?

Are people really going to be unhappy if Kopitar is a +3 every game?

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12-31-2011, 01:24 AM
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Why though?

Are people really going to be unhappy if Kopitar is a +3 every game?
No, cuz it means we scored at least 3 goals

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12-31-2011, 01:57 AM
  #97
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Why though?

Are people really going to be unhappy if Kopitar is a +3 every game?
Just like secondary assists, +/- is another arbitrary statistic. It relies heavily on those around you. Goal scoring, while definitely relying somewhat on those around you, mainly relies on the person doing the scoring. Sure, you can cherry pick certain examples such as Richardson's "tip in" goal the other night, but more often than not, it's much more difficult to score a goal than it is to get a secondary assist or a plus or a minus (e.g. Johnson's "bad luck" when it comes to minuses).

I think a number of us are holding Kopitar to a higher standard because he has put himself in that position. Team's expect their #1 centers to be a force on a consistent basis.

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12-31-2011, 01:57 AM
  #98
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Slightly off subject but do you guys still think that Kopi is the better overall player than Stamkos?

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12-31-2011, 02:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Chazz Reinhold View Post
Just like secondary assists, +/- is another arbitrary statistic. It relies heavily on those around you. Goal scoring, while definitely relying somewhat on those around you, mainly relies on the person doing the scoring. Sure, you can cherry pick certain examples such as Richardson's "tip in" goal the other night, but more often than not, it's much more difficult to score a goal than it is to get a secondary assist or a plus or a minus (e.g. Johnson's "bad luck" when it comes to minuses).

I think a number of us are holding Kopitar to a higher standard because he has put himself in that position. Team's expect their #1 centers to be a force on a consistent basis.
Are you really trying to argue that Kopitar isn't a force every night he is out there?

Really?

Teams gameplan around the guy, that alone tells you how much of a force he is...

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12-31-2011, 02:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Chazz Reinhold View Post
Just like secondary assists, +/- is another arbitrary statistic. It relies heavily on those around you. Goal scoring, while definitely relying somewhat on those around you, mainly relies on the person doing the scoring. Sure, you can cherry pick certain examples such as Richardson's "tip in" goal the other night, but more often than not, it's much more difficult to score a goal than it is to get a secondary assist or a plus or a minus (e.g. Johnson's "bad luck" when it comes to minuses).

I think a number of us are holding Kopitar to a higher standard because he has put himself in that position. Team's expect their #1 centers to be a force on a consistent basis.
Again, you would leave 20 goals on the table, because scoring a goal is harder...

I don't get it...

Anyone here believe that Dean Lombardi cares who scores the goals right now as long as the Kings win?

Anyone?

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