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Seriously, how long can Lombardi sit back

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Old
01-08-2012, 11:01 AM
  #51
Buddy The Elf
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What the hell is a trade for offense going to do? Maybe it will bump the Kings up to 28th in scoring. I like that when Sutter was hired people thought the Kings would start scoring more. Sutter's history suggests otherwise. I'm losing faith in DL and quickly. The biggest problem with this team is a lack of heart. I'd rather see them make a trade for a forward that plays with heart before a goal scorer. A goal scorer would be wasted and at least maybe a heart and soul guy could get these guys to start battling.

I'd be pissed if the Kings gave up a ransom to get a guy like Iginla. That is just trying to polish a turd. Something needs to be changed with the team whether it is the GM, the coach, the personnel or a combination of all three. Everyone recognizes that these guys are underachieving. Maybe that is a coincidence. Maybe it isn't.

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Originally Posted by Face Wash View Post
No creativity...no chances being taken offensively...no traffic in front...no goals. Sorry folks, we've been sold a bill of goods by Lombardi. This is the most boring, frustrating team in franchise history. A trade is not going to help them unless they get Tommy Holmstrom (pipe dream). They're clearly coached not to take chances offensively that will hurt them on the defensive side of the puck. The hiring of Sutter is a microcosm of Lombardi's style. Instead of taking a chance on a young coach, he keeps this boring, plodding slowdown approach that will get them no where in the long run. Lombardi is hardly a chance taker. I'm thoroughly unimpressed with the job Lombardi is doing and frankly they've got to stop interviewing Sutter for TV. He comes off as a complete dimwit. Whether he knows the game or not he sounds like Rocky Balboa on downers, further adding to the frustration of watching this team play.
I agree with everything you said.

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Originally Posted by lakings41 View Post
Sums it up perfectly!

I've given away most of my tickets this year and it obviously won't stop. This team is ****ing pathetic! Lots of hard earned money goes into these guys and for what? So, I can fall asleep at a hockeey game.....unheard of!
My buddy fell asleep on the couch yesterday mid-game. True story.

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01-08-2012, 11:33 AM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
What the hell is a trade for offense going to do? Maybe it will bump the Kings up to 28th in scoring. I like that when Sutter was hired people thought the Kings would start scoring more. Sutter's history suggests otherwise. I'm losing faith in DL and quickly. The biggest problem with this team is a lack of heart. I'd rather see them make a trade for a forward that plays with heart before a goal scorer. A goal scorer would be wasted and at least maybe a heart and soul guy could get these guys to start battling.

I'd be pissed if the Kings gave up a ransom to get a guy like Iginla. That is just trying to polish a turd. Something needs to be changed with the team whether it is the GM, the coach, the personnel or a combination of all three. Everyone recognizes that these guys are underachieving. Maybe that is a coincidence. Maybe it isn't.



I agree with everything you said.



My buddy fell asleep on the couch yesterday mid-game. True story.
welcome to the darkside buddy.

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01-08-2012, 11:39 AM
  #53
Buddy The Elf
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Just a sampling of how much other teams spend on their defense:

$17.96M Bruins

$20.816M Blackhawks

$19.067 Sharks

$20.908M Red Wings

$18.831M Penguins

$24.328M Flyers

$13.887M Rangers

$20.25M Vancouver

--------------------------------

$23.36M Kings

Analysis: The Kings spend too much on defense. I haven't looked but I bet the Kings group is the lowest scoring of the lot too.

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01-08-2012, 11:40 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by tomd View Post
welcome to the darkside buddy.
You mean objectivity? I've been critical of DL in the past on many occasions. You were probably just on a hiatus of sorts at that point. In recent memory, I was not happy with the Darryl Sutter hiring.

