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Realigned!!! [3/7 update: CHI - COL - DAL - MIN - NSH - STL - WPG; NHLPA approves]

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Old
01-06-2012, 10:58 PM
  #751
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Originally Posted by Avder View Post
Tens of millions? I doubt it. All they're doing when they make potential schedules is look at whos arenas are available what nights. They probably do a lot of it by computer with some manual rejiggering to make sure nothing really anomalous comes out like a 12 game home stand or playing the same team 3 games in a row.

We should call up Winnipeg and offer to straight up swap schedules with them next year or something. Would be interesting to play a year in the East.
It takes an entire department of the NHL almost 6 months to make a schedule. It's not just "plug some stuff in a computer and it comes out."

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01-06-2012, 11:09 PM
  #752
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It takes an entire department of the NHL almost 6 months to make a schedule. It's not just "plug some stuff in a computer and it comes out."
This. Most venues start planning concerts, circus and other crap AROUND their main tenants needs and the make sacrifices based on other needs as well. Hence why you can see the X go down for high school state tourneys and such. But if it isn't something annual falling on a given day or week, the Wild are getting dibs. By not letting your arena sell to other entertainment the lease most likely goes up. Hence the importance of selling out of the place or they all lose money. Concessions and sort are based around all of that.

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01-06-2012, 11:46 PM
  #753
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Originally Posted by BigT2002 View Post
This. Most venues start planning concerts, circus and other crap AROUND their main tenants needs and the make sacrifices based on other needs as well. Hence why you can see the X go down for high school state tourneys and such. But if it isn't something annual falling on a given day or week, the Wild are getting dibs. By not letting your arena sell to other entertainment the lease most likely goes up. Hence the importance of selling out of the place or they all lose money. Concessions and sort are based around all of that.
The tourney has better attendance than Wild games

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01-07-2012, 12:31 AM
  #754
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Yep. Stuck in the SE with rediculous travel times for one more season. Absolutely brutal. There are certain teams, (like Minnesota and Winnipeg) that the league has no problem throwing under the bus just to appease the egos out on the east coast.

Lockout here we come.
If the planned realignment can't happen for 12-13, that sucks but oh well. But there is absolutely no excuse for making Winnipeg play in the SE one more season. I don't see why the NHL couldn't have adopted a contingency plan, even if it was a temporary solution out ahead of the master realignment plan.

There are willing volunteers from the West to go East. Nashville makes the most geographical sense for the SE, but if they don't want to deal with the ET, fine. Columbus might prefer the Atlantic, but I'm sure they would settle for the Southeast. If they can't work it out, then I even like the suggestion to swap directly w/ Minnesota and let the Wild take their crack at the SE for one season. Our travel wouldn't be anymore messed up than what it is right now.

Seriously, this should be an easy short term fix under the current division format which leaves everyone happier than the current setup:

*Columbus to SE
*Winnipeg to NW
*Dallas probably gets first dibs at the Central (because screw Minnesota), but that will only work if Colorado is agreeable to the Pacific. If not, then the Wild get the nod, tough nuts for at least one more season, Dallas.

Hopefully things will come together and Dallas, Winnipeg, and Minnesota are all in the Central soon enough.

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01-07-2012, 12:41 AM
  #755
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Originally Posted by sushinsky4tsar View Post
If the planned realignment can't happen for 12-13, that sucks but oh well. But there is absolutely no excuse for making Winnipeg play in the SE one more season. I don't see why the NHL couldn't have adopted a contingency plan, even if it was a temporary solution out ahead of the master realignment plan.

There are willing volunteers from the West to go East. Nashville makes the most geographical sense for the SE, but if they don't want to deal with the ET, fine. Columbus might prefer the Atlantic, but I'm sure they would settle for the Southeast. If they can't work it out, then I even like the suggestion to swap directly w/ Minnesota and let the Wild take their crack at the SE for one season. Our travel wouldn't be anymore messed up than what it is right now.

Seriously, this should be an easy short term fix under the current division format which leaves everyone happier than the current setup:

*Columbus to SE
*Winnipeg to NW
*Dallas probably gets first dibs at the Central (because screw Minnesota), but that will only work if Colorado is agreeable to the Pacific. If not, then the Wild get the nod, tough nuts for at least one more season, Dallas.

