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1/5 Wingells recalled; White to IR

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Old
01-05-2012, 05:40 PM
  #26
Led Zappa
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Mitchell is the problem, not Zeus.

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01-05-2012, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Led Zappa View Post
Mitchell is the problem, not Zeus.
This. Mitchell has been underwhelming.
He's being paid $1.3M to do squat

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01-05-2012, 05:56 PM
  #28
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This. Mitchell has been underwhelming.
He's being paid $1.3M to do squat
Handzus is being paid nearly twice as much to do just as little. Mitchell has been bad too but it's simply inexcusable for Handzus to be consistently losing the possession battle while lining up against some of the worst players in the league at even strength every night.

It's not all Handzus' fault either. He's being used in a role that he hasn't played for years, if ever (I don't remember how he was used on the Blues or Coyotes). Unless Doug Wilson planned to convince McLellan to adopt the Vancouver model of line-matching, it was an incredibly stupid signing. That's money that could have been much more wisely spent on, say, Wellwood and Lee Stempniak. That gives you a third line that can drive possession in soft minutes and generate offense much more effectively than the current hodgepodge of players. They'd also be off the books in one year instead of two.

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01-05-2012, 06:16 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les Wynan View Post
Handzus is being paid nearly twice as much to do just as little. Mitchell has been bad too but it's simply inexcusable for Handzus to be consistently losing the possession battle while lining up against some of the worst players in the league at even strength every night.

It's not all Handzus' fault either. He's being used in a role that he hasn't played for years, if ever (I don't remember how he was used on the Blues or Coyotes). Unless Doug Wilson planned to convince McLellan to adopt the Vancouver model of line-matching, it was an incredibly stupid signing. That's money that could have been much more wisely spent on, say, Wellwood and Lee Stempniak. That gives you a third line that can drive possession in soft minutes and generate offense much more effectively than the current hodgepodge of players. They'd also be off the books in one year instead of two.
Yeah... not a big fan of the Zeus signing - 2.5 mil + NMC for 2 years? Owe... I still do lineup drawups that would make me rather have Zeus out of here. I'd love to have Nielsen as our 3C...

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01-05-2012, 06:18 PM
  #30
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Yeah... not a big fan of the Zeus signing - 2.5 mil + NMC for 2 years? Owe... I still do lineup drawups that would make me rather have Zeus out of here. I'd love to have Nielsen as our 3C...
Nielsen would be a fantastic pickup. A McGinn/Nielsen/Stempniak third line would put the Sharks in much better shape (doesn't have to be Stempniak, I just can't think of anyone else right now).

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01-05-2012, 06:21 PM
  #31
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Nielsen would be a fantastic pickup. A McGinn/Nielsen/Stempniak third line would put the Sharks in much better shape (doesn't have to be Stempniak, I just can't think of anyone else right now).
If we had McGinn + Nielsen, I'd even go with Samuelson. With Zeus - no way - too slow.

Who else?

Are we talking this or next year

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01-05-2012, 06:32 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les Wynan View Post
Handzus is being paid nearly twice as much to do just as little.
Actually, Handzus has double the points and is 53% on faceoffs. Zeus has been fine.

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01-05-2012, 06:32 PM
  #33
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Zeus is improving McGinn.

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01-05-2012, 06:38 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by SpinTheBlackCircle View Post
Actually, Handzus has double the points and is 53% on faceoffs. Zeus has been fine.
11 of his 12 assists are Primary as well.

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01-05-2012, 06:44 PM
  #35
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I think half of McGinn's goals is directly off a nice feed from Handzus. He's on pace for 33 points which is not terrible for a 3rd liner. Remember that he played top six in LA and now he's exclusively on the third line.

The key is to upgrade from Mitchell to a top six tweener. Then they could even put the top six tweener in the top six and roll with McGinn, Handzus, and Havlat for the third line like they did before Havlat got hurt. Mitchell kills any line he's on.

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01-05-2012, 07:12 PM
  #36
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Zeus is improving McGinn.
Came here to say exactly this. True, who knows if this is simply a year in which McGinn would've blossomed regardless, but that's unlikely. Handzus is good for Ginner. And if having him play mediocre but making his young linemate do what we'd hoped he could do is the tradeoff, then it should be a no-brainer to keep him.

