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2011-12 All Purpose Kings Trade Rumors and Proposals Thread II

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Old
01-03-2012, 04:14 PM
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
Funny. He was on the same piss poor team the last several years and has scored at a higher clip every year but his rookie year. He finally gets someone (Carter) to take the pressure off him, and he's on pace for arguably his worst season.

Maybe Nash's one dimensional play is catching up to him and he's not scoring because he's overrated?

Like I said, I like him, but at that cap hit and the way he's producing, not to mention the inflated price it would take to get him, pass. We rag on guys enough here for not scoring. He has a cap hit double what any of our wingers has and isn't scoring enough. Why gut the team for that?

Overrated.
Or maybe one year doesn't define someone's talent. Especially when that year isn't even over yet...

Not to mention that new center has been injured, hates being there, and is performing at the same clip as the rest of the team.

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Old
01-03-2012, 06:08 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Telos View Post
Or maybe one year doesn't define someone's talent. Especially when that year isn't even over yet...
.

A 30 goals scorer with 60+ pts isn't worth 7.8 Million a year.

He's been paid as a franchise cornerstone, which he could be, but who would you rather? 30 goals and 67 pts from Nash or 30 goals, great defense, and 80 pts from Kopitar? Or heck... 70pts and nearly 3 Million less from Richards?

Nash was suppose to be the next great Power Forward. Iginla or LeClair reincarnated. His problem isn't talent. His problem is the Blue Jackets. He's been the only player on that team since he was 18 years old that anyone cared about. That means he's been taking a battering. I think the combination of phyiscal play and the meaningless of the games he plays is turning a guy who should be one of the best players in the league into "just" a 60pt player on a bad team.

I feel for the guy. I think it's a hard thing to want to be better and put in the time to push to the next level when you know no matter what you do individually the season is already over in January. 40 more meaningless games....

Columbus is where talent goes to die.

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01-03-2012, 06:22 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
I still think you guys have seen your new scoring winger the past two games....

Richards on Kopitar's wing,

The other two lines have shown they can play hard and get results, I think it stays status quo....
To me, Richards just doesn't look comfortable out there on wing. I think he prefers controlling the play. But, I'm liking the four lines and the style and intensity of attack under Sutter. So, sure, let him stay out there at least until Gagne comes back.

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01-03-2012, 06:51 PM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tadite View Post
A 30 goals scorer with 60+ pts isn't worth 7.8 Million a year.

He's been paid as a franchise cornerstone, which he could be, but who would you rather? 30 goals and 67 pts from Nash or 30 goals, great defense, and 80 pts from Kopitar? Or heck... 70pts and nearly 3 Million less from Richards?

Nash was suppose to be the next great Power Forward. Iginla or LeClair reincarnated. His problem isn't talent. His problem is the Blue Jackets. He's been the only player on that team since he was 18 years old that anyone cared about. That means he's been taking a battering. I think the combination of phyiscal play and the meaningless of the games he plays is turning a guy who should be one of the best players in the league into "just" a 60pt player on a bad team.

I feel for the guy. I think it's a hard thing to want to be better and put in the time to push to the next level when you know no matter what you do individually the season is already over in January. 40 more meaningless games....

Columbus is where talent goes to die.
How many 30-40 goal scorers do you think exist? Especially with the skillset of Nash... Right now there are only 32 players in the entire league at a pace of 30 or more goals on the season, and only 5 of those players are on pace of 40. Obviously less than that is going to actually achieve either of those plateaus by season's end. Out of those players less than 10 have the comparable skill of Nash. Players of this caliber are few and far between. It is the same argument we were faced with with Kovalchuk.

