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Old
01-01-2012, 11:54 AM
  #176
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Originally Posted by JackZap View Post
it seems that the last thing we need is for Markov to come back with us finishing 10th and not getting rid of players for picks. That would be a cluster ****
This is exactly what I'm affraid of and that I think is going to happen. People will be happy as the Habs will go on some kind of a winning streak just to see our hopes crushed in the end

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01-01-2012, 11:59 AM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Half the players in the NHL are overpaid according to HF.

Do you think we're NOT going to end up with an overpaid player if we go UFA shopping?
We dont mind overpaying players ..but let's overpay superstars and not average players.

For example, Zach Parise is a UFA ...don't start with how u know he will sign here ..why would he sign here ..noblody knows ..we just pay him a lot and hope he comes. With Gomez, Cammalleri, Gionta off the books, we have more money to play with and actually sign a franchise player.

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01-01-2012, 11:59 AM
  #178
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Originally Posted by EllertoKostitsynGoal View Post
That's the kind of mentality that always makes us a team that's, usually, just good enough for the playoffs. Keeping guys because they are good enough and they are no one to replace them in free agency. Who say we have to spend their cap hits on crap if we trade them. How about management realise that building a team on july first doesn't cut it if you want to contend.
When do you suggest they build the team?

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01-01-2012, 12:03 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Traitor8 View Post
We dont mind overpaying players ..but let's overpay superstars and not average players.

For example, Zach Parise is a UFA ...don't start with how u know he will sign here ..why would he sign here ..noblody knows ..we just pay him a lot and hope he comes. With Gomez, Cammalleri, Gionta off the books, we have more money to play with and actually sign a franchise player.
Cammalleri at 27 years old was a good risk signing. Gionta is paid what proven 20-25 goal scorers with responsible defence and heart are paid.

Gomez was overpaid in the 2006 UFA market, and is much more so today, but we already knew that.

If someone signs Parise for $8M per year, and he has Cammalleri type numbers and
some injuries, will that teams fans want to jettison him and try again for a "real" franchise player?

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Old
01-01-2012, 12:06 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
Cammalleri at 27 years old was a good risk signing. Gionta is paid what proven 20-25 goal scorers with responsible defence and heart are paid.

Gomez was overpaid in the 2006 UFA market, and is much more so today, but we already knew that.

If someone signs Parise for $8M per year, and he has Cammalleri type numbers and
some injuries, will that teams fans want to jettison him and try again for a "real" franchise player?
Gionta only gets 40-50 points a year ..thats' not what the average "5 m $ player" does.

Parise won't have Cammalleri type numbers...because he's simply a better player. He can do much more than Cam. When Cam is not scoring, he's useless but parise can score, playmake, play against the best players, QB a PP, etc..etc..

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01-01-2012, 12:07 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
We only have so many options, Gauthier can't make 100 moves because he has 24 million locked up in unmovable contracts. What can he really do?
Gomez - 7.3
Cammy - 6
Gionta - 5
Markov - 5.7

Whoever we bring in will have the same issues. Coaching and useless vets are our biggest problems. I assume RC is interim and we have to just ride out the storm with these gross contracts until they either improve/get healthy or the contract expires.
Can all the above be sent to the ahl at the same time??
Not one of them are worth a goats ass anyway, smurf, smurf, smurf and limpy.
Cheque collectors...lol

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01-01-2012, 12:08 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by sampollock View Post
here it is

1. no #1 centre
2. no system
3. no size up the middle
4. d is avg

blow this up, go for a higher draft pic, (and don't pick a small guy)

no choice this season is done, and all habs know it.
Here's mine:

1. no #1 centre
2. lack of size up the middle
3. d is missing grit
4. no third line that shuts down and pisses off opponents.
4. no fourth liners who can change momentum

We're really missing White and Markov but they wouldn't solve the problem.

I wouldn't blow it up per say, because our young players are all playing well. It's Plekanec, Gionta, Cammalleri and Gomez. We need to get what we can from those players. Even Kaberle isn't that bad. If we get rid of those veterans, we're actually not that far away. The problem is that management misjudged how long it would take for these players to decline when they gave them those long contracts.

