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General Talk '12 — Finland

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Old
01-09-2012, 05:03 PM
  #51
Needles
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haite View Post
Jori Lehterä broke his leg, and probably won't play anymore this season. We probably won't be seeing him play in Helsinki.
So basically our European centers are basically clear for WHC: Immonen-Kontiola-Kapanen-Kuparinen.

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01-09-2012, 06:39 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Needles View Post
So basically our European centers are basically clear for WHC: Immonen-Kontiola-Kapanen-Kuparinen.
I'd throw Petteri Wirtanen as a candidate into bottom-six mix, otherwise I agree.

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01-11-2012, 03:13 AM
  #53
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Immonen really?

He has been terrible this season.

This is the order I have for centers right now, not taking into consideration availability.

1. M Koivu (50-50 chance on availability)
2. V Filppula (will make play-offs second round, so he is probably out for whole tournament)
3. O Jokinen (said won't play NT, but I think if he was 2nd line center might come)
4. S Koivu (Will most likely make it)
5. Lehterä (Injured)
6. Mi Granlund (will play wing)
7. T Ruutu (will play wing)
8. N Kapanen
9. Kontiola
10. Immonen
11. Kuparinen
12. Wirtanen

So, basically my conclusion for centers is, if M Koivu makes the team, then centers are M koivu - S Koivu - N Kapanen - Kontiola/Wirtanen/Kuparinen or MK - OJ - SK - N Kapanen/Kontiola/Wirtanen/Kuparinen.

If OJ doesn't come and M Koivu isn't available, then Immonen could make the team. Or if OJ doesn't come then MAYBE instead of N Kapanen. And at fourth line he is more than useless. He just doesn't deserve the spot with the way he has played this season.

People who talk about Immonen Granlund chemistry, I think Granlund will do fine with someone else. Especially now that he actually knows how to shoot himself.

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01-11-2012, 03:35 AM
  #54
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The reason Granlund and Immonen have such good chemistry I think is because Immonen is a goal-scoring center, and I don't think we have that many of them. Even though Immonen's stats aren't that impressive this year it would be stupid not to take him on the team. He's always been very good for the NT (including this years Karjala tourney he was great) and besides I don't really trust KHL stats. The game is low tempo and the rinks are the size of airports, personal stats tend to stay quite low in comparison to most leagues.

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01-11-2012, 12:25 PM
  #55
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Jarkko Immonen is one of those players who have really shown their reliability in the NT over the past two or three years. While he really tore it up with Granlund last spring, it's not like he hasn't shown up before, doing the right things. In that sense he's sort of been turning to another Niko Kapanen, whom people also never seem to properly value. A player bigger than his club team stats.

Besides, it's a very one-minded manner in general to assess a player's NT value by solely staring at the way he's been doing in his club squad. It's a different team, different playstyle and a coach who might demand wholly different things.

The bottom line is that despite he's been a bit of a no-show in AK Bars this season (though 0.5 PPG isn't THAT bad), in the current NT composition Immonen is one of the better centres. I might even go as far as to place him in the Top-5, even with every possible man available.


Last edited by FiLe: 01-11-2012 at 12:32 PM.
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01-17-2012, 09:16 PM
  #56
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Oh the thread is restarted now, great. Here are my new lines & roster.

Dream team:
Granlund-Immonen-Filppula
Selanne-S.Koivu-M.Koivu
J.Jokinen-T.Ruutu-Korpikoski
Komarov-Nokelainen-Petrell/Hagman (can't decide)

Bonus forwards: Petrell/Hagman, Pihlström, Leino

Karalahti-Timonen
Vatanen-Niskala
Lydman-Pitkänen
Väänänen-Lepistö

Rinne, Rask, Niemi in this order. I rate Niemi above Lehtonen, but I could be wrong. The guy is a winner don't forget that.

I don't think Mikko would mind playing in the wing if he has the chance to play with Saku. That would make Mikko supermotivated for sure! One of his last & possibly only chances to play with his brother.



Realistic team:
Granlund-Immonen-Selanne
T.Ruutu-S.Koivu-Korpikoski
J.Jokinen-Komarov-Hagman
Pihlström-Nokelainen-Petrell
Extra forwards: Kontiola,Hartikainen, Armia

Karalahti-Pitkänen
Vatanen-Niskala
Lydman-Väänänen
Lepistö-Välivaara
Extra defender:Salmela

Rinne/Lehtonen, backup goalie Rämö

I'd really like to put S.Koivu with 2 tough/physical players. I think any line combination like that would work very well!

