HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Central Division > Winnipeg Jets
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Winnipeg Jets - Free Agents, Trades, Rumors, Speculation-It all goes here; Part V

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-04-2012, 12:15 PM
  #1
Guerzy
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Guerzy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Country: Canada
Posts: 15,531
vCash: 50
Winnipeg Jets - Free Agents, Trades, Rumors, Speculation-It all goes here; Part V

Continue on here.

__________________
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=43225&dateline=141082  3903
Guerzy is offline  
Old
01-04-2012, 12:22 PM
  #2
Lynk
Registered Bro
 
Lynk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 15,607
vCash: 500
Wouldn't this be part V as the previous thread was part IV?

Lynk is offline  
Old
01-04-2012, 12:23 PM
  #3
Huffer
Registered User
 
Huffer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,463
vCash: 1458
Regarding the Edmonton example, you can point to it and say, "See, they made some aggressive moves and they went to the cup!"

But what if they would have lost in the 1st round?

The 1st in 2006 could have been used on:

Chris Stewart
CLAUDE GIROUX
Patrik Berglund
Nick Foligno
Michal Neuvirth
Nikolai Kulemin

And the second they traded to Boston WAS used to draft

Milan Lucic

I know that I'm cherry picking the best players that COULD have been drafted. But we are also looking at those moves with the hindsight that the team somehow got to the finals. What if they bow out to the Wings in the 1st round? What if they don't even make the playoffs? They made those moves at the deadline, but didn't get into the payoffs until the last week.

How would the fanbase react if they either didn't make the playoffs, or bow out in the 1st round, knowing that they could have drafted Giroux and Lucic instead?

Would the Oilers have gone into the freefall that has lasted for how many years if they would have drafted Giroux and Lucic?

Just things to consider when you decide to roll the dice and spend some of your future for today.

Huffer is offline  
Old
01-04-2012, 12:23 PM
  #4
Gump Hasek
Spleen Merchant
 
Gump Hasek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: 222 Tudor Terrace
Posts: 7,501
vCash: 1472
You closed the previous thread but I wish to respond to this statement by Jet:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jet

Continuing with facts, the reason Detroit did that is because of an exceptional scouting staff, and great patience with projects in their system.

Lots of these beauts were very late round picks, not seconds (like for instance Zetterberg)
Which would be why I initially said this...

Quote:
The difference between being good and being great though is finding that occasional diamond in the rough in rounds two and later. That has been Detroit's strength over the years, and has been the difference maker for them, they find and then develop them.

Gump Hasek is offline  
Old
01-04-2012, 12:25 PM
  #5
Guerzy
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Guerzy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Country: Canada
Posts: 15,531
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynk View Post
Wouldn't this be part V as the previous thread was part IV?
For some reason I thought the last thread was only part 3, but I guess it was part 4 and now we're at the 5th.

Guerzy is offline  
Old
01-04-2012, 12:30 PM
  #6
John Cena*
12x WWE CHAMPION!!!!
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba
Country: United States
Posts: 11,527
vCash: 500
we are not trading picks.

John Cena* is offline  
Old
01-04-2012, 12:31 PM
  #7
Guerzy
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Guerzy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Country: Canada
Posts: 15,531
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huffer View Post
Regarding the Edmonton example, you can point to it and say, "See, they made some aggressive moves and they went to the cup!"

But what if they would have lost in the 1st round?

The 1st in 2006 could have been used on:

Chris Stewart
CLAUDE GIROUX
Patrik Berglund
Nick Foligno
Michal Neuvirth
Nikolai Kulemin

And the second they traded to Boston WAS used to draft

Milan Lucic

I know that I'm cherry picking the best players that COULD have been drafted. But we are also looking at those moves with the hindsight that the team somehow got to the finals. What if they bow out to the Wings in the 1st round? What if they don't even make the playoffs? They made those moves at the deadline, but didn't get into the payoffs until the last week.

How would the fanbase react if they either didn't make the playoffs, or bow out in the 1st round, knowing that they could have drafted Giroux and Lucic instead?

Would the Oilers have gone into the freefall that has lasted for how many years if they would have drafted Giroux and Lucic?

