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Would all those who mocked me for saying Desharnais could make it in the NHL stand up

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Old
01-01-2012, 12:00 AM
  #251
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
You know plekanec wouldn't be a top 3 center in pittsburg right? So obviously because his position is filled on a good team, it means he's a 13th forward. In NYR they have Staal, Girardi, MDZ, & Mcdonagh all playing top 4 minutes and doing well. Perhaps Subban can't break that combination, subban is therefore a bust. Oh yah, Lars eller would also barely have a spot on 'great teams' like boston. Not tough enough for 4th line and they have 3 lines set with better two-way forwards and guys not named pouliot. They like pouliot now and so be it, but seems Eller is a bust too. Carey Price's #s don't come close to Boston's goalies, therefore Price is a 3rd string goalie. I'm glad you opened my eyes, I never knew how bad this team was.
Not true. Plekanec is significantly better than Jordan Staal.

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01-01-2012, 12:21 AM
  #252
LyricalLyricist
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Originally Posted by The Kremelin Wall View Post
Not true. Plekanec is significantly better than Jordan Staal.
Jordan Staal plays defensive matchups and is on pace for nearly 40 goals. He's only 23 years old and hasn't been developed as a scorer. Imagine if he had more practice doing top 6 matchups and developed his offense game on another team. At beginning of the year wasn't Staal at a PPG clip when Malkin and Crosby were out? Says it all, at only 23. Sure, it's debateable but don't say 'significantly', that's wrong. They were similar.

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01-01-2012, 12:33 AM
  #253
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Jordan Staal plays defensive matchups and is on pace for nearly 40 goals. He's only 23 years old and hasn't been developed as a scorer. Imagine if he had more practice doing top 6 matchups and developed his offense game on another team. At beginning of the year wasn't Staal at a PPG clip when Malkin and Crosby were out? Says it all, at only 23. Sure, it's debateable but don't say 'significantly', that's wrong. They were similar.
Staal's career high is 49 points, which is what he's on pace for now. 70 >> 49. Plekanec is just better offensively. Staal has been getting PP time with or without Crosby and Malkin in the lineup. It is significant. If Jordan Staal was our number one instead of Plek we'd be where Columbus is.

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01-01-2012, 02:05 AM
  #254
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Originally Posted by zx81 View Post
While DD is not the best in the D zone it's more of a positioning problem than lost battles. I don't remember many goals that were caused by an opponent who stripped the puck from him. What I noticed is that he's sometimes late to cover his man in the slot. That can be improved. He's way more physically punished in the offensive zone than in the D zone....yet he's still producing in ES situations (second on the team with 18 ES pts behind MaxPac who has 21 ES pts)
\
DD seems to position himself poorly in the defensive zone on a fairly regular basis. He is often a few feet away from his defensive responsibility-he cheats toward the blue line.

I believe this is a function of how he's played his entire career. He's always been a top point producer and has scored a ton of points on quick transitions. At this level, his speed is not such that he's going to be able to generate as many transition points, but his instincts are still telling him to "cheat" a bit. Unfortunately, when he does this, he gives his defensive responsibility a positioning edge from which he can't often recover. He needs to accept the fact that he isn't going to generate very many points in quick transition in the NHL and he will cost his team too many goals against unless he makes the appropriate defensive positioning adjustment.

I'm sure that DD and the coaching staff are very aware of this and that he will show improvement in these defensive deficiencies in the near future.


Last edited by Cyclones Rock: 01-01-2012 at 02:11 AM.
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01-01-2012, 02:50 AM
  #255
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Originally Posted by The Kremelin Wall View Post
Staal's career high is 49 points, which is what he's on pace for now. 70 >> 49. Plekanec is just better offensively. Staal has been getting PP time with or without Crosby and Malkin in the lineup. It is significant. If Jordan Staal was our number one instead of Plek we'd be where Columbus is.
Staal is also much younger. I'm not sure how you compare that. You actually feel as if Jordan Staal in a first line role wouldn't surpass Plekanec? Maybe not out of the gate, but if you give him time to adjust, yes. Staal's goal total as an 18 year old is tied with Plekanec's career high. I'm not trying to say Staal is significantly better than plekanec. The exact opposite, the line of that post, although not really having plekanec as the focus is saying pittsburg would likely take staal over plekanec if they had to choose one for 3rd line role. So plekanec wouldn't make 'top 3 centers' on that team. On a first line offensive role? Plekanec has more experience.

In the 8 games Malkin AND Crosby were out Staal had 7 points in 8 GP.

Maybe Plekanec is better, I won't argue something debatable, but plekanec being significantly better? That's not true at all. If PG calls up Shero and says Plekanec for Staal, one on one, Shero barely thinks about it. Looking at stats to determine how good Staal is would be wrong. Our very own Bob Gainey had 501 Pts in 1160 GP. You know where he is? HHOF, retired number in montreal ahead of talented players who had better offensive careers. Don't let the numbers fool you, if Staal were let free he's a 35-40 goal 70 point two-way center. Basically Jeff Carter with better defensive awareness.