I'm sure though that Jalonen will put Peltonen & Aaltonen in the team. Peltonen is fine, but I don't think he has anything else to offer than the leadership.

Also everyone that leaves Karalahti out of the roster is crazy.


Last edited by Mestaruus: 01-17-2012 at 09:39 PM.
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Old
01-20-2012, 09:56 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Mestaruus View Post
I don't think Mikko would mind playing in the wing if he has the chance to play with Saku. That would make Mikko supermotivated for sure! One of his last & possibly only chances to play with his brother.
Strange logic. There's never been nothing wrong with either Koivu's motivation, no matter who else has been on the team. Besides, both are natural centres to a boot. While it's evident that in the modern hockey the shoehorned centre/winger divide isn't as clear-cut as it used to be, I'd still say neither of these will revert to wing unless it's an emergency.

I think Shedden offered the Koivu Bros a chance to play in the same unit back in 2008. Both said "thanks, but no thanks".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mestaruus View Post
Extra forwards: Kontiola,Hartikainen, Armia
Armia certainly has all the raw talent he needs to be a superstar, but not the refinement yet, especially to execute the game plan of someone like Jalonen. Don't get me wrong, I like his heatleylike demeanor, but he still sort of lacks vision. I'd rather see what someone like Pulkkinen could do under a proper coach (in NT, I mean).

Granted, it's not like you placed him straight into the team, but he's still pretty far down on the list even as far as those in consideration go. Would love to see him pull some EHT duty though, if only to see how far off the mark my current analysis of him is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mestaruus View Post
Also everyone that leaves Karalahti out of the roster is crazy.
Bwuh? This season: mediocre stats in a mediocre team. Though again, he's one of the guys I do like and think he might perform quite well especially when compared to those usual lower-tier names Jalonen seems to have a hard-on for, but making statements like these require a LOT of elaboration to buy people over.

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01-21-2012, 11:38 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FiLe View Post
Strange logic. There's never been nothing wrong with either Koivu's motivation, no matter who else has been on the team. Besides, both are natural centres to a boot. While it's evident that in the modern hockey the shoehorned centre/winger divide isn't as clear-cut as it used to be, I'd still say neither of these will revert to wing unless it's an emergency.

I think Shedden offered the Koivu Bros a chance to play in the same unit back in 2008. Both said "thanks, but no thanks".

Armia certainly has all the raw talent he needs to be a superstar, but not the refinement yet, especially to execute the game plan of someone like Jalonen. Don't get me wrong, I like his heatleylike demeanor, but he still sort of lacks vision. I'd rather see what someone like Pulkkinen could do under a proper coach (in NT, I mean).

Bwuh? This season: mediocre stats in a mediocre team. Though again, he's one of the guys I do like and think he might perform quite well especially when compared to those usual lower-tier names Jalonen seems to have a hard-on for, but making statements like these require a LOT of elaboration to buy people over.
I strongly feel Armia>Pulkkinen when we are thinking about men's team. Honestly I think both would be rather invisible, but Armia would be better choise as he's little bit better defensively and Pulkkinen just wont have a top-6 forward spot for this team. I don't want to see our own end leaking. I was also very disappointed on Pulkkinen in U-20. He couldn't be effective vs big countries when we most needed it. If one can't be effective with Granlund then there's a problem and it's hard for me to believe the problem would be Granlund based on what I've seen from him and what kind of consistency. Yea Jalonen needs to give Pulkkinen more EHT games, but maybe Raipe didn't want to let him go earlier this season.

About Karalahti. Ok I might have overhyped him a bit. He maybe shouldn't be in #1 defensive pair in both of my lineps, but there's no way you can leave him out of either the allstar Finland or the realistic team. I see him as same type as Väänänen, but slightly better right now. Also don't forget what kind of leadership he brings to the team.

About Koivu brothers together. You might be right about them not wanting to play on wing, but i'm still surprised if it's really true that they don't want to play together and I do feel they'd find some magic Sedin type chemistry if they did play together. So if that's really the case that they don't want to play together then that changes a lot in my team Finland Allstars offensive lineups. Also i'd never put Saku in the wing. Too small.