Just things to consider when you decide to roll the dice and spend some of your future for today.

A lot of what ifs, though, and that goes for both ways. I understand your point here, though, definitely. In all honesty, it's a crapshoot.

But, given what we know today, we didn't know back in 2006 or 2007, etc. If I were an Oil fan, as beautiful as Giroux is and how perhaps if the circumstances played themselves out they could have drafted him, or Lucic, or whoever, I don't think many would give up that run to game 7 of the 2006 Stanley Cup Finals.

Perhaps Jet can answer that?

Guerzy is offline  
Old
01-04-2012, 12:37 PM
  #8
Aerial
Registered User
 
Aerial's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,284
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huffer View Post
But we are also looking at those moves with the hindsight that the team somehow got to the finals. What if they bow out to the Wings in the 1st round? What if they don't even make the playoffs?
Yeah, but you can never have much certainty about what's going to happen in the playoffs. And any draft pick *could* become a star someday. So it's not so much about "what if they lost in the first round," because sometimes you're gonna lose, and obviously they knew that was a possibility when they made the moves.

It's more about managing risk versus reward, and determining what risks are too much versus what's the possible reward -- and also, being able to accept what you gave up if it doesn't pan out.

At the end of the day, maybe some people are a little more risk-averse in the hypothetical situation. I'm probably a little more willing to take those risks. And yeah, I'm not sure that there's a right or wrong -- just different calculations of what's the best approach.

Aerial is offline  
Old
01-04-2012, 12:41 PM
  #9
Jet
Moderator
Stand by your man
 
Jet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Whipanegg
Country: Christmas Island
Posts: 17,771
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynk View Post
Wouldn't this be part V as the previous thread was part IV?
Ooooooh, my name is Lynk, I'm so great with Roman Numerals


__________________
The Olympic Line
Jet is offline  
Old
01-04-2012, 12:52 PM
  #10
DinoNeils
Registered User
 
DinoNeils's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Winnipeg
Country: Canada
Posts: 378
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guerzy View Post
A lot of what ifs, though, and that goes for both ways. I understand your point here, though, definitely. In all honesty, it's a crapshoot.

But, given what we know today, we didn't know back in 2006 or 2007, etc. If I were an Oil fan, as beautiful as Giroux is and how perhaps if the circumstances played themselves out they could have drafted him, or Lucic, or whoever, I don't think many would give up that run to game 7 of the 2006 Stanley Cup Finals.

Perhaps Jet can answer that?
Formerly a huge Oiler fan (they are dead to me now).

Because of the cup run, I never even thought to look back on who could have been an Oiler based on those trades. With that said, I looked back at almost every other deal made in the K Lowe era, 90% of the time with absolute disgust. Comrie could have been traded for Perry and a first; they traded down to spots to grab Marc Pouliot when they could have had Parise. The list goes on. My point is, when I was an Oil fan, I looked back on every deal that didn't pan out. The only deals I didn't look back on were the ones that brought Samsonov and Rolly.

That cup run was a magical time; Lucic and Giroux would be real nice to have, but the goal is to win cups.

The Oilers collapse after that run had far more to do with TERRIBLE drafting. From the 94 draft, when they ironically got Smyth, till 2005 when Dubnyk was drafted. The Oil only drafted one other legit NHLer (Hemsky) in the first round. I guess you could consider Boyd Deveroux a NHLer, but still four NHLers drafted in the first round in 11 years is brutal. The Oil also lost some big pieces that off season (Pronger, Peca, Spacek and Samsanov).

Jets aren't losing anybody next year from the roster (maybe Oduya who we can replace from within) and have been drafting far better than those 94 to 2005 Oilers.

Just to reiterate, nobody is saying sell the farm; a late second historically has panned out less than 25% of the time.


Last edited by DinoNeils: 01-04-2012 at 01:03 PM.
DinoNeils is offline  
Old
01-04-2012, 01:11 PM
  #11
Jet
Moderator
Stand by your man
 
Jet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Whipanegg
Country: Christmas Island
Posts: 17,771
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guerzy View Post
A lot of what ifs, though, and that goes for both ways. I understand your point here, though, definitely. In all honesty, it's a crapshoot.

