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#41 : Kings vs. Coyotes - 1/5/12 , Post Game OT WIN ! Thoughts & Tidbits

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01-06-2012, 03:56 PM
  #201
Buddy The Elf
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Originally Posted by RH63 View Post
And he shouldn't especially when we still have JB around. The major difference between JQ and JB is an opportunity. And as great as JQ has been, JB can be equally great.
I agree completely. We don't know what Bernier can do yet. I was talking about this last night with a friend but they need to give Bernier more starts if only to increase his trade value when time comes to move one of them. Unfortunately, the Kings have been so poor offensively and Quick for the most part has held them where they are in the standings so they can't really afford to risk that right now. I hope that if and when the Kings are more comfortably in the playoff picture, they begin to use Bernier more. Ideally, Terry Murray would have learned from the past and not rode Quick so much in the beginning of the season but he was trying to save his job so I'm sure that was never given much consideration. It is funny that we are discussing this because I had this exact conversation last night with a friend.

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01-06-2012, 03:58 PM
  #202
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True but that is a sports wide problem.

DB took a team discount. It happens but it is rarer than hens teeth.

Can't blame anyone who goes for the gold unless they start publicly byatching about wanting to win a championship more than anything else. Sometimes you gotta give to get. These are the things that I would tell my players when they asked for it all at once but then I am a freaking dinosaur around here or so it seems.


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01-06-2012, 04:04 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by RH63 View Post
Clearly, you haven't read my discussion with Kingsfan regarding the definition of a "best player".
Actually I read all of your posts and have read every post in this thread.

I still think you are selling Quick short.

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01-06-2012, 04:05 PM
  #204
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[QUOTE=kingsfan;42020497]
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Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post

That's a twisted argument. I could state that Colorado only had an average team until Patrick Roy arrived since they didn't do anything of significance beforehand. Offense is a key piece, no kidding, but they wouldn't be winning nearly as often if Biron was in net all the time. They go hand in hand.



Correct. Which means what? That they should drop Lundqvist for a cheaper mediocore goalie and spend the money on goalscoring to win the cup? Like I said before, in the part of my post you didn't quote, for each cheap goaltender to win a cup, there is one who was very well paid as well. The same can be said of defense and forwards, as past cup winners post-lockout have had low paid defensemen and forwards as well. Boston is a good example of that for forwards, Carolina for defensemen.

All your post proves is that winning a cup is a team sport, but all teams have their high priced talents. Just because that talent is in net doesn't mean it's a bad thing or a waste of cap space at all.



That's an assumption. I'm a big Bernier supporter too and think he'll be a great goaltender in his own right. But Quick is a sure thing, at least in the regular season. What if DL elects to go with Bernier and lets Quick walk, only to see Bernier falter? You really want to turn this team over to Martin Jones or "one of the other prospects?"
What cracks me up is LA finally (I mean that whole hearty) has a legit Franchise Goaltender. Quick has improved every year, he lost 10 to 15 pounds a season ago cause he felt he was too slow. That shows he has a professional mindset.

Quick is nails mentally, he has bad games but then comes out strong after.

The Kings finally have a legit hard working goalie (it's been forever since we had one). It's Quicks third contract (not second); and all people can talk about is how he should take a home town discount or Dean should low ball him.


I mean is this the twilight zone? Quick deserves to be one of the highest paid players on this team. How anyone can argue that without Quick we would be ok is silly. Without Quick I am sure we would be talking about Drafting Nail Yukopov. I love Johnny B But that guy is not even in the realm of Quick.

I know he doesn't get playing time (it's sad world and all) but that's for a reason. That reason is Quick.

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01-06-2012, 04:08 PM
  #205
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[QUOTE=damacles1156;42021061]
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post

What cracks me up is LA finally (I mean that whole hearty) has a legit Franchise Goaltender. Quick has improved every year, he lost 10 to 15 pounds a season ago cause he felt he was too slow. That shows he has a professional mindset.

Quick is nails mentally, he has bad games but then comes out strong after.

