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Old
01-04-2012, 01:42 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
See I'm okay with fighting but I agree with this assessment. It's sad to have 16 year olds fighting in a sport that they may not go pro in. I understand the importance of protecting yourself and your teammates.

What about the instigator rule?
I'm against this rule, BIG TIME. I think, like someone stated (Cooke) mauls someone, then gets challenged, by someone, then Cooke gets less than the guy protecting his teammate. That's garbage.

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01-04-2012, 02:20 PM
  #27
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I enjoy watching fighting, but if it was removed from the game, thatd be fine too. The refs will have to do a waaaaaaay better job, first, though. As is, its kind of necessary for players to dole out punishment. The refs will have to really step it up. I'm not sure they're up for the task.

That said, the staged lets-change-the-momentum fights can go.

Here's an idea... How about just mandating an instigator be called in every fight. Not sure goons would be as willing to fight if they knew the first guy to even suggest the fight would get an extra two mins.

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01-04-2012, 02:30 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by gluvhand View Post
Having your head hit the ice or boards instead of a mat factors in. I also think more hockey concussions are whiplash related than we're lead to believe.
Forgot to mention that, but agreed. If you watch Boogards last fight, you can't say the ice didn't play a part.

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01-04-2012, 02:41 PM
  #29
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redesign the helmets, thats the real issue, not fighting...if fighting is removed, the NHL will take a step back in their progress which has gained much momentum

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01-04-2012, 03:00 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by GregNYR19 View Post
redesign the helmets, thats the real issue, not fighting...if fighting is removed, the NHL will take a step back in their progress which has gained much momentum
There isn't a helmet that can be designed that can stop the brain from sloshing around in your skull from impact or whiplash. Helmets do what they're supposed to. Stopping fractures. Some helmets may help some but there's no way to stop the brain from jarring. And there are many that would say fighting is exactly what stops hockey from being able to go "mainstream".

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01-04-2012, 03:15 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by GregNYR19 View Post
redesign the helmets, thats the real issue, not fighting...if fighting is removed, the NHL will take a step back in their progress which has gained much momentum
Thats not going to do very much. A new designed helmet isn't going to prevent a 225lb man going 25 mph on skates from causing a concussion in his targeted opponent. A helmet is probably around 1 lb. Its not going to absorb the hit effectively. Thats like saying a newly designed car frame will not get crushed when hit by a 3000 lb truck. Its going to get crushed. Maybe we could require enforcers or frequent fighters to wear a special cushion underneath the helmet. Before two enforcers fight, they would take off the helmet but would still have protective padding under neath it that wont hurt the opposition enforcers hands when throwing punches and at the same time protect the enforcer from being hit.

What I think needs to be done is to redesign the padding making it softer and lighter. The players now a days have no fear to hit someone hard. Back in the day, players would hit some one and they themselves would FEEL it. Now that the pads are so bid, they dont feel very much. Elbow pads are hard as rocks. We should make them softer so that the impact isn't as devastating as it is. Technology has kinda bit us in the ass here.

O yea get rid of the instigator and try to get rid of the stage fighting somehow. Suspend any one that fights just after the a new face off. The instigator rule needs to go. Matt Cooke has no fear of cheap shotting someone, because he knows no one can beat his ass without being penalized. Let the players police themselves and the dirty stuff will disappear. Plus the removal of the instigator rule will bring in more fans. Random and spontaneous fights will draw the casual fan.

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01-04-2012, 03:15 PM
  #32
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I'm of the opinion that fighting is so secondary to the concussion issue it barely deserves consideration. The media has shamelessly equated fighting and concussions because they already have a million arguments to make about it to sell their product. Fortunately the people charged with the safety of the game have a much clearer idea of what is causing concussions and are focusing their efforts on re-interpreting legal hits, reducing illegal hits and considering any other changes which could make the game significantly safer.