But, given what we know today, we didn't know back in 2006 or 2007, etc. If I were an Oil fan, as beautiful as Giroux is and how perhaps if the circumstances played themselves out they could have drafted him, or Lucic, or whoever, I don't think many would give up that run to game 7 of the 2006 Stanley Cup Finals.

Perhaps Jet can answer that?
My perspective is hindsight is 20/20. Sure, the Oilers could have gotten Lucic or Giroux, but they came within one game of winning the Stanley Cup! To me, HF gets a little ridiculous because people forget the object of the game is to win: in the regular season, in the playoffs, win the friggin' cup.

I don't think for a moment that the Oilers would take those trades back if it meant losing that amazing cup run in '06 (and the revenue they generated)

Besides, if they didn't make those deals, where would they be today? Would Lucic have made them too good to get Hall or RNH?

I think people are overstating the 2nd rounder at any rate.

I guess at the end of the day, I fall somewhere between stockpiling every single pick I can get and continually rebuilding, and being the Calgary Flames

Jet is offline  
Old
01-04-2012, 02:12 PM
  #12
Huffer
Registered User
 
Huffer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,463
vCash: 1458
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jet View Post
My perspective is hindsight is 20/20. Sure, the Oilers could have gotten Lucic or Giroux, but they came within one game of winning the Stanley Cup! To me, HF gets a little ridiculous because people forget the object of the game is to win: in the regular season, in the playoffs, win the friggin' cup.

I don't think for a moment that the Oilers would take those trades back if it meant losing that amazing cup run in '06 (and the revenue they generated)

Besides, if they didn't make those deals, where would they be today? Would Lucic have made them too good to get Hall or RNH?

I think people are overstating the 2nd rounder at any rate.

I guess at the end of the day, I fall somewhere between stockpiling every single pick I can get and continually rebuilding, and being the Calgary Flames
I agree with what you are saying. In hindsight, no one would take back the trades as both Roloson and Samsonov (maybe to a lesser degree) helped take the Oilers to the cup.

My point is that we don't have the knowledge of the future in the months leading up to the trade deadline. If you had a time machine, and told me that if we acquired Selanne for a big chunk of our future that we would win the cup, I would say let's do it!

But we don't know the future, and that's the point. We don't know if the rental will put us over the top, or if the pick will turn into a Giroux , Lucic , or a Jessiman .

But what we do know, is that as a mid cap team we are going to have to build through the draft and develop our own prospects. We won't have the $ to be able to magically fix mistakes through free agency. We also have one of the worst prospect pools in the league. It's combining those two points and deciding to throw caution to the wind and trade away what little we have on a rental that leaves me a little uneasy.

If we had the prospect pool of a team like Florida, Edmonton, Ottawa, or NYI, then it makes it a little easier to swallow.

I'm not even saying I would be against trying to make this team better at the deadline if we are in it. Just pointing out I would have my fingers crossed the whole time hoping it worked out, because we might put ourselves in an even deeper hole if it didn't.

Huffer is offline  
Old
01-04-2012, 02:46 PM
  #13
sully1410
Registered User
 
sully1410's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Turner Valley, Alta.
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,165
vCash: 500
Why the Calgary flames?

sully1410 is offline  
Old
01-04-2012, 02:54 PM
  #14
Jet
Moderator
Stand by your man
 
Jet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Whipanegg
Country: Christmas Island
Posts: 17,771
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by sully1410 View Post
Why the Calgary flames?
The Flames are constantly giving away their draft picks and prospects to acquire aging vets.

Jet is offline  
Old
01-04-2012, 02:55 PM
  #15
DinoNeils
Registered User
 
DinoNeils's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Winnipeg
Country: Canada
Posts: 378
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huffer View Post
I agree with what you are saying. In hindsight, no one would take back the trades as both Roloson and Samsonov (maybe to a lesser degree) helped take the Oilers to the cup.

My point is that we don't have the knowledge of the future in the months leading up to the trade deadline. If you had a time machine, and told me that if we acquired Selanne for a big chunk of our future that we would win the cup, I would say let's do it!