V.Filppula-M.Koivu-Ruutu
Granlund-Immonen-Selanne
Hagman-S.Koivu-Korpikoski
Komarov-Nokelainen-J.Jokinen

Bonus forwards: Petrell, Pihlström, Leino


Last edited by Mestaruus: 01-21-2012 at 11:52 AM.
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01-21-2012, 01:36 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FiLe View Post
Armia certainly has all the raw talent he needs to be a superstar, but not the refinement yet, especially to execute the game plan of someone like Jalonen. Don't get me wrong, I like his heatleylike demeanor, but he still sort of lacks vision. I'd rather see what someone like Pulkkinen could do under a proper coach (in NT, I mean).

Granted, it's not like you placed him straight into the team, but he's still pretty far down on the list even as far as those in consideration go. Would love to see him pull some EHT duty though, if only to see how far off the mark my current analysis of him is.
Since December 1st: Joel Armia 10. 7+6=13, Teemu Pulkkinen 11. 5+7=12

Next EHT tournament will be played 9.2 - 12.2. It will be interesting to see for whom Jalonen overlooks these guys this time. I'm guessing he rather wants to "test" guys like Ville Vahalahti & Jani Tuppurainen. Guys who have zero chance to be in WHC team this year or in the future.

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01-21-2012, 02:50 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Mestaruus View Post
Yea Jalonen needs to give Pulkkinen more EHT games, but maybe Raipe didn't want to let him go earlier this season.
No "maybes" here, it's a known fact that U20 staples are tied up with junior duties 'til the WJC is over. What they did with The Stamp was an exception, due to him being crazy awesome as we all know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mestaruus View Post
About Karalahti. Ok I might have overhyped him a bit. He maybe shouldn't be in #1 defensive pair in both of my lineps, but there's no way you can leave him out of either the allstar Finland or the realistic team.
You still didn't say why Karalahti automatically takes preferences over the likes of Väänänen or, say, Passo Puistola who are slightly younger and very familiar with the current system. I'm not saying he's not WHC material (I think he is), but an essential? Hardly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mestaruus View Post
About Koivu brothers together. You might be right about them not wanting to play on wing, but i'm still surprised if it's really true that they don't want to play together and I do feel they'd find some magic Sedin type chemistry if they did play together.
Only because they're ...brothers? C'mon, these two have visible disrepancy between playstyles and in the manner they think about the game minutiae. Besides, they haven't played a regular shift together over their pro careers (apart from maybe some offseason scrimmages). Both are also VERY shoehorned picks to place on wing. So there's really no surprise. If they even after these facts would truly desire to play in a same line simply because they happen to share a bunch of genes, it'd be highly unprofessional of both of 'em. As it is ludicrous for a fan to think so.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Needles View Post
I'm guessing he rather wants to "test" guys like Ville Vahalahti & Jani Tuppurainen. Guys who have zero chance to be in WHC team this year or in the future.
Vahalahti made the 2009 team, he can make it again.

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01-21-2012, 07:06 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by FiLe View Post
You still didn't say why Karalahti automatically takes preferences over the likes of Väänänen or, say, Passo Puistola who are slightly younger and very familiar with the current system. I'm not saying he's not WHC material (I think he is), but an essential? Hardly.
Ok Väänänen seems to have better stats this season plus minus +14 for Väänänen and +1 Karalahti , but Karalahti faces tougher competition. Age difference 5 years, edge goes to Väänänen.

Both have about 40 GP and Väänänen 16pts and Karalahti 12pts. I'd say that's about even, tougher league for Jere and Väänänen has played 4 games less. So it's all based on +- then. I wouldn't say that +- tells everything. Both have leadership qualities but Jere has edge on this imo. It's a matter of taste really. I'd still go with Jere. We need them on same EHT team on the next EHT. Would be interesting what their stats would say if both had about even amount of PP and PK and they played on different defensive pairings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FiLe View Post
Only because they're ...brothers?s
To me Mikko has played good with the national team, but to me it felt like he's done a little bit better on Minnesota. So I want Jalonen to test stuff and this could be something that could work surprisingly well. Anyway fixed my lineups so Saku is in #3 now. I really like my offensive lineups now. Perfect lines for a dream team Finland, don't you agree ?