Richards would be paid more if he didn't take the home discount for Philly and of course I would want Kopitar more, but it isn't a choice. If we acquire Nash, we aren't forced to get rid of Kopitar, Doughty, or some other nonsense. First of all, if we got him at the deadline, he would be pro-rated. Also, next season we are sitting pretty money wise. Here is our roster next season as it stands including Nash (assuming we don't give up signed roster players for him, which we probably will, but that only makes the financial situation better):

CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR

FORWARDS
Rick Nash ($7.800m) / Anze Kopitar ($6.800m) / Dustin Brown ($3.175m)
Simon Gagne ($3.500m) / Mike Richards ($5.750m) / Justin Williams ($3.650m)
Kyle Clifford ($0.870m) / Andrei Loktionov ($0.816m) / Trevor Lewis ($0.725m)
Prospect/UFA / Brad Richardson ($1.175m) / Kevin Westgarth ($0.725m)

DEFENSEMEN
Jack Johnson ($4.357m) / Drew Doughty ($7.000m)
Rob Scuderi ($3.400m) / Vyacheslav Voinov ($0.816m)
Alec Martinez ($0.737m) / Matt Greene ($2.950m)
Davis Drewiske ($0.616m)

GOALTENDERS
Jonathan Quick ($1.800m) / Jonathan Bernier ($1.250m)

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $57,914,642; BONUSES: $342,500
CAP SPACE (20-man roster): $6,385,358

Plenty of cap space to improve the roster, re-sign Mitchell, Quick, look for bottom 6 talent and do whatever it is you need to do...

Bottom line, you argued just what I am arguing. Columbus is pulling him down. I don't expect him to be a 50 goal Kovalchuk, but he should be a dominant 30+ goal player on this even this team. He is without a doubt one of the best power forwards in the game and he guarantees goals and buries his chances. That is exactly the kind of player we have been talking about. It is the same with a Kovalchuk, Parise, Gaborik, etc... We need a difference maker that guarantees goals. We need to fill that void that has been empty since Palffy left this team... It's the last major thing we have left on our list. After that, the only complaint is finding solid bottom 6 talent, which shouldn't be a problem at all with our assets...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc620 View Post
To me, Richards just doesn't look comfortable out there on wing. I think he prefers controlling the play. But, I'm liking the four lines and the style and intensity of attack under Sutter. So, sure, let him stay out there at least until Gagne comes back.
Agreed. He is a natural center. Hopefully this experiment is short lived. He is a great player and I am sure the top line will still excel like they did last night, but he doesn't belong there and it puts too much of our high end talent all on one line for the opponent to focus on.

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01-03-2012, 07:33 PM
  #105
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Nash has never been a dish man. He has always been a trigger man.

And if he is a trigger man that is only going to average about 35 goals a year and maybe 30-40 assists. I am not going to pay him 7.8 million dollars for roughly 70-80 points. Ever.


I mean look at Nash's numbers.


He has only had over 70 points ONCE.

Granted you can say that that is because he is playing on a Columbus team with no one. Kopitar has had over 70 points 3 times already in his career. AND he plays some of the best two way hockey around. You could argue that HE has had no offensive support over that amount of time also.

How about Jarome Iginla?

7 mil a season and he has had epic numbers on offensively stunted Calgary teams. 3 90+ seasons and 2 80+ seasons.

Loui Eriksson has quietly put up 2 70+ point seasons in Dallas and he makes just shy of 4.5.

You can't tell me that Nash not putting up 80 and 90 point seasons is all on Columbus having bad players. Some of that is on Nash and the fact that he is easily the most overrated player in hockey.

Especially with that hefty price tag of almost 8 million dollars. He is 27 years old. Seen the playoffs just once in a 4 game sweep...and never shot higher then 80 points or 70 points on a regular basis. Premier power forward? I think that is arguable.


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01-03-2012, 07:50 PM
  #106
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You want a list of premier power forwards ahead of Nash imo?