As others have also said, Mitchell is the issue here. I love the guy as a person and wish he could tap into the goldmine of potential he has, but he's just not cutting it, and that's a problem that desperately needs to be addressed.

I wouldn't say he's a total dud given that for all we know he could prosper with another team, and as such I think he has a good amount of trade value. We just have to have faith that DW will pull his magician act again.


/optimism

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01-05-2012, 07:15 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by SpinTheBlackCircle View Post
Actually, Handzus has double the points and is 53% on faceoffs. Zeus has been fine.
So point totals are all that matter? When Handzus has been on the ice this season, the Sharks have been outshot 441-344 (including missed and blocked shots, for and against) meaning he's spent a disproportionate percentage of his shifts in his own zone. That would be somewhat acceptable if he were lining up against Henrik Sedin and Pavel Datsyuk and Ryan Getzlaf every night but he's not. He's playing against scrubs and is being dominated territorially, especially when you consider the fact that he's one of just 3 Sharks to have been outshot this year (the others being Demers, who has sucked, and Douglas Murray, who's excusable since he was playing the toughest minutes on the team before his injury).

Those shots against will turn into minuses soon enough. Niemi and Greiss have posted a 0.946 SV% at even strength behind Handzus this season. Only four players in the entire NHL sustained an on-ice SV% that high by the end of last year (all fourth liners who exclusively played against other fourth liners) and even if Handzus is able to get that lucky he's costing the team by losing the possession battle so sorely -- 52% of his shifts have ended in the defensive zone, forcing Thornton and Couture to begin their shifts there more often which is an obvious and significant disadvantage.

It's highly unlikely a halfway decent replacement for Handzus playing the same role would get dominated to such an extent. Wellwood was phenomenal in that role last season and he's hardly an elite player. Obviously Handzus isn't the only guy on the ice at even strength but it's telling that McGinn and Mitchell have been significantly better possession-wise when they've been split from Handzus (as I alluded to earlier, neither has been outshot at even strength) while Handzus has been considerably worse. In an ideal world, Handzus and Mitchell are both gone but Handzus has undoubtedly been worse this season, especially when you take into consideration his terrible penalty killing.

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01-05-2012, 07:24 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Les Wynan View Post
So point totals are all that matter? When Handzus has been on the ice this season, the Sharks have been outshot 441-344 (including missed and blocked shots, for and against) meaning he's spent a disproportionate percentage of his shifts in his own zone. That would be somewhat acceptable if he were lining up against Henrik Sedin and Pavel Datsyuk and Ryan Getzlaf every night but he's not. He's playing against scrubs and is being dominated territorially, especially when you consider the fact that he's one of just 3 Sharks to have been outshot this year (the others being Demers, who has sucked, and Douglas Murray, who's excusable since he was playing the toughest minutes on the team before his injury).

Those shots against will turn into minuses soon enough. Niemi and Greiss have posted a 0.946 SV% at even strength behind Handzus this season. Only four players in the entire NHL sustained an on-ice SV% that high by the end of last year (all fourth liners who exclusively played against other fourth liners) and even if Handzus is able to get that lucky he's costing the team by losing the possession battle so sorely -- 52% of his shifts have ended in the defensive zone, forcing Thornton and Couture to begin their shifts there more often which is an obvious and significant disadvantage.

It's highly unlikely a halfway decent replacement for Handzus playing the same role would get dominated to such an extent. Wellwood was phenomenal in that role last season and he's hardly an elite player. Obviously Handzus isn't the only guy on the ice at even strength but it's telling that McGinn and Mitchell have been significantly better possession-wise when they've been split from Handzus (as I alluded to earlier, neither has been outshot at even strength) while Handzus has been considerably worse. In an ideal world, Handzus and Mitchell are both gone but Handzus has undoubtedly been worse this season, especially when you take into consideration his terrible penalty killing.
Do you think Mitchell's stats are inflated playing on the 1st line occasionally?

In any case, Handzus may be an issue, too but the reality is with his 2-year deal and an NMC, we're stuck with him so Mitchell is the player to be replaced. Then we'll see what happens.