V.Filppula-M.Koivu-Ruutu
Granlund-Immonen-Selanne
Hagman-S.Koivu-Korpikoski
Komarov-Nokelainen-J.Jokinen

Bonus forwards: Petrell, Pihlström, Leino


Last edited by Mestaruus: 01-21-2012 at 07:14 PM.
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01-21-2012, 08:41 PM
  #62
FiLe
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Originally Posted by Mestaruus View Post
It's a matter of taste really. I'd still go with Jere.
Yeah. Karalahti certainly is a viable candidate, but hasn't shown anything that puts him head and shoulder above the rest. You didn't really need to prove me that since it was something we agreed on from the beginning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mestaruus View Post
Perfect lines for a dream team Finland, don't you agree ?
I've seen worse, I'll give you that. Okay, it's pretty agreeable actually as far as a fantasy roster goes.

I'd still flip Selänne and Korpikoski around though. And no, not due to this age-old case of "Saku and Teemu having super-duper chemistry", but more like not to mess the one Granlund and Immonen are developing. See, those two have a real nice double act going and one of the key elements which has allowed that is that the third link (Pesonen) is no show-stealer but more like a balancing player who's there when required but never the sole go-to-guy. Korpedo certainly fits that mold better than the Flash.

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01-22-2012, 10:40 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by FiLe View Post
Yeah. Karalahti certainly is a viable candidate, but hasn't shown anything that puts him head and shoulder above the rest. You didn't really need to prove me that since it was something we agreed on from the beginning.

I've seen worse, I'll give you that. Okay, it's pretty agreeable actually as far as a fantasy roster goes.

I'd still flip Selänne and Korpikoski around though. And no, not due to this age-old case of "Saku and Teemu having super-duper chemistry", but more like not to mess the one Granlund and Immonen are developing. See, those two have a real nice double act going and one of the key elements which has allowed that is that the third link (Pesonen) is no show-stealer but more like a balancing player who's there when required but never the sole go-to-guy. Korpedo certainly fits that mold better than the Flash.
Yeah i agree on Pesonen being or has been good with Granlund & Immonen. Many ignorant people didn't want to give Pesonen any credit for that in the last WC, but i'm not one of those. Yeah my only concern is missing that balancing player when we got Selanne-Granlund-Immonen. It's worth trying though, i'm sure all Finns would want to see how that line would perform and if it doesn't work Jalonen can quickly put Teemu with Saku. Also i'd like Granlund & Immonen have a proper maskman on PP like T.Ruutu (best in Finland at that?).

I'd personally like to find a way where we dont have to mix the lines each time for PP from the normal. What makes it tricky is I'd want Hagman to be in 1 of those PP lineups if we use the Anaheim trio Saku-Teemu-Hagman line, but then again Hagman is pretty good on PK so we could break this line and bring someone in.

Well yea. PP line ups:
PP#1 Granlund-Immonen-Selanne
PP#2 V.Filppula-M.Koivu-Ruutu

PK#1 Komarov-Nokelainen-J.Jokinen
PK#2 Hagman-S.Koivu-Korpikoski

Normal lineups:
V.Filppula-M.Koivu-Ruutu
Granlund-Immonen-Korpikoski
Hagman-S.Koivu-Selanne


or second option for PP:
PP#1 Selanne-M.Koivu-Filppula
PP#2 Granlund-Immonen-Ruutu (for normal and PP)

Going for 2 killer PP lines could be better like the 'second option'. We might loose some scoring potential with the Teemu-Immonen-Granlund and weaken our second PP too much. Harder for opponent team to put their best PK guys against 1 line, if we split them that is.

But if we do add Korpikoski as the workhorse/maskman in 1 of these lines while T.Ruutu does that in the other line and keep the same lines for PP. Then who is left out?
Korpikoski/Ruutu+Granlund+Immonen
Korpikoski/Ruutu+Selanne+X

If I'd have to choose I'd take Filppula over M.Koivu for that, but is M.Koivu a better center for that line? Who plays the center role best of these 3 Ruutu/M.Koivu/Filppula. Probably M.Koivu? If we needed a winger instead of center i'd go Filppula, eventhough he has played center too (i'm not sure what Filppula plays in Detroit atm, i'm gussing winger?). But leaving a guy that is getting 70 points this season out of 1 of the PP is pretty unheard of so simplest solution --> Don't put Korpi there lol. Selanne+Filppula on same line on PP = drool, though. Well I think i've speculated enough for today .