Iginla
Perry
Getzlaf (yea awful seasons but still a fantastic power forward)
Eric Staal (although he is considered a hybrid sniper/PF)
Franzen
Doan
Thornton (for all the hate he gets he is a way more complete power forward then Nash)
Kesler



Not one of them is making more then Rick Nash. A lot of em don't even come close...except Thornton. It's not to say Nash isn't talented. But he isn't worth the amount you'd have to pay him and the number of prospects/picks/roster players you'd have to give up to give him. Not to mention his contract likely handcuffs you from bringing in more talent. Or retaining what you already have when contracts come up.

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01-03-2012, 08:10 PM
  #107
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I've found your bias. I am not talking about points. I don't care about points, we have enough points. I care about goals. We don't need someone to dish the puck. We have two of the best young two-way centers in the game and plenty of players that can pass the puck. We don't have anyone that can find the back of the net on a consistent basis. We need a goal scorer.

You and I disagree vastly on Nash's ranking, and I would bet if we asked around the league, like some of these segments have like I linked earlier, Nash would be ranked higher, but it doesn't matter because it is undeniable that he is a goal scoring power forward that guarantees goals. That is all we need.

Yes, he is overpaid, but who isn't? We can't trade for anyone with a more reasonable contract and that ability, and we would have to overpay anyone to entice them to LA anyway. He is making a premium because it is Columbus and they had to sweeten the pot to convince him to stay. Doesn't matter, he still fits in our salary structure and would be a massive boost to our offensive credibility.

Iginla is too old, and Erickson would cost too much in trade versus the fact that he is another disher and doesn't guarantee goals on the same level Nash does. If you are going to spend those kinds of assets, you might as well get the best player. You are stats mongering. Everyone in the league will tell you Nash is the best player between them.

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01-03-2012, 08:28 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Telos View Post

Everyone in the league will tell you Nash is the best player between them.
And I guarantee you you will find a good majority of people like myself who think Nash is terribly overrated.

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01-03-2012, 08:43 PM
  #109
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For our team, I think Iginla would be a better fit. Iginla at 34 plays with more grit, tenacity and energy than a guy like Nash while putting up equally if not better numbers. Besides, we need a RW more than we need a LW.

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01-03-2012, 08:43 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaygokings View Post
And I guarantee you you will find a good majority of people like myself who think Nash is terribly overrated.
Overrated or not. His salary fits and he is exactly what the Kings need.

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01-03-2012, 08:45 PM
  #111
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I'd rather have Iginla on the Kings than Rick Nash. I've seen Iginla turn it on when his team needs him. You rarely get to see that with Nash. He's another one of those passenger type forwards. The Kings need a forward who will take charge.

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01-03-2012, 08:48 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
I'd rather have Iginla on the Kings than Rick Nash. I've seen Iginla turn it on when his team needs him. You rarely get to see that with Nash. He's another one of those passenger type forwards. The Kings need a forward who will take charge.
I'm not arguing for Nash over Iginla in the short term. I am merely arguing against the turning away of Nash for a reasonable price because of some HF board misconceived notion that he is overrated. Which doesn't exist amongst the top brass or internally within the NHL and is merely a response to fans on message boards and their opinions.

I agree, for this team, I would rather have Iginla right this very second. Of course, that depends on assets. If we are paying Roster player+ top prospect + 1st ++ for the guy, I would rather have Nash. Iginla would likely not be on this team or performing at an elite pace by the time we are ready to go to the finals, Nash will still be here ready to go.

I disagree with Nash being a passenger though.

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01-03-2012, 08:50 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Telos View Post
Overrated or not. His salary fits and he is exactly what the Kings need.
Yea his salary fits, until we need to resign Quick and have more then 4 or 5 players with talent.

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01-03-2012, 08:51 PM
  #114
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If the Blue Jackets are the Titanic, Nash could be a passenger or the ship's captain and it wouldn't matter either way. It was the same knock against Luongo when he was playing in Florida. Nash has performed in the Olympics and I think he'd be stellar on a good team.

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01-03-2012, 08:55 PM
  #115
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Our problem is bottom 6 scoring and secondary scoring. Adding Nash not only doesn't solve that problem it promotes further struggles with that aspect.