The Kings finally have a legit hard working goalie (it's been forever since we had one). It's Quicks third contract (not second); and all people can talk about is how he should take a home town discount or Dean should low ball him.


I mean is this the twilight zone? Quick deserves to be one of the highest paid players on this team.
Agreed. He earned his contract long before Doughty did. Fair's fair.

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01-06-2012, 04:11 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by lakingsdrummer View Post
Actually I read all of your posts and have read every post in this thread.

I still think you are selling Quick short.
I'm not selling Quick short at all. You're just too much about "what have you done for me lately".

Let me ask you this: If we were to trade DD, Kopi, MR and JQ, which would net us the biggest return?

My guess is, it won't be JQ, because unlike the other 3, JQ hasn't established himself as the best player, year after year.

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01-06-2012, 04:13 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by RH63 View Post
I'm not selling Quick short at all. You're just too much about "what have you done for me lately".

Let me ask you this: If we were to trade DD, Kopi, MR and JQ, which would net us the biggest return?

My guess is, it won't be JQ, because unlike the other 3, JQ hasn't established himself as the best player, year after year.
Not even going to bother

You would think with how poor LA goal tending has been in what Decades ?

People would want to Keep Quick even it cost a lot of money.

But hey we can throw anyone back their right ? It worked the last 10 to 15 years why not.

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01-06-2012, 04:14 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
Here's a breakdown of the lowest scoring teams in recent NHL memory.

Since the 94-95 strike...
Year - Team - Seed - GF - GFPG - GA - GAPG - Goalie - Leading Scorer - 2nd Scorer
03-04 - St. Louis Blues - 7th West - 191 - 2.33 - 198 - 2.41 - Osgood - Tkachuk (71) - Weight (65)
97-98 - Ottawa Senators - 8th East* - 193 - 2.35 - 200 - 2.44 - Rhodes/Tugnutt - Yashin (72) - McEachern (48)
03-04 - Dallas Stars - 5th West - 194 - 2.37 - 175 - 2.13 - Turco - Guerin (69) - Arnott (57)
*=97-98 OTT was in a 13 team conference

Post Lockout
Year - Team - Seed - GF - (GF-SOW)- GFPG - GA - GAPG - Goalie - Leading Scorer - 2nd Scorer
07-08 - Anaheim Ducks - 4th West - 205 - 197 - 2.40 - 184 - 2.24 - Giguere - Getzlaf (82) - Fairy (54)
09-10 - Boston Bruins - 6th East - 206 - 196 - 2.39 - 191 - 2.33 - Rask/Thomas - Bergeron (52) - Krejci (52)
07-08 - New Jersey Devils - 4th East - 206 - 198 - 2.41 - 193 - 2.35 - Brodeur - Parise (65) - Elias (55)

By comparison, here's the Kings projections (not currently in playoffs)

10-11 - Los Angeles Kings - 9th West - 176 - 170 - 2.07 - 176 - 2.15 - Quick - Kopitar (72) - Williams (48)
Whoa, am I reading this right? We're by far the lowest goal-for-per-game team in recent league history?

Yuck. You would think the law of averages would come into play at some point.

I keep hoping that this is just one of those things where we catch an absolute, unstoppable fire towards the end of the season and start scoring 3-4 gpg

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01-06-2012, 04:17 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post
Not even going to bother

You would think with how poor LA goal tending has been in what Decades ?

People would want to Keep Quick even it cost a lot of money.
I wouldn't go as far to say as the argument is stupid but I MOST certainly disagree.

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01-06-2012, 04:19 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
That's a twisted argument. I could state that Colorado only had an average team until Patrick Roy arrived since they didn't do anything of significance beforehand. Offense is a key piece, no kidding, but they wouldn't be winning nearly as often if Biron was in net all the time. They go hand in hand.
Ok.. I'm not going to trying and compare the Rangers to Colorado but the statistics tell the story in New York. Lundqvist has performed at a high level there for years. For the first time in like 5 season they are in the top 10 in scoring and they are one of the top teams in the league. That isn't a coincidence.

