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2011-12 All Purpose Kings Trade Rumors and Proposals Thread II

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Old
01-04-2012, 10:43 PM
  #201
johnjm22
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@TSNBobMcKenzie: As per @helenenothelen, ANA GM says Selanne and Koivu are only two untouchables on Ducks. Which means he'll listen on Getzlaf, Perry, Ryan.
Things could get interesting in Anaheim.

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01-04-2012, 10:46 PM
  #202
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JJ for Ryan. Ya we would have to add a bit and we are rivals but just do it. I would like Vishnovsky back to help with the PP and they can have Penner for a little bit of deja vu. Ya ya, I can dream

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01-04-2012, 10:49 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Jaygokings View Post
Bingo.


Fan of Buffalo myself. No way Vanek gets moved.

There is a long list of guys in front of he and Pominville that should get the axe.

Also...interesting stuff from Helene Elliot regarding ducks

Bob Murray: "says he has two untouchables--Teemu Selanne and Saku Koivu--but anyone else is in play"
Seriously, koivu? Oh wow, sounds like murray lost his mind.

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01-04-2012, 10:50 PM
  #204
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Just had chat with Ducks GM Bob Murray. Says he has two untouchables--Teemu Selanne and Saku Koivu--but anyone else is in play. Says he's not rebuilding and seeking draft picks. If he trades a core player, it would be for another core-type player. Hasn't conceded this season

Murray said he knows it will be tough to make playoffs this season but wants to see team put something together and make a run. Murray also said that if core players want to stay w/ Ducks they have to play that way...and as i type that, Corey Perry scores.

To clarify/amplify Bob Murray saying Selanne/Koivu untouchable: both have no movement clauses. If Selanne were to ask for trade, I can't see Murray standing in the way. But Murray's intention is for Selanne to retire a Duck, as Murray has said before.

More Bob Murray, saying he's not looking to rebuild or trade for draft picks: "I still believe we have some core players. Now, whether we have to change a few core players, so be it. They’re deciding who’s staying and who’s not staying at this point."

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01-04-2012, 10:59 PM
  #205
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Sounds more like he is pandering to the media trying to motivate his players. Lateral moves would make little sense and his top 3 players are pretty hard to match around the league when it comes to movable talent. He would just screw up the chemistry of his team and will probably get less production from his new talent he acquires. Unless he is swapping Ryan or Getzlaf for Shea Weber or someone, of the like, it makes no sense. Even then, Weber is unsigned and I wouldn't risk losing that kind of talent for nothing.

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01-04-2012, 11:02 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Cruel11 View Post
Seriously, koivu? Oh wow, sounds like murray lost his mind.
I think it more has to do because of his ntc or whatever.

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01-04-2012, 11:57 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Telos View Post
Sounds more like he is pandering to the media trying to motivate his players. Lateral moves would make little sense and his top 3 players are pretty hard to match around the league when it comes to movable talent. He would just screw up the chemistry of his team and will probably get less production from his new talent he acquires. Unless he is swapping Ryan or Getzlaf for Shea Weber or someone, of the like, it makes no sense. Even then, Weber is unsigned and I wouldn't risk losing that kind of talent for nothing.
I don't know, what chemistry is there to screw up at this point? It seems like they're disintegrating right now, and even a lateral move talent-wise could help change the culture of the team. Sorry for the Lombardi term there, but I couldn't think of another way to describe it.

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01-05-2012, 01:29 AM
  #208
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Originally Posted by agentfouser View Post
I don't know, what chemistry is there to screw up at this point? It seems like they're disintegrating right now, and even a lateral move talent-wise could help change the culture of the team. Sorry for the Lombardi term there, but I couldn't think of another way to describe it.
The question is whats a lateral move? Staal for Getz or Perry (which money wise kills the Ducks)? If your not going star for star, your going quantity for quality and trading a Star you almost always end up on the losing side. Especially if the star is still relatively young.

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01-05-2012, 03:14 AM
  #209
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Originally Posted by Telos View Post
Sounds more like he is pandering to the media trying to motivate his players.
That's what I took from it.

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01-05-2012, 08:59 AM
  #210
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[QUOTE=Telos;41899221]
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Bringing up Penner in a discussion about Nash and Kovalchuk is mind boggling. It is no surprise that he ended up signing and staying with the team that traded for him. What were his odds of randomly picking NJ and it all working out the same way if they hadn't traded for him? The answer is unknowable, as is every single piece of nonsense we are discussing, but I'd doubt that NJ would have made the same offer and things would have worked out the same way if they hadn't already paid for him.
No it's not, not at all, considering your comment that I was responding too. You wanted to bring in talent, Penner was that. Really worked well huh? We have issues that go beyond goalscoring and I don't care who you bring in, they are going to have issues scoring. Add to that a cap hit of $7.8 million and one dimensional play... no thanks.