Hopefully things will come together and Dallas, Winnipeg, and Minnesota are all in the Central soon enough.
A short term fix removes the urgency for the real fix. If the league allows a couple of the issues to be resolved, they risk losing the votes for the major realignment.

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01-07-2012, 01:15 AM
  #756
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True, it alleviates a little bit of the pain point. But you're still going to have a big push to get both Minnesota and Dallas in the Central where they belong. Winnipeg ultimately prefers the Central to the NW. Detroit, or Columbus, or both are still upset with the current setup. You still have the Phoenix situation hovering.

There's still plenty of motive and artillery out there for a bigger shakeup. There's no reason Winnipeg has to be screwed over one more season at the hands of the NHLPA's negotiating tactics. Maybe I'm mistaken, but I would think that they would have to be agreeable to more Flames and Oilers, less Panthers, Hurricanes, and border crossings.

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01-07-2012, 10:56 AM
  #757
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I'm still fuming about this. Damn you, Fehr.

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01-07-2012, 10:58 AM
  #758
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I don't think they're going to play under the current alignment next year, because I don't think they're going to play next year. If Fehr's going to hardline on little **** like this––and force some of his constituents to keep playing under an alignment where ****ing Winnipeg is in the Southwest––then a lockout has to pretty much be a certainty.

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01-07-2012, 11:26 AM
  #759
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This pisses me off so much.

Way to tick off every NHL fan just to gain bargaining power.

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01-07-2012, 11:37 AM
  #760
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Originally Posted by llamapalooza View Post
I don't think they're going to play under the current alignment next year, because I don't think they're going to play next year. If Fehr's going to hardline on little **** like this––and force some of his constituents to keep playing under an alignment where ****ing Winnipeg is in the Southwest––then a lockout has to pretty much be a certainty.
I think this is probably a pretty accurate assessment of the Fehr situation.

The guy is just plain toxic to any league he deals with. The NHLPA should have known better than to pick him up. What a complete jackass to pull stuff like this for bargaining power.

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01-07-2012, 01:19 PM
  #761
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Good to see greed trump common sense.

I know I would LOVE to end up paying more for tickets in the future, and I'm sure you all feel the same.

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01-07-2012, 02:05 PM
  #762
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So reading around a bit, the NHLPA was concerned about two things: the bias toward the east regarding playoff format(8/14 make it vs 8/16 in the western conferences) and travel concerns.

Basically what would happen under the new alignment was that the average amount of flying for most teams goes up, namely all the big city teams out east. The large outliers like Winnipeg, Minnesota, Dallas, and other western teams go down in travel but the league average actually goes up, if that makes sense.

the NHLPA was okay with this, if they could see example schedules where they could judge whether or not the increased travel would actually affect the players all that much. The NHL could not provide an example schedule in time with the resources they had, so the NHLPA rejected it.

I still disagree with everything, but now I can see where the NHLPA is coming from.

So basically, the current NW division + Winnipeg + Dallas hates the current and Tampa Bay + Florida hate the new, and the latter pair won. It is beyond dumb.

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01-07-2012, 02:10 PM
  #763
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Originally Posted by tyratoku View Post
So reading around a bit, the NHLPA was concerned about two things: the bias toward the east regarding playoff format(8/14 make it vs 8/16 in the western conferences) and travel concerns.

Basically what would happen under the new alignment was that the average amount of flying for most teams goes up, namely all the big city teams out east. The large outliers like Winnipeg, Minnesota, Dallas, and other western teams go down in travel but the league average actually goes up, if that makes sense.

the NHLPA was okay with this, if they could see example schedules where they could judge whether or not the increased travel would actually affect the players all that much. The NHL could not provide an example schedule in time with the resources they had, so the NHLPA rejected it.

I still disagree with everything, but now I can see where the NHLPA is coming from.

So basically, the current NW division + Winnipeg + Dallas hates the current and Tampa Bay + Florida hate the new, and the latter pair won. It is beyond dumb.
To think it would be reasonable to make up an "example" schedule on a whim like that, and potentially not even use it, is a dramatic undervaluing of how incredibly complex a problem schedule construction is. And I'm just talking about it from a computational/mathematical complexity standpoint, not even factoring in the various human elements each team imposes. So either they're idiots who don't understand their own scheduling process, or they're using an unreasonable demand as an excuse to establish themselves as obstructionists, to give them negotiating power later. From what I know of Fehr, I'm pretty confident it's the latter.

