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01-05-2012, 09:24 PM
  #51
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The question we have to ask about Schenn is this. Is he good enough to be a 2nd line center on a Cup championship team?

I have Couturier penciled in as a great 2 way 3rd line center.

Giroux is obviously a star first line center

That leaves the 2nd line. Personally id love to see us make a run for getzlaf then see if Schenn can develop into that 2nd line center.
Yes Schenn has 2nd line maybe even 1st line potential, but the Flyers don't need him to be a #1. Will he reach it? Who knows.

Not a chance. If the Flyers were to get Getzlaf, Schenn or Couturier would have to be going the other way.

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01-05-2012, 09:28 PM
  #52
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Yes Schenn has 2nd line maybe even 1st line potential, but the Flyers don't need him to be a #1. Will he reach it? Who knows.

Not a chance. If the Flyers were to get Getzlaf, Schenn or Couturier would have to be going the other way.
well i have no problem with trading scheen or Couturier plus for Gezlaf. If he is our second line center the flyers would have the best 2 lines in hockey.

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01-05-2012, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
The question we have to ask about Schenn is this. Is he good enough to be a 2nd line center on a Cup championship team?

I have Couturier penciled in as a great 2 way 3rd line center.

Giroux is obviously a star first line center

That leaves the 2nd line. Personally id love to see us make a run for getzlaf then see if Schenn can develop into that 2nd line center.
I really can see Schenn as Richards with more offensive upside. Last 3 games, now he is healthy, the guy has shown why he is so highly rated.

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01-05-2012, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
The question we have to ask about Schenn is this. Is he good enough to be a 2nd line center on a Cup championship team?

I have Couturier penciled in as a great 2 way 3rd line center.

Giroux is obviously a star first line center

That leaves the 2nd line. Personally id love to see us make a run for getzlaf then see if Schenn can develop into that 2nd line center.
Screw everyone that doesn't believe Couturier has 1st line center offensive potential.

Same for Schenn, but especially Couturier.

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01-05-2012, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Screw everyone that doesn't believe Couturier has 1st line center offensive potential.

Same for Schenn, but especially Couturier.
are you saying screw me? I doubt couturier takes the top line center spot from giroux. I think he will be good but dont see him being better than Giroux who is the best player in the NHL right now.

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01-05-2012, 10:06 PM
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are you saying screw me? I doubt couturier takes the top line center spot from giroux. I think he will be good but dont see him being better than Giroux who is the best player in the NHL right now.
That's not what he's saying at all. Most people pencil him in here as a 3rd line center which is ****ing retarded. The kid with the highest point per game rate of his draft class doesn't equal a 3rd line center. That's a draft with RNH in it . Giroux was not mentioned once.

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01-05-2012, 10:13 PM
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That's not what he's saying at all. Most people pencil him in here as a 3rd line center which is ****ing retarded. The kid with the highest point per game rate of his draft class doesn't equal a 3rd line center. That's a draft with RNH in it . Giroux was not mentioned once.
PPG when its barely higher doesn't prove anything when the QMJHL is the highest scoring league of the 3. Scouts can be wrong obviously but from what i have seen junior wise he doesn't have as high a potential as RNH, Strome, and Huberdeau. I dont know about Schiefele or Zibanejad as i haven't watched them at that stage. The argument scouts made and they were right, was that Couturier abused his size to get points much more than using skill. And when everyone in the NHL is just as big as you, it won't work. Hes very good defensively but you can't just gauge his offensive potential right now and say hes guaranteed to do this or that as you'll be very disappointed. I personally see him as a jordan staal type player with a litte bit more upside offensively.

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01-05-2012, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Left Circle OneTimer View Post
PPG when its barely higher doesn't prove anything when the QMJHL is the highest scoring league of the 3. Scouts can be wrong obviously but from what i have seen junior wise he doesn't have as high a potential as RNH, Strome, and Huberdeau. I dont know about Schiefele or Zibanejad as i haven't watched them at that stage. The argument scouts made and they were right, was that Couturier abused his size to get points much more than using skill. And when everyone in the NHL is just as big as you, it won't work. Hes very good defensively but you can't just gauge his offensive potential right now and say hes guaranteed to do this or that as you'll be very disappointed. I personally see him as a jordan staal type player with a litte bit more upside offensively.