Last edited by Mestaruus: 01-22-2012 at 11:20 PM.
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01-23-2012, 04:23 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Mestaruus View Post
PK#1 Komarov-Nokelainen-J.Jokinen
PK#2 Hagman-S.Koivu-Korpikoski
Err... wut? Short-handed usually only sees two forwards on ice (plus two D), not a full line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mestaruus View Post
But if we do add Korpikoski as the workhorse/maskman in 1 of these lines while T.Ruutu does that in the other line and keep the same lines for PP.
I'd actually use Hagman.


And in response to your PP combination speculation... if you really have a chance to roll with a loaded team like that with plenty of candidates in several roles, it's really no shame leaving some guys out of PP duty who might regularly see plenty of time on it.

So it becomes a bit like piecing together an elaborate puzzle. Let's start by putting in the obvious guys, you want Granlund+Immonen combo and Selänne, but not necessarily in the same unit. Next, you may want some mask men in, at which stage you're likely to roll out with Ruutu & Hagman. One left, 2nd PP C. It's going to fall between M.Koivu and Flip. The good news are that both are multipurpose forwards very useful on PK as well, so it becomes sort of a coin toss.


Two solutions:

Ruutu - Immonen - Granlund
Hagman - Filppula - Selänne

and

Hagman - Immonen - Granlund
Ruutu - M.Koivu - Selänne


What do you do? Simple, you use 'em both, depending on who the opposition is and what they may have studied. It's just that kind of out-of-the-box hockey thinking our current coach is known for.

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01-24-2012, 10:07 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by FiLe View Post
Err... wut? Short-handed usually only sees two forwards on ice (plus two D), not a full line.
Sorry, looks like i was quite tired back then .

Yea Hagman on PP is actually a good idea too. Hmm i'm not sure if Jalonen would have the balls to leave M.Koivu out of the PP lines. He's afraid of some scandal like the "where is Jussi Jokinen" incident during the olympics . Media wouldn't understand leaving M.Koivu out is my point (because he's the captain and Finland's future and present and all that, Finland's golden boy and little bit overrated at that), eventhough Jalonen would. I mean it took balls to leave J.Jokinen out (respect for that), but I think Jalonen doesn't want another thing like that. It may distract him too much of his actual job - coaching. I'd personally take Filppula over Koivu too if it came down to those 2.

Speaking of which, i'm the first one to say it, Jalonen will cause another "Jussi Jokinen incident" for the selections of this spring's home WC. So the media will be all over Jalonen's ass once again. He'll leave someone like S.Koivu out to pick one of the last year's (new sauna buddies) WC winners or someone else. Understandable if he chooses so, but once again media will crucify him for that and then it's the same thing all over again (ignorant fun media).


Last edited by Mestaruus: 01-24-2012 at 10:25 PM.
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01-25-2012, 03:51 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Mestaruus View Post
Hmm i'm not sure if Jalonen would have the balls to leave M.Koivu out of the PP lines. He's afraid of some scandal like the "where is Jussi Jokinen" incident during the olympics . Media wouldn't understand leaving M.Koivu out is my point (because he's the captain and Finland's future and present and all that, Finland's golden boy and little bit overrated at that), eventhough Jalonen would. I mean it took balls to leave J.Jokinen out (respect for that), but I think Jalonen doesn't want another thing like that. It may distract him too much of his actual job - coaching. I'd personally take Filppula over Koivu too if it came down to those 2.
You know, to be honest, this is down right retarded. Both the concept and the media's (and the general public's) behavior if it actually happened. Sure, I can understand backlash for leaving a player out of the team altogether but are you seriously suggesting that there would be a sh*tstorm if some player didn't play in a certain line or see PP ice time?

And even if somebody would attempt to brew something like that, it would be shot down the second somebody attempted to get a comment from Koivu himself, which would be something along the lines: "So I won't play PP. So what? Now S-T-F-U."

But I honestly doubt it'd come to that. Besides, I don't think a random Finnish spectator's hockey IQ is even high enough to notice such a thing. There are perhaps two players in that fantasy roster who might break that awareness, and they're the Stamp and the Flash.