And yes, Kovalchuk going to NJ likely very much influence his resigning there. No doubt. But it was far from a guarantee that the same would have happened if we had traded Simmonds or whatever for him to come here. And as I said, I'd rather deal Simmonds in a package to get Richards than Kovalchuk, so DL made the right call it would seem.

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We need a top goal scorer. Eriksson is not a top goal scorer. We need a Nash, Kovalchuk, Hossa, Parise, Stamkos, etc... Someone who is going to guarantee offense. It is not foolish to dismiss a playmaker who scored 36 when his team got hot one year, over a habitual 30+ talent.
How are seasons of 36, 29, 27 and a current pace of 30 counted as one year? He is a notch below Nash, I agree, but he's hardly a pure playmaker. As I stated earlier his goals per game pace since 2008 shows over a full season he'd get 31 goals, compared to 36 for Nash. So yeah, that would be very foolish to dismiss him.

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In the end, I don't want either. I don't even want Iginla. I wouldn't cry if we got any of them, but none are worthwhile for the team. I am just rolling my eyes are the stigmas HFBoards creates for itself. It is the exact same as if you walked into a proposal thread about Doughty and every single poster responds with "overrated" and that they would never consider it. Let's ask the GM's if they would want Doughty on their team...
Once again, stop putting words in peoples mouths. No one is saying we wouldn't want Nash on our team. We are saying we wouldn't want Nash at the price it would take to get him, coupled with his cap hit, diminishing offensive output and one dimensional play. There are likely 400+ players in this league I'd like to have on this team for various reasons, but you have to factor all of above into each, which is why most of us can narrow a list for a particular need (in this case a goalscorer) down to a few names. For me, Nash isn't on that list for the above noted reasons. If you don't like that, tough, but don't insinuate I'm suggesting I, fans or GM's wouldn't hold value to Nash. It's just not anywhere near the value you or the COlumbus Blue Jackets would hold to him or what it would take to acquire him.

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Originally Posted by Eshutz Escors View Post
Mattias Norstrom says hi.
2006-2007 and our near dead last team says hi right back. You think we would have dealt Norstrom at all if we weren't out of the playoffs and he was a rental who was retiring? Big difference between him and Eriksson not to mention the current playoff potential for both LA and Dallas.

That said, as Sydor wisely noted, Dallas isn't in our division/conference/whatever next year, so who knows.

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Originally Posted by hawkeyexp View Post
Philly said the exact same thing about Carter and Richards
Buffalo isn't owned by Ed Snider. That had a huge impact if I recall correctly.

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Originally Posted by kingsfan28 View Post
Could you ever see a big Kings-Ducks trade?
Nope, not of a young star for young star (Ryan/Johnson for example). The best would be a guy like Teemu as a rental, and even then I'd be surprised.

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Old
01-05-2012, 10:38 AM
  #211
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Originally Posted by johnjm22 View Post
Things could get interesting in Anaheim.
Tough to get equal value for any of those 3 guys. Ryan and Getzlaf seem to put it on cruise control way too much but I think the problem is their bottom 6 sucks and their defense sucks. Would love to see Bobby Ryan in LA but if any of those guys are traded I have to think it will be to an Eastern Conference team. Trading Johnson for Ryan doesn't help the Ducks one bit.

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01-05-2012, 11:21 AM
  #212
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Originally Posted by Tikkanen View Post
Tough to get equal value for any of those 3 guys. Ryan and Getzlaf seem to put it on cruise control way too much but I think the problem is their bottom 6 sucks and their defense sucks. Would love to see Bobby Ryan in LA but if any of those guys are traded I have to think it will be to an Eastern Conference team. Trading Johnson for Ryan doesn't help the Ducks one bit.
That seems to be the general consensus, but I think goaltending has been their biggest issue. Hiller hasn't been the same since his bout with vertigo.

You're not going to win much when your starting goaltender has .898 SV%.

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01-05-2012, 11:36 AM
  #213
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Originally Posted by johnjm22 View Post
That seems to be the general consensus, but I think goaltending has been their biggest issue. Hiller hasn't been the same since his bout with vertigo.