I'm not saying he'll be better offensively than RNH or Huberdeau but the PPG rate shows how talented he is. He will be way better than Zibenajad.

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01-05-2012, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by captain richie18 View Post
That's not what he's saying at all. Most people pencil him in here as a 3rd line center which is ****ing retarded. The kid with the highest point per game rate of his draft class doesn't equal a 3rd line center. That's a draft with RNH in it . Giroux was not mentioned once.
He is a third line center when you have two centers better than him.

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01-05-2012, 10:30 PM
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He is a third line center when you have two centers better than him.
Briere at center is such a liability right now, especially when he's not really producing. Couturier is a rookie. If you think Briere will be better than him in 2 years your a fool.

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01-05-2012, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by captain richie18 View Post
Briere at center is such a liability right now, especially when he's not really producing. Couturier is a rookie. If you think Briere will be better than him in 2 years your a fool.
Halfway through tonight's game I was wondering if Briere was even playing.

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01-05-2012, 10:35 PM
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Briere at center is such a liability right now, especially when he's not really producing. Couturier is a rookie. If you think Briere will be better than him in 2 years your a fool.
giroux schenn

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01-05-2012, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Left Circle OneTimer View Post
PPG when its barely higher doesn't prove anything when the QMJHL is the highest scoring league of the 3.
Is not. Has not really been for years now.

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Originally Posted by Left Circle OneTimer View Post
Scouts can be wrong obviously but from what i have seen junior wise he doesn't have as high a potential as RNH, Strome, and Huberdeau.
Strome and Huberdeau are overrated. Also, why does Huberdeau have more offensive potential? He averaged less points per game with better teammates and just as much offensive ice-time. Not to mention Huberdeau isn't close to as defensively responsible as Couturier; in fact Couturier was probably the most defensively responsible forward in the draft.

Some please clarify...why should Couturier have fallen behind Huberdeau?

I assure you Couturier would be on the Panthers right now. Huberdeau is not.

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I dont know about Schiefele or Zibanejad as i haven't watched them at that stage.
Schiefele is a mystery. I think he was a reach, but he was very good in preseason.

Zibanejad was taken because he fits the puck control system that Ottawa wants to implement.

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Originally Posted by Left Circle OneTimer View Post
The argument scouts made and they were right, was that Couturier abused his size to get points much more than using skill.
And Couturier will only get bigger while filling out his frame, which means he'll be able to open up more space for himself and his teammates so that he can demonstrate the skill that he clearly demonstrated in juniors.

There are plenty of 6'4 guys in Canadian Juniors. Not all of them were PPG leaders in the 2011 draft.

Then again, if you're saying guys like Carter and vanRiemsdyk and Nash and Staal and Getzlaf and any number of big name forwards around 6'3-6'4 didn't use size to their advantage in junior then perhaps you are right. None of those guys could've possibly used their height.

Truth be told, it makes me happy that Couturier has discovered how to use his body at an early age. JVR could use some help with that. It will not only make Couturier more trouble along the walls, down low, and in front of the net while he uses his great hands but also in the defensive zone.

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And when everyone in the NHL is just as big as you, it won't work.
The NHL is probably the most diverse league in the world in terms of height. I could be wrong, but I'd be surprised if it was a different league.

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Hes very good defensively but you can't just gauge his offensive potential right now and say hes guaranteed to do this or that as you'll be very disappointed.
I sure as hell can. Have you seen his hands, his vision, his control, his boardwork?

You've seen him on the fourth line...using his hands, his vision, his control, and his boardwork...with chumps like Rinaldo and Zolnierczyk and Shelley and Sestito...without PP time or real offensive ice time to speak of.

He skates very well, has the patience most top line forwards in the NHL have, has complete control, has the size to dominate in all zones of the ice, and you still think he is not talented enough to score points in the NHL.

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I personally see him as a jordan staal type player with a litte bit more upside offensively.
Jordan Staal with a little bit more offensive upside is Eric Staal, which is who I said Couturier is most like.

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01-05-2012, 10:39 PM
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Halfway through tonight's game I was wondering if Briere was even playing.
It's about time to bring Couturier into the top 9, drop Talbot down, and move Briere back to wing.