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01-08-2012, 12:01 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
Just a sampling of how much other teams spend on their defense:

$17.96M Bruins

$20.816M Blackhawks

$19.067 Sharks

$20.908M Red Wings

$18.831M Penguins

$24.328M Flyers

$13.887M Rangers

$20.25M Vancouver

--------------------------------

$23.36M Kings

Analysis: The Kings spend too much on defense. I haven't looked but I bet the Kings group is the lowest scoring of the lot too.
Part of that is that the Kings have to spend that much money on defense. Scuderi and Mitchell, almost $7 million between them, aren't signing here unless they get the money. Doughty's $7 million is an eyesore, only eclipsed by his play on the ice for the most part. Johnson's salary isn't too bad, except when he goes 30 games with a handful of points. Greene makes too much for what he does, but if not him, the Kings would've had to give a Scuderi/Mitchell type of free agent more than they gave Greene.

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01-08-2012, 12:06 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by KingsFan7824 View Post
Part of that is that the Kings have to spend that much money on defense. Scuderi and Mitchell, almost $7 million between them, aren't signing here unless they get the money. Doughty's $7 million is an eyesore, only eclipsed by his play on the ice for the most part. Johnson's salary isn't too bad, except when he goes 30 games with a handful of points. Greene makes too much for what he does, but if not him, the Kings would've had to give a Scuderi/Mitchell type of free agent more than they gave Greene.
Agreed,

And to be honest, the Kings defense, I would put 1-7, as best in the league, hands down,

And we are spending what, 5-6 million over what other top teams are?

I am ok with that.

The problem isn't that we are spending 23 M on defense....

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01-08-2012, 12:16 PM
  #57
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Of all active goalies with over 30 games played [Quick has 37] Second in TOI [2,084.48], and he leads the NHL in GA [67], GAA [1.93], SV% [934], and SOs [6].

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01-08-2012, 12:20 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
Agreed,

And to be honest, the Kings defense, I would put 1-7, as best in the league, hands down,

And we are spending what, 5-6 million over what other top teams are?

I am ok with that.

The problem isn't that we are spending 23 M on defense....
I'm not suggesting that is the problem but was merely making an observation. With the type of money the Kings spend, the SHOULD have the best defense in the league and maybe the opposite is true of the offense but I know there is no way in hell they are spending in the bottom third of the league on that either. I guess I'll have to do a little more number crunching but I bet the Kings aren't getting their best bang for their buck on defense as far as offensive production goes which is (presumably) contributing to the overall problem of scoring goals.

People around here were all gung ho about giving Doughty whatever he wanted and are probably starting to see why that wasn't the best idea. Drew is not earning his paycheck. He just one of the many underachievers on this year's roster.

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01-08-2012, 12:23 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
What the hell is a trade for offense going to do? Maybe it will bump the Kings up to 28th in scoring.......Sutter's history suggests otherwise.
Um, I don't know. Maybe they score 2 Goals yesterday and win a game. The Defense is there, man, look at my last post. Quick is a madman for sure but our defense deserves some of that credit, overpaid or not. You get a third line forward and a top line LW that can actually create chances and put the puck in the net both at ES and PPand maybe you win some of these damn games, and guess what, if it only takes us to get to 28th in scoring with the defense and goalie was have to get us into the playoffs then we will be alright. This team, defensively, is built for the playoffs imho. Check this out; go back and look at that quote I stole from dana earlier in this thread and combine it with Quick's numbers that I just posted and add to that 2 goals a game FOR the kings and then hypothesize on what the Kings record would be right now if we had minimal scoring. Just spitballing here, man.

Sutter's history includes anemic offenses that is a fact but in my recollection none of which were overall last in scoring, so any improvement on that is, well, an improvement, yeah?

Then again I guess we can just fire Kompon and Lombardi and start all over again, eh? I think I'd prefer to try it my way first.


Last edited by Hatter: 01-08-2012 at 12:29 PM.
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01-08-2012, 12:24 PM
  #60
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Drew is clearly not having his best year to date but he is young and for us to expect him to be a Norris candidate every year from 18 to 25 isn't realistic either. He is still way above average and has been playing better over the past few weeks. I see him picking it up and having a strong second half. There isn't anything that shows DD no longer being capable of becoming a HOF dman. Kid is still so young.

