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Old
01-11-2012, 01:39 PM
  #51
la25ecoupe
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At least i like how Cunny manages ice time and does not favor oldies.

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01-11-2012, 01:41 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by la25ecoupe View Post
At least i like how Cunny manages ice time and does not favor oldies.
Then why the hell is Gill even in the lineup?

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01-11-2012, 02:08 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Let's not pretend the reason we're losing is because we're relying on Kaberle too much.
No, we're losing because there were obvious personnel problems, and it's funny how many were quick to share with us how they figured out exactly how he'd be a key piece towards fixing any of those problems. Whatever his failings/strengths, I've hate his softness, hesitance, and reluctance to pull the trigger for a while now, and figured that's exactly NOT what the Habs were hoping to plug into the holes left by Wisniewski, Hamrlik, OR Spacek, for that matter (wasn't all these guys leaving supposed to open up the door for improvements through acquisition/development - or, failing any of those, some cost/cap cutting preparations at least??)

And off topic, I'm not surprised to hear that the powers-that-be may have finally figured out that Campoli is useless. Could have told them THAT ahead of time, too.

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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Btw, never understood the problem with 2nd assists. Are they supposed to be irrelevant or something??
No "problem" with them. But I always get a good lol at the expense of anyone who says stuff like "(Player X) is obviously playing well. He has (X) points." or "(Player X) is obviously a good playmaker; look at all those assists." - without having actually watched the game/player enough to see how he's actually playing, and what side of the generating/benefiting balance a player lies on with respect to contribution vs that of teammates.

... like this guy:

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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
8 pts in 12 games from a defenceman is minimal offensive help?
When your "contribution" seems to be more by default as 2nd last person to touch the puck before a goal, and less actual consistent generation of plays that force the opponent to play defense, then yes... it can be considered "minimal". In Kaberle's case specifically, it's hard to overlook how his soft play results in more opposition possession, and less puck retrieval turning into transition play (which is one of this team's actual strengths, imo).


Last edited by Ohashi_Jouzu: 01-11-2012 at 02:59 PM.
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Old
01-11-2012, 02:10 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
If you think Markov was soft you should simply retire your keybord and stop posting. The guy was the taget for all teams playing us for years because he was our best player, if he was osft he wouldn't have been a perennial all-star.
You just love to put words in peoples mouths and overreact don't you?

Compared to some of the other D we've had over the years like Komo, Bouillon, Hamrlik, Wiz, Emelin, etc., Markov was comparatively soft yes. Didn't stop him from being my favorite player, but he certainly wasn't a physical force out there.
My point is that Kaberle has redefined my definition of soft. The guy doesnt even go for the obvious routine hits and goes out of his way to avoid contact. Therefore I *used* to think Markov was soft, but not anymore.

Again, give your own head a shake. Harder this time maybe.

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01-11-2012, 02:13 PM
  #55
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Even if he is a defensive liability why isn't the Wizard of puck movement in Kaberle not on the ice when the Habs are losing, struggling to get shots and supposedly fighting for a playoff spot?

The previous two game they won. RC must have thought there was some correlation - the less Kaberle plays the more the Habs win. LOL

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01-11-2012, 02:13 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
You're right and everybody else is wrong...Toronto had to give him away last year.
Toronto was very smart last year and Burke got a great deal for him and Boston even admitted getting fleeced and didn't even want him back and let him walk. That doesn't tell you anything, they traded all that for him and realized how bad he was and let him walk and take the loss they had to deal to Toronto

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
If you think Markov was soft you should simply retire your keybord and stop posting. The guy was the taget for all teams playing us for years because he was our best player, if he was osft he wouldn't have been a perennial all-star.
And what's going to be different when Mr. Markov comes back? You don't think teams will target the guy? Markov is done and Mr. Gauthier had no plan B and screwed up big time!

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01-11-2012, 02:20 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Habitant#1 View Post
You just love to put words in peoples mouths and overreact don't you?

Compared to some of the other D we've had over the years like Komo, Bouillon, Hamrlik, Wiz, Emelin, etc., Markov was comparatively soft yes. Didn't stop him from being my favorite player, but he certainly wasn't a physical force out there.
My point is that Kaberle has redefined my definition of soft. The guy doesnt even go for the obvious routine hits and goes out of his way to avoid contact. Therefore I *used* to think Markov was soft, but not anymore.

