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Should the Flyers trade their 5th best forward?

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Old
01-07-2012, 01:14 AM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orange is better View Post
i agree that our defense needs an addition

but do you guys think gleason is worth using our limited cap space from LTIR on?

gleason hasn't exactly been good this season or last season, and even canes fans seem to think he's terrible.

i don't know if gleason will help enough to warrant using the extra cap space we have.
well I think it all depends what you are willing to give up to get a defenseman.
Beauchemin would be a good choice I think but I think hes going to be highly sought after and the price might be too high.

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01-07-2012, 01:34 AM
  #52
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I like this thread. If JVR ever gets meaner (is that possible?) and starts throwing his weight around more, he could be one of the most dangerous players in the league. I see a lot of Jeff Carter in him right now -- the ability to dominate, but not the ability to do it consistently. JVR must assert himself physically in order to reach his potential.

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01-07-2012, 01:36 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Philadelphia Ducks View Post
Benn, Couture, Subban, Shattenkirk
I agree with Couture and Benn being better than JVR right now, but now way in hell is P.K. Subban better than him right now. I can not believe how over hyped he is. I'm not saying PK won't develop into a stud dman, but his play has been down right awful at times this year. He does have a great shot from the point but still I think is the most overrated players on these boards IMO

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01-07-2012, 02:14 AM
  #54
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Subban reminds me a bit of MDZ. MDZ was promising, then really bad, and now he's really good. I expect Subban will possibly do something similar.

Maybe.

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01-07-2012, 05:41 AM
  #55
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I think if JVR goes we need something dynamite coming back. JVR is injured right now, but even if it takes 2 years until he finally breaks out as an elite player, I believe it will happen. He's steadily increasing his offensive production throughout his career, even though he's having a rough year playing injured. Believe it or not, he's still outproducing his playoff points/game from last year.

That said, I do not believe the stats you displayed mean much at all. I watch the game with my eyes, and Voracek has been so much better than JVR that they shouldn't even be compared.

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Old
01-07-2012, 06:12 AM
  #56
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One can trade a future first liner for a future first pairing defenseman. Anything less would be a failure.

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01-07-2012, 06:24 AM
  #57
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thing is JVR might be good, but you need to look what we need now?
an even better offence? or to tighten defence?
i wouldn't hesitate a single second.

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01-07-2012, 06:27 AM
  #58
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I'm always of the belief that anyone is tradeable (it still stung when some of the trades made in the past off seasons were made though), and JvR is certainly no exception to that, even if he's one of my favourite players on the current team. Even though his season so far hasn't been up to the standard most of us expected, there's no need to shop him around however. If we are to trade him, a true #1 defender or a genuine upgrade on forward is coming our way. Someone like Jamie Benn for instance. Or maybe Logan Couture.

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01-07-2012, 08:34 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by sandlansd View Post
Just being practical and looking at certain team dynamics, here's my take on the possibility of certain players being traded:

Couturier: Is our best defensive center/forward, is only 19 years old, shows 70+ point upside along w/ Selke caliber defense. He is on the ice whenever Lavvy needs our guys to shut down the opposing team's offense. He's also our best or 2nd best PKer. He plays an important role on this team and I don't think he's replaceable. He is also roommates w/ Danny B. Just don't see the Flyers upsetting that arrangement or getting rid of a stud 19 year old like Couturier. Highly unlikely he is moved.

Schenn: Is our best offensive prospect, is only 20 years old and has gigantic upside. In the past few games, he's proven quite responsible defensively and has been winning draws... something this team could really use. He also has a goal and an assist in his last 2 games and seems to be heating up offensively. Additionally, he is ROOMMATES W/ CLAUDE GIROUX. I seriously doubt this team does anything to mess w/ Claude's living arrangement @ this point. When you add in the fact that he was the center-piece of the Richards deal, I don't see him going anywhere for anything less than a giant overpayment.

Danny B: No movement clause + complicated situation w/ his ex wife / over custody of kids + Couturier as roommate = NO CHANCE HE IS TRADED.

Scott Hartnell: One of the locker room leaders of the team, perfect chemistry w/ Giroux, etc. I just don't see him being moved after he stepped his game up, cut out the stupid penalties and has been doing everything his coach has asked of him. I actually see him as a potential future captain (but that's just my opinion).

--------------------------------------------------------------

Of our "most valuable" assets that would be capable of netting us a #1 (or potential #1) defenseman, the only guys that are left are JVR & Voracek.

JVR: 22 years old, hasn't taken that next step forward like some have wanted, although in fairness, he is injured and before said injury, he had 8g, 16pts in 19 games. The organization still thinks very highly of JVR IMO and they just gave him a giant long-term deal. I think they would be very hesitant to move him, considering all of these factors.