Hartnell - Giroux - Read
vanRiemsdyk - Schenn - Briere
Simmonds - Couturier - Voracek
Rinaldo - Talbot - Zolnierczyk

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01-05-2012, 10:39 PM
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giroux schenn
I'm not too sure. I'm one of the BIGGEST Schenn fans you will find on this website. I love him and Couturier but I'm not positively sure who will be better offensively. I'm a big believer in Coots offensive game, he was projected top 2 pick in the draft before his final season in junior. He got hurt as you know. We shouldn't be arguing though we have both . I would rather trade Couturier out of the two though, I feel like a player like Schenn is definitely more valuable to a team. (not in trade terms)

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01-05-2012, 10:57 PM
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Is not. Has not really been for years now.



Strome and Huberdeau are overrated. Also, why does Huberdeau have more offensive potential? He averaged less points per game with better teammates and just as much offensive ice-time. Not to mention Huberdeau isn't close to as defensively responsible as Couturier; in fact Couturier was probably the most defensively responsible forward in the draft.

Some please clarify...why should Couturier have fallen behind Huberdeau?

I assure you Couturier would be on the Panthers right now. Huberdeau is not.



Schiefele is a mystery. I think he was a reach, but he was very good in preseason.

Zibanejad was taken because he fits the puck control system that Ottawa wants to implement.



And Couturier will only get bigger while filling out his frame, which means he'll be able to open up more space for himself and his teammates so that he can demonstrate the skill that he clearly demonstrated in juniors.

There are plenty of 6'4 guys in Canadian Juniors. Not all of them were PPG leaders in the 2011 draft.

Then again, if you're saying guys like Carter and vanRiemsdyk and Nash and Staal and Getzlaf and any number of big name forwards around 6'3-6'4 didn't use size to their advantage in junior then perhaps you are right. None of those guys could've possibly used their height.

Truth be told, it makes me happy that Couturier has discovered how to use his body at an early age. JVR could use some help with that. It will not only make Couturier more trouble along the walls, down low, and in front of the net while he uses his great hands but also in the defensive zone.



The NHL is probably the most diverse league in the world in terms of height. I could be wrong, but I'd be surprised if it was a different league.



I sure as hell can. Have you seen his hands, his vision, his control, his boardwork?

You've seen him on the fourth line...using his hands, his vision, his control, and his boardwork...with chumps like Rinaldo and Zolnierczyk and Shelley and Sestito...without PP time or real offensive ice time to speak of.

He skates very well, has the patience most top line forwards in the NHL have, has complete control, has the size to dominate in all zones of the ice, and you still think he is not talented enough to score points in the NHL.



Jordan Staal with a little bit more offensive upside is Eric Staal, which is who I said Couturier is most like.
Eh so a guy not playing in the nhl right now because the team doesn't want to rush a prospect is a bad thing?Guys like Bobby Ryan, Corey Perry (who played 2 more years in Junior after being drafted), and even Giroux must be scrubs then. Stop looking at the numbers alone. Huberdeau is a DOMINANT player and clutch player. Also where was couturier come playoff time in juniors? I mean isn't that exactly how we knew Giroux had very high offensive upside? Just watch the guys play or atleast in this case go rewatch old games or something.

Nothings wrong with pimping your own guy but to say the other guys picked before him are trash to make you feel better is just not being smart. Overrated? Ha far from it. Everyone said RNH was overrated and he was the weakest 1st round pick in years and i had an argument with a fellow flyer fan here who was saying Couturier>>>>>> RNH before the season started and then look what happened.

Yeah... Jordan stall with a little bit more upside is not even close to Eric Staal unless your talking Eric staal of 11-12.

Also what Lavy is doing with limited minutes is perfectly fine. If Couturier finishes the year with 25 points while playing the 4th line hes developing perfectly fine imo. We saw what happened when he was immediately placed on the first line when Giroux got injured. Hes jut not ready so theres no need to rush him.


Last edited by Left Circle OneTimer: 01-05-2012 at 11:03 PM.
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01-05-2012, 11:07 PM
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It's about time to bring Couturier into the top 9, drop Talbot down, and move Briere back to wing.