I agree with what you are saying somewhat about our O Buddy.

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01-08-2012, 12:27 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatter View Post
Um, I don't know. Maybe they score 2 Goals yesterday and win a game. The Defense is there, man, look at my last post. Quick is a madman for sure but our defense deserves some of that credit, overpaid or not. You get a third line forward and a top line LW that can actually create chances and put the puck in the net both at ES and PPand maybe you win some of these damn games, and guess what, if it only takes us to get to 28th in scoring with the defense and goalie was have to get us into the playoffs then we will be alright. This team, defensively, is built for the playoffs imho. Check this out; go back and look at that quote I stole from dana earlier in this thread and combine it with Quick's numbers that I just posted and add to that 2 goals a game FOR the kings and then hypothesize on what the Kings record would be right now if we had minimal scoring. Just spitballing here, man.

Then again I guess we can just fire Kompon and Lombardi and start all over again, eh? I think I'd prefer to try it my way first.
SO what you are saying is that we need our O to be playing as well as our D and our Goalies, right?

I thought the idea of our having a balanced attack was LOL?

So...... Our having a balanced attack is a good idea and that is what is missing then.

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01-08-2012, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
I'm not suggesting that is the problem but was merely making an observation. With the type of money the Kings spend, the SHOULD have the best defense in the league and maybe the opposite is true of the offense but I know there is no way in hell they are spending in the bottom third of the league on that either. I guess I'll have to do a little more number crunching but I bet the Kings aren't getting their best bang for their buck on defense as far as offensive production goes which is (presumably) contributing to the overall problem of scoring goals.

People around here were all gung ho about giving Doughty whatever he wanted and are probably starting to see why that wasn't the best idea. Drew is not earning his paycheck. He just one of the many underachievers on this year's roster.
I don't think anyone can argue the Kings are getting decent production out of their blueline

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01-08-2012, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
I don't think anyone can argue the Kings are getting decent production out of their blueline
The Kings are getting a plenty of goals from their defense.

The Kings are tied for 3rd in goals by defensemen at 21. Only Detroit (28) and Vancouver (24) have more.


Last edited by Sydor25: 01-08-2012 at 12:43 PM.
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01-08-2012, 12:42 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
The Kings are getting a decent amount of goals from their defense, but not a lot of points. This shows that the Kings don't get a lot of goals in transition from their D to their forwards. Having a 29th ranked PP also hurts for defensemen assists/points.
I was thinking about that as I was typing, not good production, but if you look, Johnson has a few GWG, Doughty just had one, Mitchell, Greene, and Scuderi all have scored, Voynov has 4,

So goals wise yes, points wise no, and I think that goes back to transitioning from offense to defense, and the powerplay.

5 on 5 offense be damned, you fix the powerplay, get it at somewhere where it should be, and you add at the minimum, an average of anywhere from .5 to a full goal per game...

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01-08-2012, 12:43 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatter View Post
Um, I don't know. Maybe they score 2 Goals yesterday and win a game. The Defense is there, man, look at my last post. Quick is a madman for sure but our defense deserves some of that credit, overpaid or not. You get a third line forward and a top line LW that can actually create chances and put the puck in the net both at ES and PPand maybe you win some of these damn games, and guess what, if it only takes us to get to 28th in scoring with the defense and goalie was have to get us into the playoffs then we will be alright. This team, defensively, is built for the playoffs imho. Check this out; go back and look at that quote I stole from dana earlier in this thread and combine it with Quick's numbers that I just posted and add to that 2 goals a game FOR the kings and then hypothesize on what the Kings record would be right now if we had minimal scoring. Just spitballing here, man.

Sutter's history includes anemic offenses that is a fact but in my recollection none of which were overall last in scoring, so any improvement on that is, well, an improvement, yeah?