Voracek: 22 years old, was thought of as an underachiever (for his talent level) in Columbus. He seems to have taken that next step here in Philly as he has been amazing on the puck, has worked incredibly hard on the back-check, and on many nights has looked like the best player on the ice (even including G). But, he's an RFA this offseason, the Flyers didn't draft him / have no ties to him, and his value has definitely gone up since acquiring him. If we were to make a trade for a #1, I see him as the most likely piece to be going elsewhere, unfortunately.


------------------------------------------

Looking at everything, I just think it's way, way, way more likely that we acquire a guy like Gleason than someone like Weber or Yandle or OEL or (insert other #1 defenseman here). I just don't see the Flyers as being willing to give up the top-end talent necessary to acquire one of these guys, and rightfully so. We have an excellent young team here... no reason to blow it up (again).

Now if somehow the Predators are out of it and Suter is available @ the deadline as a rental and he commands a normal "rental" price (1st + roster player + mid prospect), then all bets are off about what I said about acquiring a #1. I could see us trading something like 1st + Simmonds + Akeson for Suter.
This is an excellent break down, and very well thought out ! My biggest concern with making a trade is how our clubs "chemistry" will be effected...Sometimes even though a player is not putting up big numbers or is slumping etc, they are strong in the room, and are a stabilizing force to a teams overall identity and chemistry. JVR is one of those players who i think most of us like, and are just waiting and hoping he can become the player he was last season in the play-offs....He was absolutely dominant.I am still giving him the benefit of doubt that he is playing injured and will get rolling along soon.The Chicago game might be what he needed .

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01-07-2012, 08:40 AM
  #60
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I'd trade JVR if Weber is involved.

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01-07-2012, 08:44 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Subban reminds me a bit of MDZ. MDZ was promising, then really bad, and now he's really good. I expect Subban will possibly do something similar.

Maybe.
I agree with this....Subban has all the skills,and at times it seems he would be much better suited as a winger instead of on D.....I have seen him have some really brutal break downs on defense this season especially......But that is part of the process of becoming a legit stud Defenseman in the NHL....Those who make the adjustments and work out the bugs become the big 1st D anchormen in this league.Shenns brother up in Toronto is another one of those players.At times he looks very solid, and then he looks completely lost in the woods.He has all the tools, and i see him becoming much better in due time..

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01-07-2012, 03:31 PM
  #62
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Man that Benn guy certainly isn't better than JVR... 41 points in 40 games being double shifted every game at center.

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01-07-2012, 03:39 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Left Circle OneTimer View Post
Man that Benn guy certainly isn't better than JVR... 41 points in 40 games being double shifted every game at center.
#1 he was taken 129th overall in the draft so apparently no team thought he was that great, not just the flyers

#2 he's getting first line minutes and powerplay minutes

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01-07-2012, 03:53 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by dats81 View Post
One can trade a future first liner for a future first pairing defenseman. Anything less would be a failure.
I wouldn't trade JVR for another potential player, unless it was an absolute stud. I feel he has so much potential, it would be mad at this stage to trade him away for another player who couldn't make an immediate impact greater than his. I know people, rightly, expect a lot from the kid, but I feel he needs more time. He's 21 years of age, give him 2 more years and then see. He has the physical attributrs and with time, he'll develop into a top player. Would be a dumb move at this stage, unless it wsa for a Superstar like Weber.

I've really loved the way Voracek has played, but I feel JVR has more potential

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01-07-2012, 03:55 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by bryzgalovsky View Post
#1 he was taken 129th overall in the draft so apparently no team thought he was that great, not just the flyers

#2 he's getting first line minutes and powerplay minutes
When JVR earns those minutes he'll get them.

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01-07-2012, 04:18 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by bryzgalovsky View Post
#1 he was taken 129th overall in the draft so apparently no team thought he was that great, not just the flyers

#2 he's getting first line minutes and powerplay minutes
Guess that guy Pavel Datsyuk sucks? 171 overall.
Guess that Henrik Zetterberg sucks? 210 overall.

When JvR earns them, he'll be there.


I'd be down for a 2nd/3rd + phantoms body for Gleason.

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01-07-2012, 04:27 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by bryzgalovsky View Post
#1 he was taken 129th overall in the draft so apparently no team thought he was that great, not just the flyers

#2 he's getting first line minutes and powerplay minutes
Do you seriously believe JVR is better than Jamie Benn?

He is the best player on that Stars team and the 1st line center over a guy that has over 70 points in 3 of his last 4 seasons (one being over a ppg) and 53 in the other season where he only played 66 games and over a guy that has back to back 70 point seasons while playing selke caliber defense.

Toews, Backstrom, Jordan Staal, Phil Kessel, Erik Johnson ect are all better than Giroux because they were drafted higher?

Martin St. Louis didn't deserve his Art Ross, Ted Lindsay or Hart (and finalist last year) and Stanley Cup because he wasn't even drafted in his draft?

Datsyuk didn't deserve his 3rd and 4th place scoring finishes, 2 Hart Finalists and 3 Selke trophies because he was drafted 171st?