You're not going to win much when your starting goaltender has .898 SV%.
While I totally agree, you can look to Philly for a team who can win with a goalie sporting a .898 save %. Everyone predicted the Ducks to be high in the standings on the main boards just by reputation and their top three. While the top 3 are amazing players, they don't have much after that in terms of scoring (except for Teemu, but he can't do it all), their D sucks (Fowler is great, but too young to carry the whole backend) and as mentioned, Hiller is terrible this year. I've watched a couple of Ducks games this year, and Hiller has given up goals that deflate the team, sure, but the top three (Perry, Getzlaf, Ryan) are just floating. I thought they would start clicking again once the coaching change, but they look just as uninterested as they did before. Last year the Ducks were just as bad, but Hiller was playing out of his mind before he got hurt/sick, and then weirdly, Emery and the other handful of goalies they brought in played pretty good for them. To be honest, I think they're a mess just about everywhere!

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01-05-2012, 11:56 AM
  #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
No it's not, not at all, considering your comment that I was responding too. You wanted to bring in talent, Penner was that. Really worked well huh? We have issues that go beyond goalscoring and I don't care who you bring in, they are going to have issues scoring. Add to that a cap hit of $7.8 million and one dimensional play... no thanks.
That's ridiculous. So we shouldn't acquire any more players because you believe that our problems go beyond the fact that we are last in the NHL in goal scoring (but up the charts in most everything else), therefore trading for high end goal scorers should be disregarded? Kovalchuk is a one dimensional forward and we still heavily pursued him. I am arguing that a one dimensional sniper is exactly who we need. You don't need every single person to backcheck behind the net, it is O.K. to have a selfish guy that is going to put goals in the net and cheat his advantages against the opposing team. The last time we had one, he was more successful than any goal scorer since. Palffy was very one dimensional. I remember him just circling out in the neutral zone waiting for the long bomb pass a lot of the time. It worked, he would walk away with a breakaway virtually every game. We need someone who is going to guarantee scoring chances and statistically give us an edge that goals scored will probably be in our favor.

Bringing up Penner as like a warning of what's to come for talents like Kovalchuk and Nash is very laughable. Just because Penner didn't work out doesn't mean we should never make another trade for a winger again, especially for one astronomically ahead of a player like Penner.

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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
And yes, Kovalchuk going to NJ likely very much influence his resigning there. No doubt. But it was far from a guarantee that the same would have happened if we had traded Simmonds or whatever for him to come here. And as I said, I'd rather deal Simmonds in a package to get Richards than Kovalchuk, so DL made the right call it would seem.
Trading Simmonds for Kovalchuk does not mean that we would not have acquired Richards later. It merely means that we would have drastically increased our chances of having both... Imagine if we had a $6 million Kovalchuk on our team about now on top of everything else...

Quote:
Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
How are seasons of 36, 29, 27 and a current pace of 30 counted as one year? He is a notch below Nash, I agree, but he's hardly a pure playmaker. As I stated earlier his goals per game pace since 2008 shows over a full season he'd get 31 goals, compared to 36 for Nash. So yeah, that would be very foolish to dismiss him.
It's very simple. Stats aside, if you were offered either player, I would argue that you would have to go for Nash. His skillset is exactly what we need and we can afford him. We need a pure goal scorer. Who cares about stats, they are on different teams with different systems. You have to look at the player and Nash has the clear cut edge and is the best goal scoring talent. The money fits quite well, just because he is overpayed doesn't mean he can't be vital to our team or useful. Sometimes you are going to have to overpay, see Doughty.

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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
Once again, stop putting words in peoples mouths. No one is saying we wouldn't want Nash on our team. We are saying we wouldn't want Nash at the price it would take to get him, coupled with his cap hit, diminishing offensive output and one dimensional play. There are likely 400+ players in this league I'd like to have on this team for various reasons, but you have to factor all of above into each, which is why most of us can narrow a list for a particular need (in this case a goalscorer) down to a few names. For me, Nash isn't on that list for the above noted reasons. If you don't like that, tough, but don't insinuate I'm suggesting I, fans or GM's wouldn't hold value to Nash. It's just not anywhere near the value you or the COlumbus Blue Jackets would hold to him or what it would take to acquire him.
That went over your head. Because that is what I am arguing against, and the words are clearly in your mouth (or hands... Or keyboard... Whatever.). Nash isn't high on my list either, but the fact of the matter is if we popped up and said "Doughty is available", there would be plenty of interest around the league despite his cap hit, the price it would take to get him, his diminished everything output, and questionable play. It is the same as if Columbus made Nash available. That's because the guy is only overpaid by a million dollars and is one of the best power forwards in the game. Bobby Ryan said a couple weeks ago that he is the best power forward in the game. He has 40 goal capability, is dominant in the offensive zone, and creates massive space for his teammates around him. Nobody is going to rationally sit there and say "pfft... He's overrated." and walk away, as what I was arguing about originally this whole time.