1 & 2. If Gionta is worth a 1st, I'd offer Plekanec, Cammalleri and a 1st for Getzlaf. Finally solve that problem.

3. Tinordi is the solution to our D missing grit. With him and Emelin to insulate Subban, Subban can start throwing his weight around too. We've seen him do it. If Tinordi isn't ready, we need to bring in a veteran who does that that can calm this team down. In the mould of Pronger.

4. The third line has to be reworked. This may be our biggest problem because there's nobody on our third line that gets in people's faces and off their game. A Lapierre if you will. Where does Desharnais fit?

5. White would help the fourth line. Keep Moen. Get in a Scott or Bickell. Someone who can skate, hit and drop the gloves. We need that line to create momentum.

Our top 6 would then be: Getzlaf, Eller, Kostitsyn, Pacioretty, Cole and Leblanc / Desharnais.
Our bottom 6 would be: Moen, Bournival / new third liner, a pest, White, Scott and Bickell.
Our top 6 D: Markov, Emelin, Subban, Tinordi /"Pronger", Gorges, Diaz and Kaberle.

That requires 6 new players and 4 are on the bottom 2 lines.

So here are the questions:
1) Who are the best pests in the league?
2) What would it take to land Getzlaf? Is Plekanec / Cammalleri / 1st going to get it done?
3) What would it take to land Scott and Bickell?
4) Who is a stabilizing physical force on defense with experience?

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Old
01-01-2012, 12:10 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Traitor8 View Post
Gionta only gets 40-50 points a year ..thats' not what the average "5 m $ player" does.

Parise won't have Cammalleri type numbers...because he's simply a better player. He can do much more than Cam. When Cam is not scoring, he's useless but parise can score, playmake, play against the best players, QB a PP, etc..etc..
Shane Doan, Mikhail Grabovski are also available on the free agent market.

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01-01-2012, 12:11 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Young Gun View Post
Can all the above be sent to the ahl at the same time??
Not one of them are worth a goats ass anyway, smurf, smurf, smurf and limpy.
Cheque collectors...lol
I believe Gionta and Cammalleri are tradeable especially Cam. Gomez has to get sent down for sure (unless we somehow find a clown who's willing to take him).

Markov can be kept on LTIR. He wouldn't count against the cap and insurance would pick up his tab.

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Old
01-01-2012, 12:12 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
If this is the reason he isnt playing well he should be traded immediatly. This is the kind of attitude that will rot a team.

I don't think Plekanec is best suited as a #1 centre, he has played excellent for us but he is like Koivu was, a great #2.
People will hate to admit it, but overpayment aside, the team is better with both Gomez-Gionta and Plekanec-Cammalleri in the lineup because the opponents have to pick whom to shut down. Then, Eller and Kostitsyn and Cole and Pacioretty get room too.

The offence WILL be better when Gomez returns. And Gionta of course. Not to mention Markov.

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Old
01-01-2012, 12:15 PM
  #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
Cammalleri at 27 years old was a good risk signing. Gionta is paid what proven 20-25 goal scorers with responsible defence and heart are paid.

Gomez was overpaid in the 2006 UFA market, and is much more so today, but we already knew that.

If someone signs Parise for $8M per year, and he has Cammalleri type numbers and
some injuries, will that teams fans want to jettison him and try again for a "real" franchise player?
Parise is a better player than Cammalleri, no doubt about that. Much higher compete level and has a more rounded game, but his career offensive output doesn't put him as a "franchise" player in my opinion. Signing him to a large dollar long term contract would be just as big of a gamble (again, in my opinion) as when we signed Cammalleri in summer 2009.

Our biggest need is a different approach, one with more grit and heart. We'll need players that fit that mold, Parise definitely fits that more than Cammalleri though.

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01-01-2012, 12:18 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by JGRB View Post
Parise is a better player than Cammalleri, no doubt about that. Much higher compete level and has a more rounded game, but his career offensive output doesn't put him as a "franchise" player in my opinion. Signing him to a large dollar long term contract would be just as big of a gamble (again, in my opinion) as when we signed Cammalleri in summer 2009.