Again, give your own head a shake. Harder this time maybe.
I always thought Markov could escape injury in his earlier years because he flew under the radar so to speak. Then as teams started to respect his talent level he became more of a target. The more he became a target the less he could handle it.

And I agree that Kaberle redefines soft. There is soft and Kaberle soft. Kinda like there is tissue soft and then there is Kleenex soft. I think I'll start to refer to Kabs as Kleenex now. It's easier to spell too.

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Old
01-11-2012, 02:35 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Erik Estrada View Post
Kaberle was not a good trade. The offensive help has been minimal... Cunneyworth's stuck with hiding him at 5 on 5 to limit the defensive damage.

He's slowed down and is soft as Cottonelle tissue paper. Let's face it, it turns out all the experts and observers were right. Plus the club will need to shell out big money and he'll be almost impossible to move...
8 pts in 12 games from a defenceman is minimal offensive help?

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01-11-2012, 02:57 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
At this point I'm only comfortable with Gorges, Emelin, and Diaz in our zone. The rest scare me to death.
I'm a big fan of Diaz and Emelin but even they scare me to be honest. Only Gorges and good Subban (when he doesn't over handle the puck or try something too high risk).

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01-11-2012, 03:12 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Habitant#1 View Post
You just love to put words in peoples mouths and overreact don't you?

Compared to some of the other D we've had over the years like Komo, Bouillon, Hamrlik, Wiz, Emelin, etc., Markov was comparatively soft yes. Didn't stop him from being my favorite player, but he certainly wasn't a physical force out there.
My point is that Kaberle has redefined my definition of soft. The guy doesnt even go for the obvious routine hits and goes out of his way to avoid contact. Therefore I *used* to think Markov was soft, but not anymore.

Again, give your own head a shake. Harder this time maybe.
Just because a guy doesn't run around and hit everything that moves doesn't make him soft.

Being soft is not being willing to take a hit to make a play, bailing out and things like that. Most of the guys you named didn't have to take 1/3 of the hits Markov took because they were not carrying the puck all the time or playing big minutes.

Gionta is about as far from soft as one can be, but we still have "know it alls" on here calling him soft or at least alluring to it. They seem to associate big with tough and small with soft when in fact most fuys at 5'6" to 5'9" had to be tough just to make the NHL. Guys taht are 5'8" and soft never get drafted or signed by NHL teams.

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01-11-2012, 03:14 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
8 pts in 12 games from a defenceman is minimal offensive help?
Didn't you know? Every NHL team has AT LEAST 2 50 point defensemen.

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01-11-2012, 04:29 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Didn't you know? Every NHL team has AT LEAST 2 50 point defensemen.
I'd be curious to know how many 50 points defensemen the Habs will have at the end of the year.

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01-11-2012, 04:52 PM
  #63
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yes, Kaberle is putting up pts... but there is much more to a player than the stat line.

you could even fairly say that Kaberle is very productive in a pp specialist role, which is surely a solid asset to have.

the question is of value.

@2-3M$, Kaberle as a 1-dimensional point producing dman would be ok, since he is at least capable as a bottom pairing dman even when not scoring (albeit soft as butter).

@4.25M$, Kaberle's a very very expensive commodity on a team that is already cap stretched.

bad fit, bad trade.


if you don't think there is more to it than just points, go back and look at how many players have failed to land secure jobs despite coming off of high point producing years...

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Old
01-11-2012, 05:26 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
yes, Kaberle is putting up pts... but there is much more to a player than the stat line.

you could even fairly say that Kaberle is very productive in a pp specialist role, which is surely a solid asset to have.

the question is of value.

@2-3M$, Kaberle as a 1-dimensional point producing dman would be ok, since he is at least capable as a bottom pairing dman even when not scoring (albeit soft as butter).

@4.25M$, Kaberle's a very very expensive commodity on a team that is already cap stretched.

bad fit, bad trade.


if you don't think there is more to it than just points, go back and look at how many players have failed to land secure jobs despite coming off of high point producing years...
Especially with defenseman, whose value is even less reflected by points.