You are investing more money into a top 6 forward, and that means less money to the bottom 6.


Quote:
CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR

FORWARDS
Rick Nash ($7.800m) / Anze Kopitar ($6.800m) / Dustin Brown ($3.175m)
Simon Gagne ($3.500m) / Mike Richards ($5.750m) / Justin Williams ($3.650m)
Kyle Clifford ($0.870m) / Andrei Loktionov ($0.816m) / Trevor Lewis ($0.725m)
Prospect/UFA / Brad Richardson ($1.175m) / Kevin Westgarth ($0.725m)

DEFENSEMEN
Jack Johnson ($4.357m) / Drew Doughty ($7.000m)
Rob Scuderi ($3.400m) / Vyacheslav Voinov ($0.816m)
Alec Martinez ($0.737m) / Matt Greene ($2.950m)
Davis Drewiske ($0.616m)

GOALTENDERS
Jonathan Quick ($1.800m) / Jonathan Bernier ($1.250m)

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $57,914,642; BONUSES: $342,500
CAP SPACE (20-man roster): $6,385,358

With this scenario what happens when we resign Quick? Or Voynov, or Clifford?

It's a sexy top 6 but your bottom 6 is 5 players making barely league minimum, and one that is making 1.1.

Good luck finding offense when teams lock down 1 of our top 2 lines. Then we have only one effective line.

I still like the Detroit mentality...you look up and down their lineup. There is skill and capability on each line. They don't just sink a ton of money into 3 or 4 players.

With that lineup we've essentially become Montreal...or New Jersey...where we have all of our money sunk in to too few players. And when those players slump, so goes the team.

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01-03-2012, 08:57 PM
  #116
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I wouldn't turn down Nash at a reasonable price, but I don't see him being moved for anything less than future building blocks or young players who can help now. The Kings do have a couple of those types in Johnson and Bernier, but I think Columbus is going to look for more, like a good young forward. I could see the Flames possibly moving Iginla if they're out of the playoff picture, but Nash seems to be the face of the Jackets.

They trade him, then they're going to lose a ton of fans in the process. Not to mention that Jeff Carter will not want to stay in Columbus any longer if they do move the only other skilled forward he has to play with.

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01-03-2012, 08:58 PM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaygokings View Post
Yea his salary fits, until we need to resign Quick and have more then 4 or 5 players with talent.
Quick fits fine as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaygokings View Post
Our problem is bottom 6 scoring and secondary scoring. Adding Nash not only doesn't solve that problem it promotes further struggles with that aspect.

You are investing more money into a top 6 forward, and that means less money to the bottom 6.





With this scenario what happens when we resign Quick? Or Voynov, or Clifford?

It's a sexy top 6 but your bottom 6 is 5 players making barely league minimum, and one that is making 1.1.

Good luck finding offense when teams lock down 1 of our top 2 lines. Then we have only one effective line.

I still like the Detroit mentality...you look up and down their lineup. Their is skill and capability on each line. They don't just sink a ton of money into 3 or 4 players.

With that lineup we've essentially become Montreal...or New Jersey...where we have all of our money sunk in to too few players. And when those players slump, so goes the team.
Bottom 6 isn't more important than scoring more that a goal or two per game.

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01-03-2012, 09:02 PM
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
I wouldn't turn down Nash at a reasonable price, but I don't see him being moved for anything less than future building blocks or young players who can help now. The Kings do have a couple of those types in Johnson and Bernier, but I think Columbus is going to look for more, like a good young forward. I could see the Flames possibly moving Iginla if they're out of the playoff picture, but Nash seems to be the face of the Jackets.

They trade him, then they're going to lose a ton of fans in the process. Not to mention that Jeff Carter will not want to stay in Columbus any longer if they do move the only other skilled forward he has to play with.
Pretty much. I am not arguing it is viable either

I would rather have Carter, but Nash has been there longer, and I can't think that he is happy after this season. The Jackets are sinking fast, and if they deal either player they would be doing so for building blocks, as you said, which is our specialty.