Then again I guess we can just fire Kompon and Lombardi and start all over again, eh? I think I'd prefer to try it my way first.
Ok and I'm cool with a small move for a third liner. I even mentioned that in my post that you didn't quote. I'm against the Iginla or Nash type moves which are going to cost the Kings a lot and probably not change a whole lot. They aren't going to bring the Kings a Cup this year, I'll put it that way. The Iginla move is something DL would do to save his job and hurt the franchise in the long run while yield minimal gains in the short term.

I recognize that a little more offense could help this team this year but this team doesn't look like it is a player a way from competing for a Cup. They are a player a way from making the playoffs which is downright pathetic in my opinion. And defense is wonderful but as I and others have pointed out many times, the Cup winners since the lock out all have had top ten offenses (top 7 i believe, actually) but that isn't the case for defense. The Kings need to make a change to their personnel, coach or system to become a more offensive team if they want to win a Cup. That is just the way it is. Sure maybe a team can win a Cup without a top 10 offense but I doubt the 30th, 28th or whatever we realistically can expect the Kings to rank offensively is going to win a Cup. That is the goal right?

EDIT: I also disagree with your premise that if the Kings fire Kompon and DL that they have to start over. There are plenty of good building blocks on the team. The Kings just need the right guys to take it to the next level because I don't know that DL is the guy. He fired his coach and hired the same guy with a little more personality and a history of holding players accountable. Those are two nice traits but the Kings biggest need is to score goals. If the Kings don't score goals, they will continue to lose or be mediocre. Organizationally, they need to start sacrificing some defense to score more goals. That is how the rest of the league is winning games and why Lombardi et al seem to acknowledge this, they don't seem to be doing anything about it.

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01-08-2012, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
I was thinking about that as I was typing, not good production, but if you look, Johnson has a few GWG, Doughty just had one, Mitchell, Greene, and Scuderi all have scored, Voynov has 4,

So goals wise yes, points wise no, and I think that goes back to transitioning from offense to defense, and the powerplay.

5 on 5 offense be damned, you fix the powerplay, get it at somewhere where it should be, and you add at the minimum, an average of anywhere from .5 to a full goal per game...
The Kings are beyond just adding a .5 goal per game, they need a full goal extra per game.

Do you agree that the Kings have been built exactly as Dean wants? Do you think he has compromised at all? Getting the Kings to 25th in offense isn't exactly something that they should be striving for. It should be for a top 10 offense and defense.

I think AEG just let Dean dig his own grave with the Sutter hire and keeping the assistants that have the Kings at the bottom of the league in offense for 2 straight years. I think people forget that Stevens wasn't with the Kings when they had a good PP and finished 9th in total offense.

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01-08-2012, 12:52 PM
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The Kings are beyond just adding a .5 goal per game, they need a full goal extra per game.

Do you agree that the Kings have been built exactly as Dean wants? Do you think he has compromised at all? Getting the Kings to 25th in offense isn't exactly something that they should be striving for. It should be for a top 10 offense and defense.

I think AEG just let Dean dig his own grave with the Sutter hire and keeping the assistants that have the Kings at the bottom of the league in offense for 2 straight years. I think people forget that Stevens wasn't with the Kings when they had a good PP and finished 9th in total offense.
I think DL built this team exactly the way he wanted to, yes.

I do think however that DL did not expect the offense to go in the toilet.

Look, you have Kopitar, Brown, Williams, all have scored 20-30 goals annually, AT LEAST.

He adds, Richards, Penner, Gagne, all who have scored 20-30 goals annually,

Are you saying he knew the offense would be dismal? I can't agree there.

I think he is telling himself, WTF do I do now, I added all these offensive guys, I have great offensive dmen, I just fired the coach, holy hell....

I do think a shakeup is in order, I think a minor shakeup has to be done soon, ie, sending Clifford down, trading Martinez, or Drewiske....something, get some kind of new player blood infused.