But we don't know the future, and that's the point. We don't know if the rental will put us over the top, or if the pick will turn into a Giroux , Lucic , or a Jessiman .

But what we do know, is that as a mid cap team we are going to have to build through the draft and develop our own prospects. We won't have the $ to be able to magically fix mistakes through free agency. We also have one of the worst prospect pools in the league. It's combining those two points and deciding to throw caution to the wind and trade away what little we have on a rental that leaves me a little uneasy.

If we had the prospect pool of a team like Florida, Edmonton, Ottawa, or NYI, then it makes it a little easier to swallow.

I'm not even saying I would be against trying to make this team better at the deadline if we are in it. Just pointing out I would have my fingers crossed the whole time hoping it worked out, because we might put ourselves in an even deeper hole if it didn't.
I agree with what you are saying; we are going to be a team that depends on strong drafting, undrafted free agent aquisition and development of players to ensure long term success.

I think the big debate really comes down to is how people value assets and player experience.

For me a second rounder and Postma(just an example)< having our young guys watch a future HHOFer go about his trade for four months and the experience of deep playoff push. Lets not forget the extra cash that would be brought in and the impact on making the Jets' culture a winning culture.

With all that said, if we aren't in position to be all but garaunteed a playoff spot come March, this point is moot. If we are a good eight points up on the ninth seed, still in contention for the division and a player like Selanne is available for the right cost come Late Febraury, I do it nine times out of ten (the tenth time I would have gotten the paper work into the NHL too late and had the trade voided).

DinoNeils is offline  
Old
01-04-2012, 03:01 PM
  #16
DinoNeils
Registered User
 
DinoNeils's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Winnipeg
Country: Canada
Posts: 378
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jet View Post
The Flames are constantly giving away their draft picks and prospects to acquire aging vets.
a 36 year old Staios for a third and they didn't even make the playoffs

DinoNeils is offline  
Old
01-04-2012, 03:11 PM
  #17
sully1410
Registered User
 
sully1410's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Turner Valley, Alta.
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,165
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jet View Post
The Flames are constantly giving away their draft picks and prospects to acquire aging vets.
Oh so the Toronto Maple Leafs like five plus years ago lol

sully1410 is offline  
Old
01-04-2012, 03:14 PM
  #18
Jet
Moderator
Stand by your man
 
Jet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Whipanegg
Country: Christmas Island
Posts: 17,771
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by DinoNeils View Post
a 36 year old Staios for a third and they didn't even make the playoffs
The Oilers were guffawing all the way to the bank with that one.

Staios has been utter garbage since the cup run. You think a team that victimized him 8 times a year would have realized that

Jet is offline  
Old
01-04-2012, 03:20 PM
  #19
Huffer
Registered User
 
Huffer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,463
vCash: 1458
Quote:
Originally Posted by DinoNeils View Post
I agree with what you are saying; we are going to be a team that depends on strong drafting, undrafted free agent aquisition and development of players to ensure long term success.

I think the big debate really comes down to is how people value assets and player experience.

For me a second rounder and Postma(just an example)< having our young guys watch a future HHOFer go about his trade for four months and the experience of deep playoff push. Lets not forget the extra cash that would be brought in and the impact on making the Jets' culture a winning culture.

With all that said, if we aren't in position to be all but garaunteed a playoff spot come March, this point is moot. If we are a good eight points up on the ninth seed, still in contention for the division and a player like Selanne is available for the right cost come Late Febraury, I do it nine times out of ten (the tenth time I would have gotten the paper work into the NHL too late and had the trade voided).
Yeah, I hear you too. And I agree with a lot of your points.

Here's an interesting question. The trade deadline this year on February 27. We will have 17 games after this date. (18 if you could the game on the 27th).

So, let's say 36 potential points are up for grabs after the trade deadline. That's a big swing.

In what place do people what to be in (I.E. position, points up on trailers, etc), in order to justify "buyer" type moves, or "seller" type moves.