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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
Correct. Which means what? That they should drop Lundqvist for a cheaper mediocore goalie and spend the money on goalscoring to win the cup? Like I said before, in the part of my post you didn't quote, for each cheap goaltender to win a cup, there is one who was very well paid as well. The same can be said of defense and forwards, as past cup winners post-lockout have had low paid defensemen and forwards as well. Boston is a good example of that for forwards, Carolina for defensemen.
Who are the high paid goaltenders that won the Cup? I don't remember how much Giguere was getting paid when he won but I think it was a mid-level salary for a goalie. He got his payday after and took a huge dump too. Fleury and Thomas make $5m and I already said I think that is about what I'd expect Quick to get. I got involved in this debate when I saw $7-$8m for Quick. No goalie in that salary level has won a Cup. I'm not saying it isn't possible. I'm saying it isn't necessary. And for the way the Kings are built salary-wise for the foreseeable future, pull money from either defense or scoring to give Quick that kinda salary could be detrimental.

One thing is consistent with all post-lockout cup winners. Goal scoring. The Kings need that more than anything. If you can keep Quick and improve the goal scoring, great. But something will have to give. NYR rangers spend less than the total of Jack Johnson and Drew Doughty's CAP hits on their entire defensive roster. What happens when Quick makes $7m-$8m and the Kings have to spend less on their defense or anemic offense and Quick's performance suddenly drops? I'm not saying that Quick's success is dependent upon the defense in front of him because we have nothing to base it off of but is entirely possible that the team suffers when you have to shift more money to your goalie and take money from somewhere else.

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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
All your post proves is that winning a cup is a team sport, but all teams have their high priced talents. Just because that talent is in net doesn't mean it's a bad thing or a waste of cap space at all.
I'm sorry but the proof is in the pudding. Niemi is an average goalie. He won a cup. The guy was bleeding goals last playoffs and the Sharks still made it to the conference finals. Tim Thomas was a good goalie, had a bad year and then had an incredible run in the playoffs last year. Cam Ward was a rookie he had a incredible run in the playoffs and hasn't performed at that level since. Giguere was standing behind two hall of fame defensmen to win a cup. Chris Osgood played average in 07/08 and played incredible in the playoffs and won the Cup. None of these guys were considered "elite" when their teams were being built. A few of them got paid like it after but none of them played up to that standard again.

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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
That's an assumption. I'm a big Bernier supporter too and think he'll be a great goaltender in his own right. But Quick is a sure thing, at least in the regular season. What if DL elects to go with Bernier and lets Quick walk, only to see Bernier falter? You really want to turn this team over to Martin Jones or "one of the other prospects?"
that is why you start giving Bernier starts now so you know what you have. Just like when Nabokov and Kiprusoff where in San Jose. Do you think it really mattered who the Sharks kept? At the end of the day would anything have changed for the Sharks had the Sharks traded Nabokov and kept Kiprusoff?

I think goaltending is important but it is useless if you don't have a great offense and a good defense. Considering the Kings need to score more goals to be considered a legitimate contdender, I'd like to see more of the piece of pie used towards that.

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01-06-2012, 04:21 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post
Not even going to bother

You would think with how poor LA goal tending has been in what Decades ?

People would want to Keep Quick even it cost a lot of money.

But hey we can throw anyone back their right ? It worked the last 10 to 15 years why not.
Who are these people you're referring to? There are just as many who would oppose to pay JQ 7M+ as there are who are willing.

Oh, and thanks for not bothering.

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01-06-2012, 04:23 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by RH63 View Post
Who are these people you're referring to? There are just as many who would oppose to pay JQ 7M+ as there are who are willing.

Oh, and thanks for not bothering.
He is not going to get 7m+ I could see 7m (cap wise). But that would require a Strong playoff performance and a Hart trophy.

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01-06-2012, 04:24 PM
  #213
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He is not going to get 7m+ I could see 7m (cap wise). But that would require a Strong playoff performance and a Hart trophy.
Me too. Just not with the kings. And that's a good thing.