I wouldn't mind if he goes and send a 4th out for a 38 year old veteran hard ass 3rd/4th liner who comes in and kicks the **** out of the young players....but get something here.

I have no doubt he has been talking, fielding offers, holding off the vultures etc...

Also, in regards to Sutter and the assistants, yea, that was huge mistake, you don't hire a guy and say, here, right the ship, but here are two anchors you have to do it with, that was bush league and the wrong thing to do. Admire his loyalty to guys like Kompon and Stevens, absolutely, but you don't let loyalty shoot you in the balls...

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01-08-2012, 01:05 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
I think DL built this team exactly the way he wanted to, yes.

I do think however that DL did not expect the offense to go in the toilet.
Agreed. I thought the Kings could get into the middle of the pack, but only if Murray and Dean let them play in the middle of the ice. Murray loved his "dot-to-board" play and it got him fired by AEG, I still don't think Dean wanted to fire him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
Look, you have Kopitar, Brown, Williams, all have scored 20-30 goals annually, AT LEAST.

He adds, Richards, Penner, Gagne, all who have scored 20-30 goals annually,

Are you saying he knew the offense would be dismal? I can't agree there.
I agree, I didn't think the Kings would be anywhere near 30th in total offense this season. But I was still afraid of how Murray would play. He didn't change, so the offense didn't either.

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I think he is telling himself, WTF do I do now, I added all these offensive guys, I have great offensive dmen, I just fired the coach, holy hell....
...
But he fired the coach and hired his clone. Dean doesn't think there is anything wrong with how the Kings play. He sees no system issues with generating goals. He is probably happy that the Kings are allowing fewer goals per game. I remember when someone asked Murray about the offense and he talked about how the Kings allowed 4 fewer goals in the same number of games. Didn't mention that the Kings offense was even worse and the Kings differential was worse.

It's similar to what the Flyers did. They signed a goalie that played in a defense first system and thought he would be able to play just as good in front of the Flyers. Instead you have a goalie with a GAA of 3.00 and a SV% of 0.890. Losing Pronger certainly doesn't help their defense, but Bobrovsky is playing okay in front of that defense. He's used to the way the Flyers play.


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01-08-2012, 01:13 PM
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Agreed. I thought the Kings could get into the middle of the pack, but only if Murray and Dean let them play in the middle of the ice. Murray loved his "dot-to-board" play and it got him fired by AEG, I still don't think Dean wanted to fire him.



I agree, I didn't think the Kings would be anywhere near 30th in total offense this season. But I was still afraid of how Murray would play. He didn't change, so the offense didn't either.



But he fired the coach and hired his clone. Dean doesn't think there is anything wrong with how the Kings play. He sees no system issues with generating goals. He is probably happy that the Kings are allowing fewer goals per game. I remember when someone asked Murray about the offense and he talked about how the Kings allowed 4 fewer goals in the same number of games. Didn't mention that the Kings offense was even worse and the Kings differential was worse.
LOL You're gonna love this,

But under Sutter, they are virtually playing the same system, if that's by default from the timing of the hiring, or if he actually does play the same system.

REGARDLESS,

I can't stress this enough, there is a DIFFERENCE, between generating offense, and FINISHING offense, The Kings right now, can generate offense, they can generate good scoring chances, You've seen it in the past 10 games, it can be done, you've seen since Sutter came on board, Brown drive the net, Kopitar drive the net, Williams drive the net, That is a part of Sutter's system change I believe, yesterday they got away from that, but they can still GENERATE offense.

That isn't the problem.

The problem is,

They can't ****ing finish. For whatever reason, mental block, not caring where they are shooting, or their aim just ****ing sucks, they aren't finishing the chances they are getting.

Yes, it's been half a season, but I would be more worried if they weren't generating the chances, they are.