Huffer is offline  
Old
01-04-2012, 03:26 PM
  #20
Guerzy
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Guerzy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Country: Canada
Posts: 15,531
vCash: 50
So long as we're in the playoff hunt like we are today, I am game for management making a move if they feel it's a good one. If they choose not to make a move and let this team ride this season out together as the guys who have done the job, then I am all for that as well.

I don't have all of the answers, and I won't pretend like I do. All I can say is I trust the management of the Winnipeg Jets and their philosophies and intentions enough to have faith in their decisions.

These guys ran a top notch AHL team for years and know right down to the nitty gritty about development. I feel strongly saying they will not jeopardize this teams future in terms of our assets.

They're going to make mistakes, they're going to miss out on a player here and there, but I feel strongly about putting my trust with this organization that whatever moves they choose to make, whether it be for Selanne at a respectable price or someone else, i'm all in.

I have zero doubts that management will do what's best for this team today as well as the future.

Guerzy is offline  
Old
01-04-2012, 03:30 PM
  #21
ps241
HFBoards Sponsor
 
ps241's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 11,362
vCash: 500
speaking of managing a roster well I went to capgeek and I am really impressed with how a team like Chicago has tied up their young talent long term and remains a team that has the 17th highest payroll. Also look at Detroit with the 16th highest payroll and both have over $5 million left in cap space. conversely teams like Buffalo, Montreal, Toronto, and Calgary all spend to the limit in most cases......This just shows how big a roll the GM's play in this process. Take Chicago again they have Keith and Seabrook tied up long term (I don't love long term deals but there are exceptions) for $5.5 and $5.8 million respectfully and LA spends $7 million a year for Doughty (Is he really worth 20% more than Keith)? Gomez getting paid $7 million in Montreal and Toews and Kane both getting $6.3 million a year in Chicago and are they both locked up until 2014-15?

interesting sport and fun to get more engaged in the business side of it now that we have a team back

ps241 is offline  
Old
01-04-2012, 03:41 PM
  #22
Huffer
Registered User
 
Huffer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,463
vCash: 1458
Quote:
Originally Posted by ps241 View Post
speaking of managing a roster well I went to capgeek and I am really impressed with how a team like Chicago has tied up their young talent long term and remains a team that has the 17th highest payroll. Also look at Detroit with the 16th highest payroll and both have over $5 million left in cap space. conversely teams like Buffalo, Montreal, Toronto, and Calgary all spend to the limit in most cases......This just shows how big a roll the GM's play in this process. Take Chicago again they have Keith and Seabrook tied up long term (I don't love long term deals but there are exceptions) for $5.5 and $5.8 million respectfully and LA spends $7 million a year for Doughty (Is he really worth 20% more than Keith)? Gomez getting paid $7 million in Montreal and Toews and Kane both getting $6.3 million a year in Chicago and are they both locked up until 2014-15?

interesting sport and fun to get more engaged in the business side of it now that we have a team back
I love talking about the business side as well. Contracts, UFA's etc.

In order for Chicago and Detroit to do what they did, they needed to make a leap of faith with their superstars. The leap was that they would remain superstars after getting the $. It would seem easy to do that with guys like Towes, Kane, and Datsuyk now, but they had to do it early.

Generally, I'm leery of long term deals. However, for a team like ours, you could probably make the case that every once in a while it might make sense to give a guy a longer term deal so you can get him at an average price lower than if he went on the market and got a shorter deal.

Huffer is offline  
Old
01-04-2012, 03:55 PM
  #23
razorsedge
West Town Sports
 
razorsedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Fort Sask, Alberta
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,715
vCash: 500
I'm a draft pick horder in fantasy pools, so I don't like the idea of selling draft picks to win now. There is something about building a winning team through scouting and drafting makes it so much more rewarding.

razorsedge is offline  
Old
01-04-2012, 04:02 PM
  #24
sully1410
Registered User
 
sully1410's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Turner Valley, Alta.
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,165
vCash: 500
I think Gomez is a waste of money.

sully1410 is offline  
Old
01-04-2012, 05:24 PM
  #25
sdbullet
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: San Diego
Posts: 1,164
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to sdbullet
What kind of return would the jets expect for Chris Thorburn?

sdbullet is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:54 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.