Our biggest need is a different approach, one with more grit and heart. We'll need players that fit that mold, Parise definitely fits that more than Cammalleri though.
He had 94 points and 82 points respectively in his last 2 full seasons. One of them included a 45 goal output. Let's not forget he's playing in NJ's system. Imagine him in Carbonneau's offensive system playing with Cole, Doan or Yakupov...

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Old
01-01-2012, 12:18 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Ginu View Post
Here's mine:


4. no third line that shuts down and pisses off opponents.

[....]

4. The third line has to be reworked. This may be our biggest problem because there's nobody on our third line that gets in people's faces and off their game. A Lapierre if you will.[/B]
When the Habs went to the Conference final 20 months ago, they had a highly effective, underrated and CHEAP third line capable of playing 13-15 solid minutes in Moore-Lapierre-Pyatt.

The new GM let them all go for nothing. And none are expensive even today. Big, big mistakes.

A line like that can be played against the other teams' first or second lines which opens up the ice totally for either Cole-Pacioretty or Cammalleri-Gionta or Plekanec-Kostitsyn. We actually have more offensive weapons up front than we had in Spring 2010, and a great third line would do wonders, even if none of them individually is a superstar.

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Old
01-01-2012, 12:18 PM
  #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginu View Post
Here's mine:

1. no #1 centre
2. lack of size up the middle
3. d is missing grit
4. no third line that shuts down and pisses off opponents.
4. no fourth liners who can change momentum

We're really missing White and Markov but they wouldn't solve the problem.

I wouldn't blow it up per say, because our young players are all playing well. It's Plekanec, Gionta, Cammalleri and Gomez. We need to get what we can from those players. Even Kaberle isn't that bad. If we get rid of those veterans, we're actually not that far away. The problem is that management misjudged how long it would take for these players to decline when they gave them those long contracts.

1 & 2. If Gionta is worth a 1st, I'd offer Plekanec, Cammalleri and a 1st for Getzlaf. Finally solve that problem.

3. Tinordi is the solution to our D missing grit. With him and Emelin to insulate Subban, Subban can start throwing his weight around too. We've seen him do it. If Tinordi isn't ready, we need to bring in a veteran who does that that can calm this team down. In the mould of Pronger.

4. The third line has to be reworked. This may be our biggest problem because there's nobody on our third line that gets in people's faces and off their game. A Lapierre if you will. Where does Desharnais fit?

5. White would help the fourth line. Keep Moen. Get in a Scott or Bickell. Someone who can skate, hit and drop the gloves. We need that line to create momentum.

Our top 6 would then be: Getzlaf, Eller, Kostitsyn, Pacioretty, Cole and Leblanc / Desharnais.
Our bottom 6 would be: Moen, Bournival / new third liner, a pest, White, Scott and Bickell.
Our top 6 D: Markov, Emelin, Subban, Tinordi /"Pronger", Gorges, Diaz and Kaberle.

That requires 6 new players and 4 are on the bottom 2 lines.

So here are the questions:
1) Who are the best pests in the league?
2) What would it take to land Getzlaf? Is Plekanec / Cammalleri / 1st going to get it done?
3) What would it take to land Scott and Bickell?
4) Who is a stabilizing physical force on defense with experience?
Definitely the same type of "vision" I have as to what this team needs and currently lacks.

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Old
01-01-2012, 12:27 PM
  #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
Cammalleri at 27 years old was a good risk signing. Gionta is paid what proven 20-25 goal scorers with responsible defence and heart are paid.

Gomez was overpaid in the 2006 UFA market, and is much more so today, but we already knew that.

If someone signs Parise for $8M per year, and he has Cammalleri type numbers and
some injuries, will that teams fans want to jettison him and try again for a "real" franchise player?
both are overpaid by 1.5 to 2 million based on market value but factor in them being UFA's and taxes etc..

these signings were all bad risks because it made the top 6 incredibly small and soft...with little forethought into how to actually build it properly. a distracted and grieving bob gainey basically threw **** against the wall and hoped to watch stuff stick. and then martin who did or didn't have a say in the signings, instituted a system that never lent itself to the talents of the players - but i think that's irrelevant too because we have so many cream-puffs and peripheral players in our top 6 that they can't play run and gun anyway because they are physically weak with no finish

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Old
01-01-2012, 12:30 PM
  #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginu View Post
Here's mine:

1. no #1 centre
2. lack of size up the middle
3. d is missing grit
4. no third line that shuts down and pisses off opponents.
4. no fourth liners who can change momentum

We're really missing White and Markov but they wouldn't solve the problem.