Either way, we need to acquire a goal scorer with a nose for the net and all I am saying is that scratching Nash off your list because of some conjured notion that he is overrated on online message boards is laughable.

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01-03-2012, 09:03 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Telos View Post
Quick fits fine as well.



Bottom 6 isn't more important than scoring more that a goal or two per game.
So what happens when Nash-Kopitar-Brown are shut down for a game or two when the other teams top line and pairing is matched up on em?

You are relying on Richards, Gagne, and Williams...two of which have had massive slumps this season and been a cog in the bad Goals per game equation....

and a bunch of league minimum forwards who ALSO have been unproductive this season.

I'd rather not have Nash..but rather insert 2 forwards into the bottom 6 with that money....ala LaRose/Gaustad or something of the like if you catch me.

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01-03-2012, 09:08 PM
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaygokings View Post
So what happens when Nash-Kopitar-Brown are shut down for a game or two when the other teams top line and pairing is matched up on em?

You are relying on Richards, Gagne, and Williams...two of which have had massive slumps this season and been a cog in the bad Goals per game equation....

and a bunch of league minimum forwards who ALSO have been unproductive this season.
What is your genius solution to win the Kings a Stanley Cup? You have to try. You can't sit on your hands and do nothing. We need a goal scorer. Who is your almighty champion? None of our players can hit the broad side of a barn. Our bottom 6 is not THAT terrible that we have to ignore what the cause of our woes really is. Other teams get a lot more offense from their top 6 than we do. Your solution is to abandon the top 6 and spend it all on overpriced bottom 6'ers instead? Or blow a fortune on Eriksson, the same that would get us a player like Iginla or Nash, and then the rest on the bottom 6 and hope we develop a goal scorer? We need goals. Not points, not some stat sheet show card. Goals.

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01-03-2012, 09:08 PM
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaygokings View Post
Our problem is bottom 6 scoring and secondary scoring. Adding Nash not only doesn't solve that problem it promotes further struggles with that aspect.

You are investing more money into a top 6 forward, and that means less money to the bottom 6.





With this scenario what happens when we resign Quick? Or Voynov, or Clifford?

It's a sexy top 6 but your bottom 6 is 5 players making barely league minimum, and one that is making 1.1.

Good luck finding offense when teams lock down 1 of our top 2 lines. Then we have only one effective line.

I still like the Detroit mentality...you look up and down their lineup. There is skill and capability on each line. They don't just sink a ton of money into 3 or 4 players.

With that lineup we've essentially become Montreal...or New Jersey...where we have all of our money sunk in to too few players. And when those players slump, so goes the team.
Actually, it's not that sexy. With Gagne and JW as our top 6, not so much.

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01-03-2012, 09:12 PM
  #122
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It's funny that we're having an argument about a deal that will almost certainly never happen, or even be discussed, sense we don't have the pieces anymore.

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01-03-2012, 09:14 PM
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KopitarFAN View Post
It's funny that we're having an argument about a deal that will almost certainly never happen, or even be discussed, sense we don't have the pieces anymore.
Better chance of us landing Iginla or Nash via trade than acquiring Parise as a ufa. And I'm almost certain, our off-season will be full of Parise speculations.

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01-03-2012, 09:15 PM
  #124
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Wings fan here.

Do you guys think LA have any interest in trading Stoll to Detroit? What would you guys want in return? (please be realistic)

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01-03-2012, 09:17 PM
  #125
Josh Deitell
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In theory you could roll Kopitar, Nash, and Richards separately. With each guy playing ~20m a night you'd have the whole game covered.

ie
Brown - Kopitar - Williams
Gagne - Loktionov - Nash
Penner - Richards - Richardson
Clifford - Stoll - Lewis

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