Also, what staal's on pace for over 82 GP is 52 points, and not sure where you get 70 for plekanec as he's on pace for 62.

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01-01-2012, 07:06 AM
  #256
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This thread is beyond retarded. The players love DD. He's putting up a good number of points and yet we still find ways to hate on him. I'm glad you morons don't run this team.
absolutely , I am glad we have a wonderful management team running this great ship
we are contenders , we have the best asset management people in the buisness

we are one player away from a cup

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01-01-2012, 01:31 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Staal is also much younger. I'm not sure how you compare that. You actually feel as if Jordan Staal in a first line role wouldn't surpass Plekanec? Maybe not out of the gate, but if you give him time to adjust, yes. Staal's goal total as an 18 year old is tied with Plekanec's career high. I'm not trying to say Staal is significantly better than plekanec. The exact opposite, the line of that post, although not really having plekanec as the focus is saying pittsburg would likely take staal over plekanec if they had to choose one for 3rd line role. So plekanec wouldn't make 'top 3 centers' on that team. On a first line offensive role? Plekanec has more experience.

In the 8 games Malkin AND Crosby were out Staal had 7 points in 8 GP.

Maybe Plekanec is better, I won't argue something debatable, but plekanec being significantly better? That's not true at all. If PG calls up Shero and says Plekanec for Staal, one on one, Shero barely thinks about it. Looking at stats to determine how good Staal is would be wrong. Our very own Bob Gainey had 501 Pts in 1160 GP. You know where he is? HHOF, retired number in montreal ahead of talented players who had better offensive careers. Don't let the numbers fool you, if Staal were let free he's a 35-40 goal 70 point two-way center. Basically Jeff Carter with better defensive awareness.

Also, what staal's on pace for over 82 GP is 52 points, and not sure where you get 70 for plekanec as he's on pace for 62.
As much as I love Plekanec, if you offered me Staal for Pleks, I'd drive Plekanec to the airport (as long as Staal was extended).

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01-01-2012, 01:36 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by The Kremelin Wall View Post
Not true. Plekanec is significantly better than Jordan Staal.
Huh? Lol. Hell no he ain't! Staal is putting up almost the same numbers, or close, in a 3rd line defensive job behind the 2 best centers in the NHL, 6 years younger.

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01-01-2012, 02:18 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Jordan Staal plays defensive matchups and is on pace for nearly 40 goals. He's only 23 years old and hasn't been developed as a scorer. Imagine if he had more practice doing top 6 matchups and developed his offense game on another team. At beginning of the year wasn't Staal at a PPG clip when Malkin and Crosby were out? Says it all, at only 23. Sure, it's debateable but don't say 'significantly', that's wrong. They were similar.
Just for the record, but i think its important in the current talk, and possibly completely (which is quite telling) forgotten :

Plekanec matchups are harder than Staal's. Much harder. He is used to play against a better opposition, and much more often in a defensive scenario.

I know that we love to bash our own players, but our 1st line is supposed to be a shutdown unit rather than really focused on the offensive side of the job.
Plekanec is doing pretty much the same job that Staal is doing. But even more defensive.

Except that the supporting cast is way better for Staal. The wingers are maybe not as good (thats almost irrelevant as they're almost all inadequate for the task) but the other centers, well...not the same state of mind at all.
And did i talk about the D ? There is a really solid and experienced squad in Pittsburgh, especially with a shutdown specialist in Michalek.
We have 2 proven players and thats it.

As far as we know, Plekanec is able to consistently play against 1st liners, and not being killed while doing so without any support.
Staal is absolutely not as proven (despite the fact that they are 100 games apart in NHL experience...) as Plekanec is, and you should not forget that when you try to compare the players.

I dont think there is many players able to do a better job than Plekanec in such a situation. Because thats the most important thing. Could Staal be better than Plekanec in the current scenario ?

I am absolutely not sure of that. But the grass is greener on the other side, right ?
If Staal is not that big and canadian, im quite sure that hes not praised that much.

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01-01-2012, 02:29 PM
  #260
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If Staal is not that big and canadian, im quite sure that hes not praised that much.
A big center is a factor. Its not the be all end all but its a factor because its elusive. Him being Canadian HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY OF IT.

Montreal hasnt had a center like a Staal in what 15-20 years now?

The excitement over someone like Staal is the fact he is 6-4, 220 pounds, is just 23 and has already essentially two 50 point seasons under his belt in a non offensive role. Even on this years Pens where there is no Crosby, he is 8th on Pittsburgh in PP time, last year 10th, year before that 8th. Top PP minutes would likely add 10-20 points more a year. He already has three 20 goal seasons under his belt as well. Thats why any team would love to have a player like this and its a tough pill for people to swallow because down the middle, Pittsburgh already has Malkin and Crosby.