I wouldn't blow it up per say, because our young players are all playing well. It's Plekanec, Gionta, Cammalleri and Gomez. We need to get what we can from those players. Even Kaberle isn't that bad. If we get rid of those veterans, we're actually not that far away. The problem is that management misjudged how long it would take for these players to decline when they gave them those long contracts.

1 & 2. If Gionta is worth a 1st, I'd offer Plekanec, Cammalleri and a 1st for Getzlaf. Finally solve that problem.

3. Tinordi is the solution to our D missing grit. With him and Emelin to insulate Subban, Subban can start throwing his weight around too. We've seen him do it. If Tinordi isn't ready, we need to bring in a veteran who does that that can calm this team down. In the mould of Pronger.

4. The third line has to be reworked. This may be our biggest problem because there's nobody on our third line that gets in people's faces and off their game. A Lapierre if you will. Where does Desharnais fit?

5. White would help the fourth line. Keep Moen. Get in a Scott or Bickell. Someone who can skate, hit and drop the gloves. We need that line to create momentum.

Our top 6 would then be: Getzlaf, Eller, Kostitsyn, Pacioretty, Cole and Leblanc / Desharnais.
Our bottom 6 would be: Moen, Bournival / new third liner, a pest, White, Scott and Bickell.
Our top 6 D: Markov, Emelin, Subban, Tinordi /"Pronger", Gorges, Diaz and Kaberle.

That requires 6 new players and 4 are on the bottom 2 lines.

So here are the questions:
1) Who are the best pests in the league?
2) What would it take to land Getzlaf? Is Plekanec / Cammalleri / 1st going to get it done?
3) What would it take to land Scott and Bickell?
4) Who is a stabilizing physical force on defense with experience?

Very detailed and interesting post. I am still shocked how much this management group has failed to see the obvious for years. We lack SIZE, how in the world can this not be addressed year after year blows my mind.

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Old
01-01-2012, 12:37 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
Cammalleri at 27 years old was a good risk signing. Gionta is paid what proven 20-25 goal scorers with responsible defence and heart are paid.

Gomez was overpaid in the 2006 UFA market, and is much more so today, but we already knew that.

If someone signs Parise for $8M per year, and he has Cammalleri type numbers and
some injuries, will that teams fans want to jettison him and try again for a "real" franchise player?
You didn't, you argued with me that he was worth more than Ovy because he was a proven winner and Ovy was a choke artist, glad you have finally come to terms.

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01-01-2012, 12:42 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by Traitor8 View Post
He had 94 points and 82 points respectively in his last 2 full seasons. One of them included a 45 goal output. Let's not forget he's playing in NJ's system. Imagine him in Carbonneau's offensive system playing with Cole, Doan or Yakupov...
He's also had significant injuries since then and hasn't produced at that level in just that, two years. There is lingering risks there, regardless of how good he was in those two seasons which are now 2 and 3 years ago respectively.

Not saying he isn't a great player, he is. I wouldn't go as far as to call him a franchise player at this point though, although I can see why to some he would be. To me there might be 10 (if that) franchise players in this league.

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01-01-2012, 12:44 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Half the players in the NHL are overpaid according to HF.

Do you think we're NOT going to end up with an overpaid player if we go UFA shopping?
I wouldn't go UFA shopping. We're nowhere near needing to do this. The team isn't competitive enough to overpay, and if I were to overpay it wouldn't be on 5'8 midgets.

I would build the team through proper drafting and offset the team with the odd UFA when the time is right, as of right now, more useless spending is exactly what this team should avoid.

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01-01-2012, 12:45 PM
  #195
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if the season is lost i hope the team gets rid of big cap [;ayers.
draft high then try big in FA

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01-01-2012, 12:46 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by JGRB View Post
He's also had significant injuries since then and hasn't produced at that level in just that, two years. There is lingering risks there, regardless of how good he was in those two seasons which are now 2 and 3 years ago respectively.