One other thing however, fighting at junior levels should be completely eradicated not so much because of the concussion issue but because it is completely barbaric. Guys like Boogard who couldn't actually play hockey very well should never have been told at 13 years old that if they fight they might become an NHL star. Removing the fighting from the junior levels would also have a knock on effect of essentially ending the era of the goon, and I don't see any reason why it would stop the tougher players who can actually play the game as well from making it to the NHL.

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01-04-2012, 03:20 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by wr50l View Post
I'm of the opinion that fighting is so secondary to the concussion issue it barely deserves consideration. The media has shamelessly equated fighting and concussions because they already have a million arguments to make about it to sell their product. Fortunately the people charged with the safety of the game have a much clearer idea of what is causing concussions and are focusing their efforts on re-interpreting legal hits, reducing illegal hits and considering any other changes which could make the game significantly safer.

One other thing however, fighting at junior levels should be completely eradicated not so much because of the concussion issue but because it is completely barbaric. Guys like Boogard who couldn't actually play hockey very well should never have been told at 13 years old that if they fight they might become an NHL star. Removing the fighting from the junior levels would also have a knock on effect of essentially ending the era of the goon, and I don't see any reason why it would stop the tougher players who can actually play the game as well from making it to the NHL.
I totally agree. It nullifies the goon totally. Players would have to learn to play a regular shift and produce.

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01-04-2012, 03:23 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by gluvhand View Post
And there are many that would say fighting is exactly what stops hockey from being able to go "mainstream".
Those people would be wrong.

Americans don't mind violence. What we do mind is cold. We generally don't like it, therefore we don't live where it's cold enough to have ice for months at a time. That's what keeps the game from going "mainstream".

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01-04-2012, 03:30 PM
  #35
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Reduce the hardness of the elbow pads.



What could be done to prevent a concussion like this? (Besides not throwing the elbow)

Or is there any way to prevent a concussion under these circumstances?

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01-04-2012, 03:32 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Jabroni1994 View Post
Reduce the hardness of the elbow pads.



What could be done to prevent a concussion like this? (Besides not throwing the elbow)

Or is there any way to prevent a concussion under these circumstances?
Severe suspensions with fines on top of them.

Fine the team heavily.

If players start to get pressured by the team they play for it will end.

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01-04-2012, 03:43 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Vito Andolini View Post
Those people would be wrong.

Americans don't mind violence. What we do mind is cold. We generally don't like it, therefore we don't live where it's cold enough to have ice for months at a time. That's what keeps the game from going "mainstream".
They do mind when it comes to their kid's playing a game.

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01-04-2012, 03:50 PM
  #38
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One thing I'd like to see experimented with would be knuckle pads, like miniature versions of those ones they wear in UFC with the additional feature that they can be worn under hockey gloves. you have to wear them to fight and maybe fighting without them be like an extra 2 minute misconduct (not penalty). also, i would like to see some sort of similar infraction for fighting with a visor so maybe they can make visors that easily attach and detach from the helmet. so i'm interested in keeping fighting but possibly finding ways to make fighting safer. head hits are a bigger concern frankly.

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01-04-2012, 03:53 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by n8 View Post
One thing I'd like to see experimented with would be knuckle pads, like miniature versions of those ones they wear in UFC with the additional feature that they can be worn under hockey gloves. you have to wear them to fight and maybe fighting without them be like an extra 2 minute misconduct (not penalty). also, i would like to see some sort of similar infraction for fighting with a visor so maybe they can make visors that easily attach and detach from the helmet. so i'm interested in keeping fighting but possibly finding ways to make fighting safer. head hits are a bigger concern frankly.
I get what you're saying on the visors but if they detach that easily a puck would surely take them off creating a bigger hazard.

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01-04-2012, 03:56 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by gluvhand View Post
They do mind when it comes to their kid's playing a game.
Is football not violent? It's basically the biggest sport in this country. You see plenty of parents more than happy to let their kids play a sport that leads to many serious injuries & even deaths every year.