He is a leader that guarantees goals. I would be far more concerned over a player like Eriksson coming to this team and putting up goal than a player like Nash. Nash is a guy that doesn't require a supporting cast to do it.

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01-05-2012, 12:23 PM
  #215
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How about Carter, instead of Nash. Great contract for the points he put up, could we prod him over to the general direction of the left wing?

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01-05-2012, 12:31 PM
  #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DontgoZiggy View Post
How about Carter, instead of Nash. Great contract for the points he put up, could we prod him over to the general direction of the left wing?
I'd prefer him, yes.

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01-05-2012, 12:31 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by DontgoZiggy View Post
How about Carter, instead of Nash. Great contract for the points he put up, could we prod him over to the general direction of the left wing?
Instead of Columbus trading Nash or Carter the NHL should just move them to Quebec. It aint happening in Columbus, probably never will.

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01-05-2012, 12:35 PM
  #218
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Originally Posted by Telos View Post
I'd prefer him, yes.
I wonder what the cost would be,

Im guessing Lokti, Voynov and a 1st wouldn't get it done.

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01-05-2012, 12:36 PM
  #219
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Carter? So we have eleventy centers? Can't we leave M. Richards alone so he can bond with this group of players?

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01-05-2012, 12:39 PM
  #220
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Carter? So we have eleventy centers? Can't we leave M. Richards alone so he can bond with this group of players?
I don't care if Richards has a bromance with Carter, I care that Carter has a pedigree of potting goals, a very good contract and is an established NHLer. My only worry would be if he could put it together on the Kings top line wing instead of center.

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01-05-2012, 12:41 PM
  #221
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I've been wanting Carter awhile. My only question is, do we trade JJ or VV as the main piece of the trade?

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01-05-2012, 12:50 PM
  #222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tikkanen View Post
Instead of Columbus trading Nash or Carter the NHL should just move them to Quebec. It aint happening in Columbus, probably never will.
It's about that time.

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Originally Posted by DontgoZiggy View Post
I wonder what the cost would be,

Im guessing Lokti, Voynov and a 1st wouldn't get it done.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RH63 View Post
I've been wanting Carter awhile. My only question is, do we trade JJ or VV as the main piece of the trade?
I would imagine Johnson + Stoll + 1st would be a starting point, but it would probably get slightly more expensive through negotiations. Remember, they gave up Voracek (7th overall), Couturier (8th overall), and a 3rd round pick to get him.

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01-05-2012, 12:53 PM
  #223
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[QUOTE=Telos;41946231]
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That's ridiculous. So we shouldn't acquire any more players because you believe that our problems go beyond the fact that we are last in the NHL in goal scoring (but up the charts in most everything else), therefore trading for high end goal scorers should be disregarded?
No. I'm saying we have issues that are stopping us from scoring. What, i don't know, but when the entire team is slumping and we are dead lat in shooting percentage, there's an issue. If it's the system, then what in the world makes you think bringing someone in now will suddenly solve that? Do you think Nash will parachute in here and suddenly score like a mad man, even while everyone else can't seem to hit the broad side of a barn? We have six players who have scored 30 or more goals in a season in this league, some multiple times. we have a few others who have scored 20 in a season like Stoll and Hunter. I'm not saying all those guys should reach those levels again, but currently only three are on pace to score 20 goals, and only RIchards is on pace to break 25. That's a huge issue which goes well beyond just bringing someone in here. Not to mention the cost of a Nash would likely see us ship out a piece of our offense (Voinov, Brown, Johnson, etc) limiting any benefit he will bring.

Quote:
Kovalchuk is a one dimensional forward and we still heavily pursued him. I am arguing that a one dimensional sniper is exactly who we need. You don't need every single person to backcheck behind the net, it is O.K. to have a selfish guy that is going to put goals in the net and cheat his advantages against the opposing team.
I agree. But there is a big difference between signing one and trading significant pieces of your team for one. And Nash's cap hit is well above Kovalchuk's.

Quote:
The last time we had one, he was more successful than any goal scorer since. Palffy was very one dimensional. I remember him just circling out in the neutral zone waiting for the long bomb pass a lot of the time. It worked, he would walk away with a breakaway virtually every game. We need someone who is going to guarantee scoring chances and statistically give us an edge that goals scored will probably be in our favor.
And just what have you seen in the TM and DS days to suggest there is even a remote chance of either allowing anyone to play like that now? DS doesn't let his guys go roaming around like that, they'll have to adhere to the system, just like Iginla did. Which brings us back to the issue at hand, that is this team needs to figure out how to score in the system or it won't make a difference at all who we bring in here.