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01-26-2012, 02:24 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by FiLe View Post
You know, to be honest, this is down right retarded. Both the concept and the media's (and the general public's) behavior if it actually happened. Sure, I can understand backlash for leaving a player out of the team altogether but are you seriously suggesting that there would be a sh*tstorm if some player didn't play in a certain line or see PP ice time?
It probably wont even come to that as we wont get all those players for the WC, but it could happen in olympics that Koivu is left out of the PP, but i highly doubt it, but I still predict some kind of scandal for the WC pickings. Jalonen will make some surprise pick(s) that might be justified picks, but not justified for media/ignorant low IQ audience or something as you put it.

I forgot to add M. Mäenpää for my defenders list and Nummelin. Wonder if Jalonen will pick Nummelin? My guess is he'll pick Nummelin for next EHT and if he does well there he is probably a 100% guaranteed pick for Jalonen, but we have a lot of good offensive defenders so dunno. I just hate the idea of sort of sacrificing our home WC for making it the "good bye" tournament for many players, cause if Jalonen picks too many of them, we can say goodbye to our gold medal hopes. If they couldn't do it in 17 years, they wont help in that now either, but few of them will be ok. Guys like Peltonen shouldn't have any chance of making the team.


Last edited by Mestaruus: 01-26-2012 at 02:35 PM.
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01-26-2012, 11:51 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Mestaruus View Post
but it could happen in olympics that Koivu is left out of the PP
It does not, at least as long as there are six forwards whose preference can be argued. No self-respecting sports journalist will catch on it then and the general public won't pay attention. Sure, there might be griping on message boards like in here or Jatkoaika, but at least thus far whatever the fandom goes on about has been a fart in the wind for the team and its management.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mestaruus View Post
I forgot to add M. Mäenpää for my defenders list and Nummelin. Wonder if Jalonen will pick Nummelin? My guess is he'll pick Nummelin for next EHT and if he does well there he is probably a 100% guaranteed pick for Jalonen, but we have a lot of good offensive defenders so dunno.
Nummelin's having a quite a decent season in Switzerland, he's a PPG player thus far, which is always a good notion for a defenseman of his profile. I'm not against the inclusion of some of these old warhorses as long as it can be justified and the team isn't overloaded with similar players (such as small, offensive-minded defensemen).

Jalonen isn't stupid, and I'm quite certain he's noticed by now that making all the "safe" picks don't equal winning picks. Of course, there's always the risk that some of those old sauna buddies might be pushed in due to executive meddling, but last year's result should cut this down too at least a bit.

Also, Mäenpää is definitely a candidate with what he's been doing, no question there.

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01-27-2012, 03:15 AM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FiLe View Post
Nummelin's having a quite a decent season in Switzerland, he's a PPG player thus far, which is always a good notion for a defenseman of his profile. I'm not against the inclusion of some of these old warhorses as long as it can be justified and the team isn't overloaded with similar players (such as small, offensive-minded defensemen).
Nummelin started the season well and was league top scorer for a while, but he's been struggling with injuries lately and may need to rest once his club season is over. I'm not sure he would be a lock anyway, his hockey sense is still top notch he has lost a lot of quickness in the last few years.

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01-27-2012, 01:46 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FiLe View Post
Also, Mäenpää is definitely a candidate with what he's been doing, no question there.
IIRC, Mäenpää was by far the worst defenseman in Moscow's tournament. Especially defensively. That's what he's been doing.

And I'm getting pretty sick hearing the same names year after year: Nummelin, Karalahti, Mäenpää etc. When Teemu Eronen will get his chance in national team? He's getting better every year and he plays in top pairing. What about Jokipakka? I'm surprised Mikko Kousa was selected to Moscow although he's only 23 years old. Sometimes I feel you have to be at least 27yo if you want to play for Jalonen.

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01-27-2012, 06:29 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Needles View Post
IIRC, Mäenpää was by far the worst defenseman in Moscow's tournament. Especially defensively. That's what he's been doing.
If we look at the team Finland had in Moscow as a whole, it's hard to put too much weight on one man's performance. Especially when he's 2nd in D-man points in all of KHL. Yeah, that's what he's been doing.

And I didn't say by any means that he's a lock, but with showing like that and the fact we're not exactly stacked on quality D-men ATM, he should definitely be in consideration. As are most of the rest of those "same names".