Hartnell - Giroux - Read
vanRiemsdyk - Schenn - Briere
Simmonds - Couturier - Voracek
Rinaldo - Talbot - Zolnierczyk
been saying this since november

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01-05-2012, 11:08 PM
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Eh so a guy not playing in the nhl right now because the team doesn't want to rush a prospect is a bad thing?Guys like Bobby Ryan, Corey Perry (who played 2 more years in Junior after being drafted), and even Giroux must be scrubs then. Stop looking at the numbers alone. Huberdeau is a DOMINANT player and clutch player. Also where was couturier come playoff time in juniors? I mean isn't that exactly how we knew Giroux had very high offensive upside? Just watch the guys play or atleast in this case go rewatch old games or something.

Nothings wrong with pimping your own guy but to say the other guys picked before him are trash to make you feel better is just not being smart. Overrated? Ha far from it. Everyone said RNH was overrated and he was the weakest 1st round pick in years and i had an argument with a fellow flyer fan here who was saying Couturier>>>>>> RNH before the season started and then look what happened.

Yeah... Jordan stall with a little bit more upside is not even close to Eric Staal unless your talking Eric staal of 11-12.

Also what Lavy is doing with limited minutes is perfectly fine. If Couturier finishes the year with 25 points while playing the 4th line hes developing perfectly fine imo. We saw what happened when he was immediately placed on the first line when Giroux got injured. Hes jut not ready so theres no need to rush him.
So you're agreeing with me?

60-75 point forward with an elite defensive game?

I believe that is a 1st line center.

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01-06-2012, 12:18 AM
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I told you guys that even in just the few games he played before his concussion that you could really see ths dkill level of this kid even though he wasn't producing offensively. He just does not look out of place. I was most impressed how he was more than capable and comfortable taking control of his line from the first shift of his first game with us. When he is on the ice he is most definitely the leader of his line. He just controls the puck and the ice. We definitely have a keeper here. I LOVE Couts but if we could only keep one of the two I'd keep Schenn. I know that Im probably in the minority but that's ok. I'm just prying that we DON'T trade anyone and that we keep all of Giroux, JVR, Voracek, Schenn and Couturier. that's a pretty damned spectacular young forward core to build the future around IMO.

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01-06-2012, 12:28 AM
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I told you guys that even in just the few games he played before his concussion that you could really see ths dkill level of this kid even though he wasn't producing offensively. He just does not look out of place. I was most impressed how he was more than capable and comfortable taking control of his line from the first shift of his first game with us. When he is on the ice he is most definitely the leader of his line. He just controls the puck and the ice. We definitely have a keeper here. I LOVE Couts but if we could only keep one of the two I'd keep Schenn. I know that Im probably in the minority but that's ok. I'm just prying that we DON'T trade anyone and that we keep all of Giroux, JVR, Voracek, Schenn and Couturier. that's a pretty damned spectacular young forward core to build the future around IMO.
vanRiemsdyk - Giroux - xxxxxxx
xxxxxxx - Schenn - Voracek
Simmonds - Couturier - Read
Rinaldo - xxxxxx - Zolnierczyk
Sestito

Seriously. What a core. I really just want to draft a defenseman and trade for/sign a top 4 guy that won't cost us an arm and a leg. Maybe keep Carle as well with the way he's playing recently.

There's no reason to screw with that spectacular core.

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01-06-2012, 12:38 AM
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The question we have to ask about Schenn is this. Is he good enough to be a 2nd line center on a Cup championship team?

I have Couturier penciled in as a great 2 way 3rd line center.

Giroux is obviously a star first line center

That leaves the 2nd line. Personally id love to see us make a run for getzlaf than see if Schenn can develop into that 2nd line center.

He may not be yet but he most certainly will be very soon. This kid will end up being better than some teams #1 center, we will be very very happy to have him leading our "2nd" line.

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01-06-2012, 12:43 AM
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PPG when its barely higher doesn't prove anything when the QMJHL is the highest scoring league of the 3. Scouts can be wrong obviously but from what i have seen junior wise he doesn't have as high a potential as RNH, Strome, and Huberdeau. I dont know about Schiefele or Zibanejad as i haven't watched them at that stage. The argument scouts made and they were right, was that Couturier abused his size to get points much more than using skill. And when everyone in the NHL is just as big as you, it won't work. Hes very good defensively but you can't just gauge his offensive potential right now and say hes guaranteed to do this or that as you'll be very disappointed. I personally see him as a jordan staal type player with a litte bit more upside offensively.

This might be valid IF the QMJHL actually WAS the highest scoring league in the CHL juniors, which it isn't any more. That title was taken over by the OHL for the last 3 years IIRC.