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01-04-2012, 04:00 PM
  #41
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I'm of the opinion that fighting is so secondary to the concussion issue it barely deserves consideration.
Agreed. The current concussion issue has nothing to do with the ones received during fights.

The question is how you protect players who are getting injured from hard hits or just dumb luck. Having the helmet securely strapped on would be a start IMO. It can't protect you when your head is floating around inside or it comes off completely.

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01-04-2012, 04:59 PM
  #42
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Is football not violent? It's basically the biggest sport in this country. You see plenty of parents more than happy to let their kids play a sport that leads to many serious injuries & even deaths every year.
In alot of the country football is religion. People see past what they want to. But when a parent sees punching and fighting allowed and glorified in a sport I think they think twice. I don't have a horse in this race. I have a daughter that doesn't play and doesn't want to. I play beer league and am a goalie so I rarely am on either end of fighting. I enjoy seeing a decent brawl with a purpose. I can just see why some people are turned off to the sport because of the fighting. That and the costs associated, early ice times, cold...

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01-04-2012, 05:26 PM
  #43
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I wouldn't kid myself that fighting doesn't lead to injuries on occasion. More concerned however with dirty play--slewfoots, targeting heads esp. from the blindside. There are a bunch of repeat performers of that. The speed of the game--opening everything up after the lockout. All the slowing down techniques of before which are now penalized has been part of the reason for all the head injuries.

Apart from that there are guys like Booggaard who never should have made it. Teams do feel a need to protect their better players though. It's the nature of the game. Trying to regulate all the bad out does not necessarily at the end of the day--leave you with all good. More than likely in this case it will leave you with something a lot more boring. The players and most fans all like the physical nature of the game.

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01-04-2012, 05:53 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by gluvhand View Post
In alot of the country football is religion. People see past what they want to. But when a parent sees punching and fighting allowed and glorified in a sport I think they think twice. I don't have a horse in this race. I have a daughter that doesn't play and doesn't want to. I play beer league and am a goalie so I rarely am on either end of fighting. I enjoy seeing a decent brawl with a purpose. I can just see why some people are turned off to the sport because of the fighting. That and the costs associated, early ice times, cold...
I think you got down to the heart of the issue in the bolded part.

I'm not discounting that some people may be turned off by fighting in hockey...but i just don't think it's a major deterrent to the growth of the game nor does it weight that heavily on a parents mind.

I mean how old are you when your parents first enroll you in a sport? I was around 8 or so. I seriously doubt my parents were even thinking about the possibility of me getting in fist fights 8 years or so down the line if they signed me up for hockey.

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01-04-2012, 06:12 PM
  #45
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Honestly, I think hockey fights are pretty pointless. however they are part of the rules and traditions of the game, so i have no problem with them staying, as many have said, the instigator needs to go.

Certainly agree that the protective gear needs to re-engineered.

IMO, 3 things (other than the equipment) need to happen in order to help reduce concussions:

1 - players need to show some respect to each other. So much of the after the whistle stuff is unnecessary, as are the cheap shots

2 - The head needs to become protected. You hit someone high, you get suspended, and none of these 1-2 game things either. For an 82 game season, the minimum sentence should be 4 games. Games should also be reviewed and suspensions made for head high hits missed during the game. Sounds tough? Too bad. there's no reason (outside of a fight) to hit someone high. You do, you're sitting for a while.

3 - This one is a long term thing as it would need to start at the junior levels, but all players need to be re-taught how to hit. Watching players hit each other now, they explode up at the point of impact, which means that their arms, elbows and sticks are getting up toward head level, their feet are coming off the ice either at the point of impact or just after and they are hitting their opponent at shoulder level meaning they are more likely to go over this creating more concussion problems from hitting the ice.

The hit should go 'through' the body instead of 'up'. At the point of impact the knees should be bending, with the hitters body weight down low. Their elbow should be locked in to the side of their body and all the muscles from their shoulder down braced for impact. Doing this will mean that there is little to no chance of the elbows etc coming up (which means they wont be suspended as per pt2). Instead of hitting the opponent between the chest and the head, you are hitting them between the hip and shoulder.