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Originally Posted by Needles View Post
And I'm getting pretty sick hearing the same names year after year: Nummelin, Karalahti, Mäenpää etc. When Teemu Eronen will get his chance in national team? He's getting better every year and he plays in top pairing. What about Jokipakka? I'm surprised Mikko Kousa was selected to Moscow although he's only 23 years old. Sometimes I feel you have to be at least 27yo if you want to play for Jalonen.
Well, at least there's Vatanen. Would probably have been in last years' team if not injured and unless we get every NHL regular we have, will likely be in this year.

And how is Mäenpää one of that "same" bunch? He's a bubbling under player at best who managed to break one WC team on a year when most of the more viable candidates refused. This is actually the first year for him to be in equal contention for what he's done. Currently we have three puck-moving d-men who take preference over everyone else: Timonen, Pitkänen and Niskala (I haven't forgotten about Salo, but something tells me his NT days are over). Unless we have all of those available, it's down to likes of Mäenpää, Nummelin, Karalahti and such. Okay, perhaps Vatanen fits somewhere between these two groups.

What comes to Jokipakka, he has one good WJC under his belt but otherwise he's been pretty mediocre in men's games. Granted, the team he plays in is lousy as well so maybe he should be given a shot but it certainly is understandable if he isn't.

Despite these dissenting opinions, I still agree with you on fundamental level. We need some new, preferably young faces in contention soon. It IS pretty laughable that the current image of a major tournament rookie is a 35-year-old fellow like Välivaara making one exit stage left.

Still... unfortunately there just aren't that many, considering our junior system pretty much botched classes between '85 and '90. Hopefully that should get amended in the next five years. But right now, while we would all love to see some young meat in the mill, we just have to be realists right now. Viable candidates are far and a few between. I guess Eronen is one we can agree on.

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01-27-2012, 09:05 PM
  #72
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Good points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FiLe View Post
If we look at the team Finland had in Moscow as a whole, it's hard to put too much weight on one man's performance. Especially when he's 2nd in D-man points in all of KHL. Yeah, that's what he's been doing.
Well, Mäenpää was the captain so maybe we should? IIRC, he lost his man many times and was heavily criticized by Canal's studio. Especially Mika Kortelainen.

I don't think you should put too much weight on numbers though. Mikko Lehtonen was of fire last year in Elitserien. He was scoring goals left and right. But he sucked at EHT and that was it. Same can happen to Mäenpää. Let's wait and see.

Quote:
Currently we have three puck-moving d-men who take preference over everyone else: Timonen, Pitkänen and Niskala (I haven't forgotten about Salo, but something tells me his NT days are over). Unless we have all of those available, it's down to likes of Mäenpää, Nummelin, Karalahti and such. Okay, perhaps Vatanen fits somewhere between these two groups.
In Jalonen's system, you need 4 PP defensemen and 4 PK defensemen. Mäenpää is an offensive dman, there's no question about that. Right now (IMO) Vatanen and Niskala are the best finnish (offensive) dmen in Europe. Two spots left, right? Then there's Anssi Salmela, a world champion. I find it very unlikely that Jalonen would select Mäenpää over Salmela. There's one spot left and Mäenpää has to compete against guys like Heikkinen & Kousa, who were clearly better in Moscow. Then there's wildcards like Nummelin and Pitkänen, so it doesn't look very good for Mäenpää.

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01-27-2012, 11:26 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Needles View Post
IIRC, Mäenpää was by far the worst defenseman in Moscow's tournament. Especially defensively. That's what he's been doing.
I agree with that, but he seems to be playing better with his KHL team so I hope we see him on the next EHT. Next monday they said the list will be published (said Jari Kurri on MTV3).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Needles View Post
In Jalonen's system, you need 4 PP defensemen and 4 PK defensemen. Mäenpää is an offensive dman, there's no question about that. Right now (IMO) Vatanen and Niskala are the best finnish (offensive) dmen in Europe. Two spots left, right? Then there's Anssi Salmela, a world champion. I find it very unlikely that Jalonen would select Mäenpää over Salmela. There's one spot left and Mäenpää has to compete against guys like Heikkinen & Kousa, who were clearly better in Moscow. Then there's wildcards like Nummelin and Pitkänen, so it doesn't look very good for Mäenpää.
We'll probably get a lot of answers next EHT regarding this. Hopefully Jalonen picks all of these guys.