I don't have a way to go back and view the games, maybe someone does and can post how many shots from the house, how many posts they hit, how many GREAT saves the goaltender had to make in the past 10 games,

THAT's a better indicator if a team is actually generating offense or not.

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01-08-2012, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
I can't stress this enough, there is a DIFFERENCE, between generating offense, and FINISHING offense, The Kings right now, can generate offense, they can generate good scoring chances, You've seen it in the past 10 games, it can be done, you've seen since Sutter came on board, Brown drive the net, Kopitar drive the net, Williams drive the net, That is a part of Sutter's system change I believe, yesterday they got away from that, but they can still GENERATE offense.

That isn't the problem.
Let's look at some recent games and where shots are being taken.

Kings shots against Columbus. Look at how many are from the blue line and outside of the dots:



Here is Dallas versus Edmonton. Look at their cluster of shots from the middle, most are below the circles.



Flyers against Ottawa, again with a cluster of shots from the middle, below the circles:



Detroit against Toronto, another cluser of shots from the middle, below the circles.




Canes against Buffalo



Ducks versus NYI, not a lot of shots, but most below the circles and between the dots




Now here is the Kings versus the Canucks, see the cluster of shots from the middle and below the dots? This is why they scored 4 goals against Vancouver. Much fewer taken from the blue line.



Campare to the game against the Coyotes, back outside and no cluster of shots. Blue line shots are back.




I would rather see the Kings get 20-25 shots by working on getting the puck down low and between the dots than see 35+ shots from the point and oustide the dots.

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01-08-2012, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
Let's look at some recent games and where shots are being taken.

Kings shots against Columbus. Look at how many are from the blue line and outside of the dots:



Here is Dallas versus Edmonton. Look at their cluster of shots from the middle, most are below the circles.



Flyers against Ottawa, again with a cluster of shots from the middle, below the circles:



Detroit against Toronto, another cluser of shots from the middle, below the circles.




Canes against Buffalo



Ducks versus NYI, not a lot of shots, but most below the circles and between the dots




Now here is the Kings versus the Canucks, see the cluster of shots from the middle and below the dots? This is why they scored 4 goals against Vancouver. Much fewer taken from the blue line.



Campare to the game against the Coyotes, back outside and no cluster of shots. Blue line shots are back.

lol.

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01-08-2012, 01:53 PM
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lol.
Great contribution.

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01-08-2012, 01:55 PM
  #73
The Black1963
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Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
Great contribution.
Don't go getting bent.

I just thought it was comical that you guys would take it to this level.

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01-08-2012, 01:56 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
Let's look at some recent games and where shots are being taken.

Kings shots against Columbus. Look at how many are from the blue line and outside of the dots:



Here is Dallas versus Edmonton. Look at their cluster of shots from the middle, most are below the circles.



Flyers against Ottawa, again with a cluster of shots from the middle, below the circles:



Detroit against Toronto, another cluser of shots from the middle, below the circles.




Canes against Buffalo



Ducks versus NYI, not a lot of shots, but most below the circles and between the dots




Now here is the Kings versus the Canucks, see the cluster of shots from the middle and below the dots? This is why they scored 4 goals against Vancouver. Much fewer taken from the blue line.



Campare to the game against the Coyotes, back outside and no cluster of shots. Blue line shots are back.




I would rather see the Kings get 20-25 shots by working on getting the puck down low and between the dots than see 35+ shots from the point and oustide the dots.
Do me a favor, edit on which side I am supposed to be looking lmao, it's a small thing but I am at work so a bit distracted...

Actually, if you can post the last 10 KINGS games as well, and what side....

Wait....those are all one teams, and its period, ok....

So which teams are which on the shooting? and I still would love to see the last 10 Kings games if you can,

Thanks,

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Old
01-08-2012, 01:56 PM
  #75
Sydor25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RH63 View Post
Don't go getting bent.

I just thought it was comical that you guys would take it to this level.
Why not? It's the weekend and the wife is out shopping.

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