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01-07-2012, 02:46 PM
  #764
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Originally Posted by llamapalooza View Post
To think it would be reasonable to make up an "example" schedule on a whim like that, and potentially not even use it, is a dramatic undervaluing of how incredibly complex a problem schedule construction is. And I'm just talking about it from a computational/mathematical complexity standpoint, not even factoring in the various human elements each team imposes. So either they're idiots who don't understand their own scheduling process, or they're using an unreasonable demand as an excuse to establish themselves as obstructionists, to give them negotiating power later. From what I know of Fehr, I'm pretty confident it's the latter.
It's just political posturing. Never admit to your motives if you can avoid it.

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01-07-2012, 04:20 PM
  #765
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Basically what would happen under the new alignment was that the average amount of flying for most teams goes up, namely all the big city teams out east. The large outliers like Winnipeg, Minnesota, Dallas, and other western teams go down in travel but the league average actually goes up, if that makes sense.
Doesn't surprise me that the average travel time for the league would go up (probably by a relatively small amount). Under the new plan every team plays at least one home-away with every other team in the league. The Atlantic and NE would actually have to travel a little more.

If the PA is really using the argument that overall travel goes up as one of a reasons for nixing this, they are being disingenuous (shocking ... I know). Any discussion of travel time should include the starting point (i.e. acknowledging the huge disparity that currently exists in favor of the Atlantic and NE divisions) and changes in time zones. Look at the NE, three teams in the NY metro area, Philly less than 100 miles from NY, and Pittsburgh about 375 miles from NY. Basically these guys only spend a few nights each year away from home. And they don't have to go through the PIA of going through customs that often when they do travel.

The other argument I see that the PA is offering is the bias of the playoff format in favor of the East. My first reaction to the proposed playoff format was that the league was giving the East an incentive to get them on board. Perhaps the league made a mistake by not making this two separate issues for the PA to approve or decline. Can't the playoff format be negotiated separately from the issue of realignment?

In the end I view this simply as the PA telling the Board of Governors that the players run the league, not the BoG.

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01-07-2012, 04:26 PM
  #766
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Doesn't surprise me that the average travel time for the league would go up (probably by a relatively small amount). Under the new plan every team plays at least one home-away with every other team in the league. The Atlantic and NE would actually have to travel a little more.

If the PA is really using the argument that overall travel goes up as one of a reasons for nixing this, they are being disingenuous (shocking ... I know). Any discussion of travel time should include the starting point (i.e. acknowledging the huge disparity that currently exists in favor of the Atlantic and NE divisions) and changes in time zones. Look at the NE, three teams in the NY metro area, Philly less than 100 miles from NY, and Pittsburgh about 375 miles from NY. Basically these guys only spend a few nights each year away from home. And they don't have to go through the PIA of going through customs that often when they do travel.

The other argument I see that the PA is offering is the bias of the playoff format in favor of the East. My first reaction to the proposed playoff format was that the league was giving the East an incentive to get them on board. Perhaps the league made a mistake by not making this two separate issues for the PA to approve or decline. Can't the playoff format be negotiated separately from the issue of realignment?

In the end I view this simply as the PA telling the Board of Governors that the players run the league, not the BoG.
Welcome, and great post!

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01-07-2012, 04:31 PM
  #767
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Originally Posted by Teddy10Beers View Post
Doesn't surprise me that the average travel time for the league would go up (probably by a relatively small amount). Under the new plan every team plays at least one home-away with every other team in the league. The Atlantic and NE would actually have to travel a little more.

If the PA is really using the argument that overall travel goes up as one of a reasons for nixing this, they are being disingenuous (shocking ... I know). Any discussion of travel time should include the starting point (i.e. acknowledging the huge disparity that currently exists in favor of the Atlantic and NE divisions) and changes in time zones. Look at the NE, three teams in the NY metro area, Philly less than 100 miles from NY, and Pittsburgh about 375 miles from NY. Basically these guys only spend a few nights each year away from home. And they don't have to go through the PIA of going through customs that often when they do travel.