Last edited by Mestaruus: 01-27-2012 at 11:32 PM.
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01-28-2012, 10:38 AM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Needles View Post
Well, Mäenpää was the captain so maybe we should? IIRC, he lost his man many times and was heavily criticized by Canal's studio. Especially Mika Kortelainen.

I don't think you should put too much weight on numbers though. Mikko Lehtonen was of fire last year in Elitserien. He was scoring goals left and right. But he sucked at EHT and that was it. Same can happen to Mäenpää. Let's wait and see.
I'd still say one three-game tournament isn't enough to put much weight on his total value, captain or not. Especially since the forementioned system is quite different from what they used last time Mäenpää donned the national jersey and could take some time to adopt.

Lehtonen isn't a comparable example (at least yet) since he had a chance to show his worth in a total of three EHTs over one season, and pretty much tanked in them all. So yeah. Right now, Mäenpää's in contention but you're right, we need to see more of him to call him a staple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Needles View Post
In Jalonen's system, you need 4 PP defensemen and 4 PK defensemen. Mäenpää is an offensive dman, there's no question about that. Right now (IMO) Vatanen and Niskala are the best finnish (offensive) dmen in Europe. Two spots left, right? Then there's Anssi Salmela, a world champion. I find it very unlikely that Jalonen would select Mäenpää over Salmela. There's one spot left and Mäenpää has to compete against guys like Heikkinen & Kousa, who were clearly better in Moscow. Then there's wildcards like Nummelin and Pitkänen, so it doesn't look very good for Mäenpää.
Jalonen has no single system. Instead it's quite dependent on the material he has available. Last year he said he wanted to use them because not all the players were used to big minutes on this level and he didn't want to exhaust them. Between the lines, that pretty much reads he was full aware that some of his guys were prone to mental relapses and wanted to minimize them happening by evening out the TOI.

Last year our top pair, Salmela-Lepistö consisted of fringe players in their club teams who ought to have considered themselves lucky if they saw ten minutes of ice a night. Välivaara was and is a 2nd tier pick so Niskala was pretty much the only one capable of pulling big nights.
It was more a happenstance than anything else that Jalonen decided to ice that 4OD + 4DD combo. If he has other big-nighters available this time round, he might go back to three-pair-rotation. Yeah, I'm mainly thinking NHL guys like Pitkänen or Timonen (and Vatanen, Niskala in Europe) but Mäenpää currently averages 25 minutes a night in Amur so he's got that running for him.

Salmela is nothing overly special offensively, world champ or not. Still, he's able to hold his ground on WHC level and is actually more multipurpose compared to Mäenpää which I certainly consider advantageous. But if you need someone to fill a pure OD role, they're head-to-head in my book.

It's funny how lengthy this debate got considering I simply mentioned Mäenpää as somebody who is merely an option, not somebody who should get a ticket right now. He certainly isn't in that group I figure looks (realistically) ideal at the moment. That consists of Pitkänen, Lydman, Niskala, Vatanen, Väänänen, Puistola and Salmela (I'm sorry, Jere). NHL/AHL playoffs might bring even more guys such as Lepistö and Laakso into contention. And in case of not getting some of those seven, there's a good group of 2nd tier d-men to pick from, Mäenpää among them. Not a forerunner by any means but still not someone to be snubbed over lightly, at least not yet.


Last edited by FiLe: 01-28-2012 at 10:43 AM.
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01-30-2012, 04:55 AM
  #75
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http://www.lippu.fi/mm2012-Lippuja.h...ts&erid=566703

Single game round robin tickets for this year's games now available.

156 euros minimum for any Finland game and top-7 matchup, 70 euros minimum for the rest. That's... highway robbery.

To offer a comparison, in Sweden 100 euros buys you a four-game package with at least one Tre Kronor game.


Maikkari botching these games on TV and now FIHA on-site... whatever extra enthusiasm I had of these games being on home soil is now pretty much dead.

I'll still be watching them of course, but hardly with any more glee than any other WHC.



And oh, the next EHT squad is out as well: http://yle.fi/urheilu/lajit/jaakiekk...a_3216448.html

No youngsters (okay, possibly resting) and no Karalahti, so I guess we can snub him off of any serious consideration of making the final team.

Jalonen is obviously relying on getting every available player from NHL, which means he'll only have to patch a few holes with old familiars to make a team.


Last edited by FiLe: 01-30-2012 at 05:21 AM.
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