The rest of your points may be valid but if you are basing everything off the incorrect assumption that the QMJHL is an all offense, no defense league then you are building your argument on a very shaky foundation.

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01-06-2012, 12:56 AM
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vanRiemsdyk - Giroux - xxxxxxx
xxxxxxx - Schenn - Voracek
Simmonds - Couturier - Read
Rinaldo - xxxxxx - Zolnierczyk
Sestito

Seriously. What a core. I really just want to draft a defenseman and trade for/sign a top 4 guy that won't cost us an arm and a leg. Maybe keep Carle as well with the way he's playing recently.

There's no reason to screw with that spectacular core.

I agree completely. Keep Carle, don't screw with things. Sign a UFA dman (hopefully Suter reaches the market and we sign him for 7.5 mil, yes that's over paying him but we get our much needed top pairing guy and all it costs us is cap space, we'll have more cap space once timonen retires and if Pronger is finished for the other guys).

One thing though, people have a misnomer about this years draft. It's tremendously deep through the first 15 or so (like thos top 12-15 would be top 5 picks in most draft classes) but after that it falls pretty fast. the next tier (supposedly to somewhere in the mid 20's) SHOULD be on par with the same numbered pick on other drafts but after that those picks a significant;y LESS valuable than the same numbered pick as in typical draft classes. Ie - the player taken say 30th OA this year probably wouldn't have been drafted until the early to mid 2nd rnd last year or next year. what I'm trying to say is that unless we miss the playoffs (we'd pretty much have to tank the rest of the season) or we trade up in the draft, it's unlikely that we get a "blue chip" dman who is a future top pairing guy with our 1st rnd pick. We MIGHT, but at the draft that player wouldn't PROJECT to be that type of dman.

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01-06-2012, 01:11 AM
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I agree completely. Keep Carle, don't screw with things. Sign a UFA dman (hopefully Suter reaches the market and we sign him for 7.5 mil, yes that's over paying him but we get our much needed top pairing guy and all it costs us is cap space, we'll have more cap space once timonen retires and if Pronger is finished for the other guys).

One thing though, people have a misnomer about this years draft. It's tremendously deep through the first 15 or so (like thos top 12-15 would be top 5 picks in most draft classes) but after that it falls pretty fast. the next tier (supposedly to somewhere in the mid 20's) SHOULD be on par with the same numbered pick on other drafts but after that those picks a significant;y LESS valuable than the same numbered pick as in typical draft classes. Ie - the player taken say 30th OA this year probably wouldn't have been drafted until the early to mid 2nd rnd last year or next year. what I'm trying to say is that unless we miss the playoffs (we'd pretty much have to tank the rest of the season) or we trade up in the draft, it's unlikely that we get a "blue chip" dman who is a future top pairing guy with our 1st rnd pick. We MIGHT, but at the draft that player wouldn't PROJECT to be that type of dman.
I'm under the impression...

#1 - sign, sealed, and soon to be delivered.
#2-15 - normal top 10
#16-30 - top 20 picks
#30-40 - late/fringe first rounders

#40+ - very late second round quality/early third round and on

I think we can find a nice value pick both late in the 2nd and early in the 3rd. I'm not talking your Pronger's or your Chara's or your Weber's or your Doughty's (unless we get lucky), I'm talking about your potential Carle or Hamhuis or Coburn or Hjalmarsson. You get the idea.

I think we can get one or even two if we move up in the 2nd. There's some solid defensive value picks to be had right in that 15-40 range.

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01-06-2012, 08:01 AM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
This might be valid IF the QMJHL actually WAS the highest scoring league in the CHL juniors, which it isn't any more. That title was taken over by the OHL for the last 3 years IIRC.

The rest of your points may be valid but if you are basing everything off the incorrect assumption that the QMJHL is an all offense, no defense league then you are building your argument on a very shaky foundation.
His argument would still be null considering that Schenn had a high ppg and played in the lowest scoring of the 3 (WHL). He had a slightly higher pace than RNY. I don't think he will be as good as RNH obviously but just from what i have seen with my own two eyes, on the ice Schenn is a more dynamic player than couturier and couturier's defense is perfect for the 3rd line ore center on a winning team (bolland on the Hawks, Staal on Pittsburgh ect)

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