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01-01-2012, 02:33 PM
  #261
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Huh? Lol. Hell no he ain't! Staal is putting up almost the same numbers, or close, in a 3rd line defensive job behind the 2 best centers in the NHL, 6 years younger.
Crosby hasn't played in a year. Malkin was out most of that time also. Staal hasn't gotten "third line" minutes ever in his career. Pittsburgh ran three lines when all three were healthy. Staal still got 20 minutes a game with a full PP in there. People just enjoy using the "best centers" excuse to cover up the fact that Staal just isn't creative offensively and no matter where he would have been drafted would not have developed into a #1C offensively.

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01-01-2012, 02:36 PM
  #262
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I agree with Rutabaga and Kremelin. Besides even should Jordan Staal be superior to Plekanec its irrevelant to the case. Staal isn't a Hab and likely never will be. Plekanec is the best we have and he's not bad at all.

We have a relatively young player of a good caliber, we should hang on to him. He can probably contribute at a high level for another 4-5 years and we can certainly ice a competitive team in that time frame so he can be part of a ''future'' core that excludes other older players currently on the team.

Trading Plekanec means we intend to tank for many, many years. We need to keep some veterans to surround the young players otherwise it will be hell to compete and we'll enter the circle of eternal suckitude (even worse than the circle of eternal mediocrity).


Last edited by FlyingKostitsyn: 01-01-2012 at 02:43 PM.
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01-01-2012, 03:24 PM
  #263
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A big center is a factor. Its not the be all end all but its a factor because its elusive. Him being Canadian HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY OF IT.

Montreal hasnt had a center like a Staal in what 15-20 years now?

The excitement over someone like Staal is the fact he is 6-4, 220 pounds, is just 23 and has already essentially two 50 point seasons under his belt in a non offensive role. Even on this years Pens where there is no Crosby, he is 8th on Pittsburgh in PP time, last year 10th, year before that 8th. Top PP minutes would likely add 10-20 points more a year. He already has three 20 goal seasons under his belt as well. Thats why any team would love to have a player like this and its a tough pill for people to swallow because down the middle, Pittsburgh already has Malkin and Crosby.
Maybe not on this board, but i do know there is a bias towards the european-born players in the medias, at least.

He can be the smallest or the fattest player in the world, it doesnt matter.
What matters is his ability, on the ice, to be a good player, and to fit in your team if you ever have to trade for him.

Again, the non-offensive role is very debatable, especially since Crosby is out for a year now.
Staal is considered as a defensive specialist, fine, but you have to remember that Plekanec's matchups are harder. Plekanec is also a defensive specialist, and he's used, overall, for several years now, in a more defensive role than Staal is.

Imagine if Staal blabla, we can do exactly the same with Plekanec.


Top PP minutes are not going to change anything, because that PP time is going to eat ES or SH time.
The bonus in points scored on the PP is not really relevant. Staal's offensive numbers are never going to beat Plekanec's as long as both Staal, Malkin and Crosby are in the same team, and if they're improving, they're probably going to hurt the defensive part of his job.


If you change the player, you knew what you had, but you dont know if Staal will be able to play as strongly as Plekanec was able to.

And we have good reasons to think that Plekanec is more likely better than Staal in the situation we have.
I'll also say that Eller's defensive awareness is another reason about why its not a good idea. Staal brings absolutely nothing that we dont have.

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01-01-2012, 03:43 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
Trading Plekanec means we intend to tank for many, many years. We need to keep some veterans to surround the young players otherwise it will be hell to compete and we'll enter the circle of eternal suckitude (even worse than the circle of eternal mediocrity).
Wich is why some teams with tons of high draft picks never get out of hell. They just throw a bunch of 18 year old to the wolves and hope they will devellop into top players by themselves. Only works in rare talent.

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01-01-2012, 04:24 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by The Kremelin Wall View Post
Crosby hasn't played in a year. Malkin was out most of that time also. Staal hasn't gotten "third line" minutes ever in his career. Pittsburgh ran three lines when all three were healthy. Staal still got 20 minutes a game with a full PP in there. People just enjoy using the "best centers" excuse to cover up the fact that Staal just isn't creative offensively and no matter where he would have been drafted would not have developed into a #1C offensively.
Plekanec isn't either. He is useless at even strength when the puck has been in the offensive zone for more than 5 seconds. No patience, goes a 100 mph yet loses battles, below average vision, forces the puck in high traffic areas, can't cycle the puck, etc.

Why do you think Cammy doesn't want to play with him anymore?! Why is AK more successful with Eller?! Why has our best winger yet to play a good game with him?!

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01-01-2012, 07:24 PM
  #266
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Wow, I didn't mean to start a debate. All I was saying is sure, plekanec may be better than Staal, I can go with that, but SIGNIFICANTLY better is just wrong. They're about equal but Staal is bigger and much younger. His size and skillset fits a need in montreal more than plekanec.

Hell, some think that Eller has first line center potential. If Eller has 1st line center potential Staal has Gretzky potential.

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