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01-06-2012, 04:29 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post
What cracks me up is LA finally (I mean that whole hearty) has a legit Franchise Goaltender. Quick has improved every year, he lost 10 to 15 pounds a season ago cause he felt he was too slow. That shows he has a professional mindset.

Quick is nails mentally, he has bad games but then comes out strong after.

The Kings finally have a legit hard working goalie (it's been forever since we had one). It's Quicks third contract (not second); and all people can talk about is how he should take a home town discount or Dean should low ball him.


I mean is this the twilight zone? Quick deserves to be one of the highest paid players on this team. How anyone can argue that without Quick we would be ok is silly. Without Quick I am sure we would be talking about Drafting Nail Yukopov. I love Johnny B But that guy is not even in the realm of Quick.

I know he doesn't get playing time (it's sad world and all) but that's for a reason. That reason is Quick.
I think paying Quick ~$5m is commensurate with his performance. I think the Bryzgalov's, Luongo's and Rinne's of the league are overpaid.

And you are right, without Quick, the Kings would be down by the Ducks in the standings. What do you expect the Kings to win by being the 30th goal scoring team in the league? My heart is warm for Quick and all that he is carrying this team but we should be focusing on building a team that carries the goaltender, not the opposite. See all the past cup champions of perfect examples. They all built great teams and they weren't centered around the goaltender. When Boston assembled their Cup winning team, the GM wasn't like "oh yeah, this Thomas guy, he is 30-whatever years old, he is going to really turn it on over the next year or two then perform lights out in the playoffs for us". No, he built a solid team and acquired two decent goaltenders to supplant the position.

It isn't about getting rid of Quick. I think you guys are out of your mind if you want to pay Quick Luongo/Bryzgalov/Rinne money. I've given you guys plenty of reasons why. You can disagree if you want. That is just my 3 cents.

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01-06-2012, 04:32 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
I think paying Quick ~$5m is commensurate with his performance. I think the Bryzgalov's, Luongo's and Rinne's of the league are overpaid.

And you are right, without Quick, the Kings would be down by the Ducks in the standings. What do you expect the Kings to win by being the 30th goal scoring team in the league? My heart is warm for Quick and all that he is carrying this team but we should be focusing on building a team that carries the goaltender, not the opposite. See all the past cup champions of perfect examples. They all built great teams and they weren't centered around the goaltender. When Boston assembled their Cup winning team, the GM wasn't like "oh yeah, this Thomas guy, he is 30-whatever years old, he is going to really turn it on over the next year or two then perform lights out in the playoffs for us". No, he built a solid team and acquired two decent goaltenders to supplant the position.

It isn't about getting rid of Quick. I think you guys are out of your mind if you want to pay Quick Luongo/Bryzgalov/Rinne money. I've given you guys plenty of reasons why. You can disagree if you want. That is just my 3 cents.
I think Rinnie is over paid as well. But to sit here and say Quick shouldn't get paid for his Third Contract is just as silly.

I think 5.9m(cap wise) Is fair maybe Higher. If Quick wins the Hart this year and has a strong Playoff; you have to pay the guy. You come with 5m (Cap wise) that is offensive. At least it would offend me.

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01-06-2012, 04:33 PM
  #216
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If I gets some time, I'm going to look into what teams spend on a percentage basis on their offensive, defensive and goaltenders. I was blown away just looking at the Kings defense vs the Rangers. Drew Doughty and Jack Johnson together have a higher cap hit than the whole NYR defense.

With the amount of money the Kings spend on defense, they should have one of the best defenses in the league and no doubt the goalie benefits from that.

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01-06-2012, 04:38 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post
I think Rinnie is over paid as well. But to sit here and say Quick shouldn't get paid for his Third Contract is just as silly.

I think 5.9m(cap wise) Is fair maybe Higher.
Again, I got into this debate when I saw $7-$8m posted by somebody. That is ludicrous and I stand by it. I think $6m is the absolutle highest he should get paid. And like someone else pointed out, I wouldn't give him more than a 4 year deal. Goaltending is a fickle position. Look at what goalies are in the leage today that were in the league 5 years ago. I remember when Andrew Raycroft won rookie of the year.