41 points in 82 games his first year in the league (entered same time as JVR)

56 points in 69 games last year

and now 41 in 40 this year.

All of this while playing on the 3rd line his first 2 years and being great in his own zone and throwing a lot of checks. He already has 81 hits this season. To put that into perspective, Scott Hartnell, who is our teams second leader in hit and leader among forwards, has 83 hits (13 in the winter classic really helped too). JVR has 23. He also has double the amount of blocked shots JVR has.

The guy has a very similiar development curve to Giroux. I don't think he will ever be as good as Giroux and for your sake lets hope hes not.

He is also shooting 11%. When that picks up...

Seriously, take off your blinders.


Last edited by Left Circle OneTimer: 01-07-2012 at 04:33 PM.
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01-07-2012, 05:16 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Philadelphia Ducks View Post
Benn, Couture, Subban, Shattenkirk
what? do you actually think Subban is better than JVR? wow. watch hockey much? have you watched the Habs play at all? Subban is atrocious. Couture is the only guy there i'd take over JVR right now.

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01-07-2012, 05:57 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Left Circle OneTimer View Post
Do you seriously believe JVR is better than Jamie Benn?

He is the best player on that Stars team and the 1st line center over a guy that has over 70 points in 3 of his last 4 seasons (one being over a ppg) and 53 in the other season where he only played 66 games and over a guy that has back to back 70 point seasons while playing selke caliber defense.

Toews, Backstrom, Jordan Staal, Phil Kessel, Erik Johnson ect are all better than Giroux because they were drafted higher?

Martin St. Louis didn't deserve his Art Ross, Ted Lindsay or Hart (and finalist last year) and Stanley Cup because he wasn't even drafted in his draft?

Datsyuk didn't deserve his 3rd and 4th place scoring finishes, 2 Hart Finalists and 3 Selke trophies because he was drafted 171st?

41 points in 82 games his first year in the league (entered same time as JVR)

56 points in 69 games last year

and now 41 in 40 this year.

All of this while playing on the 3rd line his first 2 years and being great in his own zone and throwing a lot of checks. He already has 81 hits this season. To put that into perspective, Scott Hartnell, who is our teams second leader in hit and leader among forwards, has 83 hits (13 in the winter classic really helped too). JVR has 23. He also has double the amount of blocked shots JVR has.

The guy has a very similiar development curve to Giroux. I don't think he will ever be as good as Giroux and for your sake lets hope hes not.

He is also shooting 11%. When that picks up...

Seriously, take off your blinders.
Can you read? He said no one expected Benn to be the player he is now WHEN HE WAS DRAFTED. we all know hes a great player,no one said that.

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01-07-2012, 06:55 PM
  #70
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Can you read? He said no one expected Benn to be the player he is now WHEN HE WAS DRAFTED. we all know hes a great player,no one said that.
I love when people come in to a thread, look at the last post, and then talk crap. Go actually read everything the guy has said in the thread before talking blindly.

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01-07-2012, 08:06 PM
  #71
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I love when people come in to a thread, look at the last post, and then talk crap. Go actually read everything the guy has said in the thread before talking blindly.
Actually, I read the whole thread. No one thought very highly of Benn AT THE DRAFT. Obviously Benn is a better player than JVR. But your whole post was completely irrelevant.

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01-07-2012, 08:13 PM
  #72
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Actually, I read the whole thread. No one thought very highly of Benn AT THE DRAFT. Obviously Benn is a better player than JVR. But your whole post was completely irrelevant.
The guy said that JVR was better than Benn and you obviously did not read the trhead or you would not persist in trying to argue with me. Tell both the mods that they're posts were irrelevant as they basically said the same thing i did albeit in a shorter post. Give it up.

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01-09-2012, 06:46 AM
  #73
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So if you change reality, he looks better?
Good point.

I just want to add that if take away games played on monday when JVR is little more tired then usual his numbers compare to Giroux's even better.

And that doesnt take into account games played on the first thursday after a full moon in which sun sets before 6:36PM which we all know is when JVR plays his best hockey...

LOL in all seriousness, I still like JVR and think he is going to be an 30-35 goal scoring consistenly but with that said, if he is the final piece that gets Weber then I would have to include him...

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01-09-2012, 07:48 AM
  #74
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Some players are more or less effective with more or less TOI. Simply increasing his TOI doesnt statistically translate into more points.

Why not just play Giroux for 60 minutes a night under this theory? If he can score 100 points at 22ish minutes, imagine his production if he never came off the ice?

Oh wait, he'll be tired? He'll become less effective after a certain while? Thats why you can't just massage the numbers. You can argue that JVR may have the conditioning to play 22 effective minutes a night, but how can you be so sure? Could you say with the same assurance that so to would Rinaldo or Shelley, if not, why?

This 'Theory' of yours has many many holes, and is 100% irrelevant.

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