I do agree if we could get Nielsen and Stempniak, that'd be solid. NO idea why DW didn't make a play for Stempniak this offseason. Just like Higgins the offseason before, he would have been cheap and a solid addition to the 3rd line.

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01-05-2012, 07:30 PM
  #39
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Do you think Mitchell's stats are inflated playing on the 1st line occasionally?

In any case, Handzus may be an issue, too but the reality is with his 2-year deal and an NMC, we're stuck with him so Mitchell is the player to be replaced. Then we'll see what happens.

I do agree if we could get Nielsen and Stempniak, that'd be solid. NO idea why DW didn't make a play for Stempniak this offseason. Just like Higgins the offseason before, he would have been cheap and a solid addition to the 3rd line.
Good question on Mitchell. I think that's definitely been the case as when he's been split from Handzus he's played with Thornton/Pavelski mostly but in those instances Handzus usually saw time with either Havlat or Marleau. In any case, Handzus just hasn't been doing the heavy lifting defensively (i.e. going up against top lines or even second lines on a regular basis) this season regardless of who he's played with and yet has still been completely dominated.

Stempniak would definitely be a smart, under-the-radar, buy low move similar to the Canucks picking up Higgins last season or the Hawks getting Frolik for scraps. I doubt the Flames would want much for him and seriously doubt he's in their future plans at all.

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01-05-2012, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les Wynan View Post
Good question on Mitchell. I think that's definitely been the case as when he's been split from Handzus he's played with Thornton/Pavelski mostly but in those instances Handzus usually saw time with either Havlat or Marleau. In any case, Handzus just hasn't been doing the heavy lifting defensively (i.e. going up against top lines or even second lines on a regular basis) this season regardless of who he's played with and yet has still been completely dominated.

Stempniak would definitely be a smart, under-the-radar, buy low move similar to the Canucks picking up Higgins last season or the Hawks getting Frolik for scraps. I doubt the Flames would want much for him and seriously doubt he's in their future plans at all.
And he's 28 and been traveling a fair bit so the probability of re-signing him would be good. It's high time DW focus on fixing the 3rd line instead of throwing out vet scrubs and useless AHLers.

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01-05-2012, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les Wynan View Post
So point totals are all that matter? When Handzus has been on the ice this season, the Sharks have been outshot 441-344 (including missed and blocked shots, for and against) meaning he's spent a disproportionate percentage of his shifts in his own zone. That would be somewhat acceptable if he were lining up against Henrik Sedin and Pavel Datsyuk and Ryan Getzlaf every night but he's not. He's playing against scrubs and is being dominated territorially, especially when you consider the fact that he's one of just 3 Sharks to have been outshot this year (the others being Demers, who has sucked, and Douglas Murray, who's excusable since he was playing the toughest minutes on the team before his injury).

Those shots against will turn into minuses soon enough. Niemi and Greiss have posted a 0.946 SV% at even strength behind Handzus this season. Only four players in the entire NHL sustained an on-ice SV% that high by the end of last year (all fourth liners who exclusively played against other fourth liners) and even if Handzus is able to get that lucky he's costing the team by losing the possession battle so sorely -- 52% of his shifts have ended in the defensive zone, forcing Thornton and Couture to begin their shifts there more often which is an obvious and significant disadvantage.

It's highly unlikely a halfway decent replacement for Handzus playing the same role would get dominated to such an extent. Wellwood was phenomenal in that role last season and he's hardly an elite player. Obviously Handzus isn't the only guy on the ice at even strength but it's telling that McGinn and Mitchell have been significantly better possession-wise when they've been split from Handzus (as I alluded to earlier, neither has been outshot at even strength) while Handzus has been considerably worse. In an ideal world, Handzus and Mitchell are both gone but Handzus has undoubtedly been worse this season, especially when you take into consideration his terrible penalty killing.
How much of those statistics can be attributed to his line-mates? For shots taken for/against, it's not like he's the only forward on the ice. He's played a good portion of the season with Mitchell and McGinn, both sub-par defensive and possession players. Their numbers could be skewed considering both of them played some games with the first and second lines whereas Handzus has always been the 3rd line center playing with whoever is left.
As for the PK, hasn't he been paired with Thornton on a consistent basis? Thornton is an average PKer at best, which again, could skew Handzus' numbers.