Not saying he isn't a great player, he is. I wouldn't go as far as to call him a franchise player at this point though, although I can see why to some he would be. To me there might be 10 (if that) franchise players in this league.
By definition, there are 30 franchise players in the league.

By definition, there are 30 1st line Centers in the league.
By definition, there are 30 1st Defenseman in the league.
By definition, there are 30 starting goalies in the league

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01-01-2012, 12:55 PM
  #197
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What can you say that hasn't been said?

I think the toughest part is seeing that this team can't even do the simplest, most basic things properly. They can't make passes. They can't bring the puck up ice, they can't hit the net.

It's depressing.

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01-01-2012, 12:59 PM
  #198
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When do you suggest they build the team?
Through the draft. Doesn't mean you can't sign free agents but they shouldn't be more than half of your top 6. Especially when we ship out young players for nothing and they end up with similar production than those same free agents for half the cost when given a chance. FA signings should at the very least be something we lack in the system like Cole was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
Cammalleri at 27 years old was a good risk signing. Gionta is paid what proven 20-25 goal scorers with responsible defence and heart are paid.

Gomez was overpaid in the 2006 UFA market, and is much more so today, but we already knew that.

If someone signs Parise for $8M per year, and he has Cammalleri type numbers and
some injuries, will that teams fans want to jettison him and try again for a "real" franchise player?
I personally, as much as I think he is a great player and much better than Cammalleri (both in term of offence and two way-play), don't even want Parise this summer. Maybe just me, but I think foward are a much riskier signing than dmen on the market, longterm. Mostly since forward tend to peak in term of offensive production before they actually hit the market, while dmen tend to get better right after. Althought two-way foward may actually peak later than purely offensive ones and from what I know of Parise he is a pretty good two-way guy. I just doubt we'll be getting 90+ points Parise and this is what we'll be paying him for. (just like we wouldn't be getting a 100 pts Staal if we traded for him)

(Before people give me examples of case where this isn't true, I'm just talking about something I've noticed and this doesn't always apply.)

I wouldn't be mad if we managed to get him on a good contact but I would prefer signing a guy like Suter. It just seems that getting your "franshise" foward in free agency never actually works. As for "franshise" Dmen, well those guys rarely reach free agency (much more rarely than big name fowards)but the last time one did is working out pretty well for the team that got him. Parise would be a perfect signing for a team where he is the missing piece or a piece to put them over the top.(like Hossa was for Chicago) We aren't that team. Just my two cents.

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01-01-2012, 12:59 PM
  #199
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By definition, there are 30 franchise players in the league.

By definition, there are 30 1st line Centers in the league.
By definition, there are 30 1st Defenseman in the league.
By definition, there are 30 starting goalies in the league
By definition.

There is a reason why 14 teams miss the playoffs every year and only a handful are considered contenders as well.

To me a franchise player is one you can build your team around for 10+ years and is also your biggest marketing draw. Not all teams have one.

Tomas Plekanec is our #1 center right now, where would you rank him amongst the rest of the league? Depending on who you ask he's in the high 20s or even outside of the Top 30 all together. Same for PK Subban.

Parise is probably a Top 15-20 player in the NHL for me, but he still hasn't showed me the type of dominance he was showing 2-3 seasons ago. Is it the playing style of his team? Is it the injuries? I don't know. All I know is while I would be happy to have him on the team I'd definitely be concerned with a massive contract over a long term.

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01-01-2012, 01:02 PM
  #200
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Originally Posted by Traitor8 View Post
He had 94 points and 82 points respectively in his last 2 full seasons. One of them included a 45 goal output. Let's not forget he's playing in NJ's system. Imagine him in Carbonneau's offensive system playing with Cole, Doan or Yakupov...
Carbonneau's offensive system?? Carbo did not even have a system, the guy barely knew what he was doing. It seemed he was coaching in pee-wee. He benefited from having a completely healthy roster one season, and heavily relied on the PP.

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem having Parise with Cole and Doan. But I want no part of Carbo, that's just ridiculous.

Also, not sure if you've watched NJ these past couple of seasons, but they are not at all what they used to be. Even if they were though, people have to stop with the defensive system=less offensive output. It's far from the truth.

In any event, we need a coach that is well structured.

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