I think some of you guys are putting way too much stock into what a goalie brings to the table. The Kings goaltending has been so miserable for so long that Mathieu ****ing Garon was able to beat some Kings goalie records in one season here.

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01-06-2012, 04:39 PM
  #218
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Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
If I gets some time, I'm going to look into what teams spend on a percentage basis on their offensive, defensive and goaltenders. I was blown away just looking at the Kings defense vs the Rangers. Drew Doughty and Jack Johnson together have a higher cap hit than the whole NYR defense.

With the amount of money the Kings spend on defense, they should have one of the best defenses in the league and no doubt the goalie benefits from that.
I think Jack is fine (Cap wise). Drew on the other hand has not earned his second contract so far.

But I am ok with paying for potential with Drew. I feel Quick has earned his Third Contract so far.

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01-06-2012, 04:39 PM
  #219
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Let's talk extension when the season is over and we know what we are dealing with. Arguing over $6-7 million now doesn't make any sense. All I know is I am sure as hell glad he is on my team for next to nothing this season and the next. This team needs to work their tails off at improving the offense and giving this guy support, because he is knocking his end of the bargain out of the park while their's is a bunt to third base playing for El Cid Lounge in a men's softball league.

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01-06-2012, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
Again, I got into this debate when I saw $7-$8m posted by somebody. That is ludicrous and I stand by it. I think $6m is the absolutle highest he should get paid. And like someone else pointed out, I wouldn't give him more than a 4 year deal. Goaltending is a fickle position. Look at what goalies are in the leage today that were in the league 5 years ago. I remember when Andrew Raycroft won rookie of the year.

I think some of you guys are putting way too much stock into what a goalie brings to the table. The Kings goaltending has been so miserable for so long that Mathieu ****ing Garon was able to beat some Kings goalie records in one season here.
That same argument could be made about any position in Hockey. It's not just Goalies. At least be fair. You know Campbell, Gomez, Drury, ETC ETC.

But I digress

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01-06-2012, 04:49 PM
  #221
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Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post
That same argument could be made about any position in Hockey. It's not just Goalies. At least be fair. You know Campbell, Gomez, Drury, ETC ETC.

But I digress
I think you are making my point for me. Those guys are all overpaid but most are still servicable players. They were servicable players when they were signed to their bloated contracts. I'm advocating not overpaying a goaltender like those guys were.

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01-06-2012, 05:05 PM
  #222
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Without Quick I am sure we would be talking about Drafting Nail Yukopov.
With Crawford running his "system" we would be talking the same thing regardless of how well Quick played. But it would be funny because all those saying he is the league MVP today, wouldn't have the same opinion of him in that case. Kings goalie problem was partially because of goalies and partially because of skaters in front of them. Quick's success is "constructed" the same way.

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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
To me it is contradictory to say one player is our most important over another and then use the word "team" in the same sentence. JQ has had his shakey nights where the *team* stepped up and played their butts off in front of him and visa versa.

Team.

No one person is more important to the overall success of any team.

Quick is the best Kings goalie I have seen play at times and that includes Vachon and on and he has been really really good this year but so has the team in front of him at times.
Good post.

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01-06-2012, 05:10 PM
  #223
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Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
Who are the high paid goaltenders that won the Cup? I don't remember how much Giguere was getting paid when he won but I think it was a mid-level salary for a goalie.
6M

And 7M for Quick is too much, forget it. People are just nuts...

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01-06-2012, 05:12 PM
  #224
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01-06-2012, 05:56 PM
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When the hell are we going to wake up and start scoring again? Boston has more goals in twenty minutes than we have in multiple games combined. It's not like we are a team full of scrubs and rejects, some of these guys know how to score. Kopi, Richards, Brown, Williams, Doughty, Johnson and Penner. WTF! It's really annoying after watching 24/7 and seeing how badly those guys want to win. I hope we have that same hunger, but outside of Quick I don't sense it.

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