Unfortunately the NHL wont do any of these, but IMO it would solve a lot of the current problems without removing any of the 'toughness' from the game.

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01-04-2012, 06:52 PM
  #46
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I'll throw some ideas out there.

Bareknuckle boxing is one of the safest contact sports. I think there's only one recorded fatality in over a century.

MMA, which uses very light 4oz gloves, has a surprisingly low concussion rate.

Boxing, which uses heavy 12 to 16oz gloves, has a fairly high concussion rate.

So if you look at other combat sports, fighting with bare fists tends to be much "safer" than fighting with any sort of glove, and concussions are rare (although they tend to be bloodier on average, the damage is temporary). Why would hockey be any different? Volume of fights? Doubtful. There are plenty of low to mid-tier MMA fighters who fight 10-12 times a year (which would be a decent amount for an NHL enforcer). Boxers, on the other hand, only fight 2-6 times a year and they still have higher concussion rates.

It really makes me wonder about how much of the medical issues enforcers have are fighting related, or due to surrounding issues (drugs, stress, etc). Not to mention that unlike the above, a hockey player is on skates and therefore can't plant their feet and get full power behind their punches.

I think concussions are a big problem in NHL, that much is clear, but how much ties back to fighting is a big question mark. I think equipment (oversized & overly hard pads) and increased speed are more to blame.
Where did you get stats on bareknuckle boxing and concussions?

What is the concussion rate in MMA?

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01-04-2012, 07:14 PM
  #47
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I think fighting is a deterrent to injury as much as it causes them.

the problem is "enforcers". Players that want to throw a dirty hit, or absolutely cream someone, right now, should know that there's going to be some reckoning for that play.

Unfortunately too many times this falls to the enforcer, who goes out and fights the other enforcer, and yanno… the message is lost.

Look at NYR Philly a few weeks ago. Prust and Simmonds dropped'em right off the faceoff. Two guys that like to go out and crush, let each other know that there was going to be some payback for any crushing. Later in the same game they went at it again. No enforcers, jumbling the message.

Nothing wrong with that.

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01-04-2012, 10:03 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Vito Andolini View Post
I think you got down to the heart of the issue in the bolded part.

I'm not discounting that some people may be turned off by fighting in hockey...but i just don't think it's a major deterrent to the growth of the game nor does it weight that heavily on a parents mind.

I mean how old are you when your parents first enroll you in a sport? I was around 8 or so. I seriously doubt my parents were even thinking about the possibility of me getting in fist fights 8 years or so down the line if they signed me up for hockey.
Different world now though. My parents didn't have the internet for research and weren't bombarded with info like we are. I can count on one hand how many games my father saw me play because he was working. Alot of the dangers just weren't known. Now, mom hits the internet, sees a headline like yesterday about the kid Jablonski getting paralyzed, game over.

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Old
01-05-2012, 01:18 AM
  #49
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Will preface this by saying that I am relatively new to the sport (I've been watching for about 4 or 5 years now). While I enjoy the pure entertainment value of hockey fighting, I don't see why--tradition aside--it needs to be a necessary part of the game.

1) What other major, respectable sport (other than I guess boxing) allows players to fight each other with basically no major repercussions? 2) Shouldn't a sport be able to stand on it's own merits/excitement, without fighting added to the mix? 3) I don't know the stats on this, but I think it would be ridiculous and embarrassing for someone to obtain any significant injury from a fight.

Once again, it's nothing I'm going to write an angry letter about, but I am bit mystified by the whole dynamic.

ETA: I do agree, though, that the concussion controversy seems to be rather tangential to the fighting issue.

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Old
01-05-2012, 10:50 AM
  #50
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I think a bigger area to look at, if 10 per cent of concussions are fight-related, is what is causing the other 90 per cent.

I imagine the problem with this is that those 90 per cent might be harder to do something about.

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