The other argument I see that the PA is offering is the bias of the playoff format in favor of the East. My first reaction to the proposed playoff format was that the league was giving the East an incentive to get them on board. Perhaps the league made a mistake by not making this two separate issues for the PA to approve or decline. Can't the playoff format be negotiated separately from the issue of realignment?

In the end I view this simply as the PA telling the Board of Governors that the players run the league, not the BoG.
This can't be overstated. The PA is supposed to represent the players' interests, and they really, really just dicked over about a quarter to a third of their members (entire NW division, WPG, Dallas, ...) because it would have pretty dramatically improved those players' working conditions.

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01-07-2012, 08:04 PM
  #768
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Originally Posted by llamapalooza View Post
This can't be overstated. The PA is supposed to represent the players' interests, and they really, really just dicked over about a quarter to a third of their members (entire NW division, WPG, Dallas, ...) because it would have pretty dramatically improved those players' working conditions.
Just watched hot stove on hockey night in Canada and the said that 2 teams from the players voted for it: Detroit and Columbus. That means the wild players voted against... Why would they do that? Stupid

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01-07-2012, 08:19 PM
  #769
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Just watched hot stove on hockey night in Canada and the said that 2 teams from the players voted for it: Detroit and Columbus. That means the wild players voted against... Why would they do that? Stupid
Whoa, I can't believe every Wild player voted against..

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01-07-2012, 08:27 PM
  #770
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Just watched hot stove on hockey night in Canada and the said that 2 teams from the players voted for it: Detroit and Columbus. That means the wild players voted against... Why would they do that? Stupid
Wild player. Singular.

Each team has one player rep. For the Wild I believe that's Schultz.

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01-07-2012, 08:39 PM
  #771
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Just another reason to be dissatisfied with Schultz

I just cant believe this ****.

Another year stuck in the NorthWorst.

That's assuming we get NHL hockey next year.

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01-07-2012, 08:39 PM
  #772
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Whoa, I can't believe every Wild player voted against..

two options to me, one Shultzie voted the way Fehr wanted, or two he polled the Wild players and majority went against.

i have a ****ing hard time believing that every guy who has traveled this year would try to shoot this down, my guess is this was a PA ploy to try and start **** or flex their muscle, either way

WRONG TIME, WRONG BATTLE, WRONG TOPIC, imho, if they had approved this it would have sent a reassuring message tot he fans that the players want to have a civil negotiation, but now we have to wonder what they will be up to, if they are going to believe that like BAseball Fehr can get them an awesome deal, and he won't because a lockout will set this game back a good 15 years.

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01-07-2012, 08:41 PM
  #773
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The Wild may have one rep, but he didn't vote as a single. He went with the general consensus of the team. Of which, I would presume the PA recommended to all the players that they should vote against any approval until all of their "questions" get resolved.

Lockout is all but certain with Donald Fehr running the show. I just hope these guys don't forget what happened just a few years ago.

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01-07-2012, 08:52 PM
  #774
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The Wild may have one rep, but he didn't vote as a single. He went with the general consensus of the team. Of which, I would presume the PA recommended to all the players that they should vote against any approval until all of their "questions" get resolved.

Lockout is all but certain with Donald Fehr running the show. I just hope these guys don't forget what happened just a few years ago.
The only certainty is that there won't be a work stoppage. The players know how badly they were hurt the last time, and they have absolutely no incentive to strike. Likewise, the owners know how devastating another work stoppage would be, and while they'll push hard for a better revenue split, they aren't stupid (like the NBA owners) and will not allow games to be missed.

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01-07-2012, 08:56 PM
  #775
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The only certainty is that there won't be a work stoppage. The players know how badly they were hurt the last time, and they have absolutely no incentive to strike. Likewise, the owners know how devastating another work stoppage would be, and while they'll push hard for a better revenue split, they aren't stupid (like the NBA owners) and will not allow games to be missed.
I dont share your optimism on this. Fehr is very very hard line. If he is given any part in the say on how things go, he will either drag the PA into striking, or tick off the owners enough that they declare it a lockout.

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