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Good question on Mitchell. I think that's definitely been the case as when he's been split from Handzus he's played with Thornton/Pavelski mostly but in those instances Handzus usually saw time with either Havlat or Marleau.
And Handzus' numbers probably rose significantly when paired with Havlat or Marleau.

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01-05-2012, 07:41 PM
  #42
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TOM is also a former CBJ, so he might not be the guy in the press box.
Serious brain fart....who is TOM?

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01-05-2012, 07:43 PM
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Serious brain fart....who is TOM?
The Other Murray

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01-05-2012, 07:43 PM
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Serious brain fart....who is TOM?
Andrew Murray.

TOM=The Other Murray

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01-05-2012, 07:46 PM
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How much of those statistics can be attributed to his line-mates? For shots taken for/against, it's not like he's the only forward on the ice. He's played a good portion of the season with Mitchell and McGinn, both sub-par defensive and possession players. Their numbers could be skewed considering both of them played some games with the first and second lines whereas Handzus has always been the 3rd line center playing with whoever is left.
As for the PK, hasn't he been paired with Thornton on a consistent basis? Thornton is an average PKer at best, which again, could skew Handzus' numbers.
Like I said, McGinn and Mitchell have kept their heads above water in terms of possession when they've been split from Handzus while Zeus has continued to drown. His Fenwick ratio (ES shots and missed shots for divided by total ES shots and missed shots, usually correlates well with scoring chances) has been 0.448, by far the lowest on the team. The closest player to him is Demers at 0.460 and the closest forward is McGinn at a positive 0.503. And while McGinn has historically been a poor possession player (who's obviously taken some serious and impressive strides forward this season), Mitchell posted really good possession numbers last year, although they were mostly a byproduct of getting to play with Pavelski and Wellwood.

He does spend a good amount of time killing penalties with Thornton (which is one of those PK pairings that I just can't wrap my head around the rationale behind) but in terms of allowing goals on the PK, he's been by far the worst forward on the team, significantly worse than even Thornton in that regard. And this is despite progressively seeing less time against the #1 unit as the season has gone on. It's a small sample size shorthanded and I don't want to pin the Sharks' PK failings on Handzus but he hasn't been good.

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01-05-2012, 08:03 PM
  #46
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Andrew Murray.

TOM=The Other Murray
Ah, gotcha. Well, I think TOM is being singled out because you never say "Oh look, there is A. Murray" when he is on the ice. On the other hand, you constantly notice Winchester and Desjardins. Even IF Deji can't put it in the net on a breakaway to save his life, he at least gets chances.

TOM and Torrey Mitchell just have not produced at all, but at least TOM can play his position correctly. Mitchell is as useless as a poop flavored lollypop.

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01-05-2012, 08:33 PM
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How well will Tommy Wingells do in his first call-up to the NHL?

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01-05-2012, 08:35 PM
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How well will Tommy Wingells do in his first call-up to the NHL?
It's not his first call up. Hopefully he will continue to play as well as he's been playing for the Baby Sharks and contribute.

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01-05-2012, 08:36 PM
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How well will Tommy Wingells do in his first call-up to the NHL?
Has played 8 games already for the Sharks. Pretty sure he made team out of camp last year.

Best player in Worcester right now. Likely wont be a scorer at the NHL level

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01-05-2012, 08:37 PM
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Ah, gotcha. Well, I think TOM is being singled out because you never say "Oh look, there is A. Murray" when he is on the ice. On the other hand, you constantly notice Winchester and Desjardins. Even IF Deji can't put it in the net on a breakaway to save his life, he at least gets chances.

TOM and Torrey Mitchell just have not produced at all, but at least TOM can play his position correctly. Mitchell is as useless as a poop flavored lollypop.
TOM is the epitome of an invisibly effective player. You never notice him, in either a good or bad way. Doesn't generate much, but by the same token isn't a detriment. He's more or less meeting the practically non-existent expectations, whereas his linemates are far surpassing theirs.

In any event, I vote keep TOM. Winchester and Desi have proven to be just as effective the few games he's been scratched, but I'd like to not mess with that line if we don't have to. It's been far and away our most consistent line, and I'd quite like to keep it that way.

Also, that analogy to Mitchell is both disgusting and accurate.

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