Quote:
Bringing up Penner as like a warning of what's to come for talents like Kovalchuk and Nash is very laughable. Just because Penner didn't work out doesn't mean we should never make another trade for a winger again, especially for one astronomically ahead of a player like Penner.
Once again, the system is the issue. I was opposed to the Penner deal at the time, but even I'll admit I never thought he'd be this bad. The guy didn't forget how to score goals when he crossed the border. He may not work for it, but he's working harder here this year than he did in Edmonton and where did he produce more? Once again, the system is flawed. Wait until DS installs whatever changes he wants to make and see if the guys will start to come around. If they do, start discussing a trade. If not, then obviously it's more than just a talent issue and adding Nash or whoever won't matter.


Quote:
Trading Simmonds for Kovalchuk does not mean that we would not have acquired Richards later. It merely means that we would have drastically increased our chances of having both... Imagine if we had a $6 million Kovalchuk on our team about now on top of everything else...
No it doesn't. That pure speculation and you know it. How do you know Philly would have accepted a different player, or that DL would have been willing to give up whoever Philly wanted in his place? Not to mention I'm not sure how you fit Kovalchuk and Richards onto this team from the start of the season. We were only about a Million below the cap IIRC at the start of the season, how are you adjusting this team to fit Kovalchuk in and still keeping Richards?


Quote:
It's very simple. Stats aside, if you were offered either player, I would argue that you would have to go for Nash. His skillset is exactly what we need and we can afford him. We need a pure goal scorer. Who cares about stats, they are on different teams with different systems. You have to look at the player and Nash has the clear cut edge and is the best goal scoring talent. The money fits quite well, just because he is overpayed doesn't mean he can't be vital to our team or useful. Sometimes you are going to have to overpay, see Doughty.
Stats AND cap hit aside, I'd go with Nash. But when you factor that cap in, I'll easily take Eriksson. And yes, you should care about stats. Everyone else in the league does.

Btw, the money doesn't fit well. It might fit next year, but that's a might. We still have to add in Quick's new contract extension, and at some point guys like Voinov are going to want a raise. Mitchell could be gone, Bernier as well, and we have to replace them, not to mention no one is suggestion the cap is going to go up at all. Add in a CBA extension coming, and it could be tight. You have to look at these things. A mod should know this stuff.


Quote:
That went over your head. Because that is what I am arguing against, and the words are clearly in your mouth (or hands... Or keyboard... Whatever.). Nash isn't high on my list either, but the fact of the matter is if we popped up and said "Doughty is available", there would be plenty of interest around the league despite his cap hit, the price it would take to get him, his diminished everything output, and questionable play. It is the same as if Columbus made Nash available. That's because the guy is only overpaid by a million dollars and is one of the best power forwards in the game. Bobby Ryan said a couple weeks ago that he is the best power forward in the game. He has 40 goal capability, is dominant in the offensive zone, and creates massive space for his teammates around him. Nobody is going to rationally sit there and say "pfft... He's overrated." and walk away, as what I was arguing about originally this whole time.
Why do you think people say he's overrated? Because he doesn't produce to what he's expected. Of course there will be interest. They'd be interest from all 29 other teams in Penner for that matter. But Penner is overrated because his production and cap hit are way out of line. Same goes for Nash. Being overrated is not the same as having no interest.

Quote:
He is a leader that guarantees goals. I would be far more concerned over a player like Eriksson coming to this team and putting up goal than a player like Nash. Nash is a guy that doesn't require a supporting cast to do it.
So where's the guarantee this year? He finally does have a supporting cast and he's having one of his worst years, not to mention the fact this is likely to be the third straight year his goal total has declined. That's your idea of a guarantee?

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01-05-2012, 12:57 PM
  #224
The Black1963
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Originally Posted by Telos View Post
I would imagine Johnson + Stoll + 1st would be a starting point, but it would probably get slightly more expensive through negotiations. Remember, they gave up Voracek (7th overall), Couturier (8th overall), and a 3rd round pick to get him.
We're not far apart. I was thinking JJ + Lokti or 1st should get it done.

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01-05-2012, 12:58 PM
  #225
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Boost bottom 6 before you trade for a top 6 player.

Nuff said.


Instead of blowing 6-7-8 mil on a top 6. We should help out a bottom 6 that has struggled all year. and Bring in 2 or 3 2-3-4 mil players that actually do something.

That's why I said Stafford would be a great fixture on our 3rd. Young, averages about 40-50 points a season. 4 mil. You toss em Stoll or Johnson for Stafford + and we just double the scoring of our bottom 6 in one trade practically.

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