I didn`t have a problem with the trade when it happened because it was designed to fix the team`s one major weakness at the time (terrible powerplay) while their even strength and penalty killing was strong and the team wasn`t far out of the playoff race. There would be a pretty decent chance you could pump up Kaberle`s numbers and rehabilitate him into an approximation of the guy that played in Toronto that you could flip to a team that needed someone like him in the off-season.

It became a much worse move when you fire Martin the week afterward and replace him with an assistant that`s never been a head coach in the NHL before. Even if Cunneyworth becomes a good coach there was bound to be a tough transition period as he finds his feet, especially if you want to drastically change the team system at the same time. The resulting losing streak essentially killed the playoffs as a possibility so any value you got from bringing Kaberle in to save a season was lost and you`d be better off not doing it so you`d have more manoeuvring room in the off-season.

I lost a lot of faith in PG that week. Up to then most of his moves were either pretty good or at least understandable reactions to bad situations.

Now probably the best to hope for is that Montreal can bring Kaberle`s value high enough again that they can dump him at the deadline to a playoff team that needs puckmovement on defense.

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Old
01-11-2012, 05:51 PM
  #65
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Kaberle is being utiliized as he should be. He is not the player he was in Toronto, and even then he had obvious defensive shortcomings. He's a PP specialist and regular rotation, but he's not a top D, if he ever was.

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01-11-2012, 06:12 PM
  #66
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One of the big problems in adding a player like Kaberle is that this team has gone from being very deep in defensemen with good fundamental defense to very shallow over the course of about half a year.

Hamrlik, Gorges, Spacek, Gill and Markov are all very strong at that aspect of the game and it was a key part of the game plan under Martin the past two years to use that strength.

Hamrlik and Spacek are now gone, Gill is looking like he`s past his expired date and Markov is still injured. That leaves just Gorges and the defenders they`ve added are pretty much all rookies when this is a very much veteran skill set. You shouldn`t be expecting Emelin, Diaz and Weber to be good at that kind of thing. Emelin might be the most promising shutdown guy but that`s more in the mold of how Subban plays shutdown: mobility, skill and strength to cover large areas of the ice and take the puck away and keep it. That needs to be paired with a guy with the good fundamentals to let them roam.

So they have one guy that you might be able to pair with Kaberle and his excellent puckmovement skills to produce a regular minute pairing but your already using that guy with Subban to form your team`s only shutdown pairing. So you get stuck playing him minimal minutes. That he plays on the left side only worsens matters.

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Old
01-11-2012, 06:59 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Like I said at the time of the trade, people are going to see a bunch of 2nd assists, be fooled into thinking he's "producing/productive", and then confused at why the team loses relying on a guy like Kaberle. He was not the droid we were looking for then, and he's not the droid we're looking for now, no matter how "smart" getting him for Spacek can be made to look with pens and paper and such.

Yeah, I guess that's a big "I told ya so" to everyone who was seeing green pastures and sun-lit lanes lined with daffodils leading to the playoffs - while whistling/reciting all of Kaberle's past stats lines - when he was brought in.
I was with you the whole way.

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01-11-2012, 07:16 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Jamie Thomas View Post
I'd be curious to know how many 50 points defensemen the Habs will have at the end of the year.
Right now I'm not sure we will have a forward reach 50

But ya Carey Price still thinks it's the kaberle from 5 years ago, don't think he has watched him play much since last year

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01-12-2012, 06:55 PM
  #69
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Is Kaberle really an upgrade from Weber?

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01-12-2012, 07:49 PM
  #70
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Is Kaberle really an upgrade from Weber?
50pts d men!

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01-12-2012, 09:12 PM
  #71
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Kaberle is probably the softest defenseman in the NHL.. We will end bottom 5 for the next 2 years mark my words..

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01-12-2012, 09:22 PM
  #72
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As a leaf fan this whole thread makes me chuckle. Word of advice, kabby played his best hockey with Bryan McCabe, a guy who did all the dirty work while teeing up those nice little passes that kabby can dish so well. Toronto never expected much toughness from Kaberle, but rather just expect him to glide through the neutral zone with the puck with butter like smoothness. Your problem now, though...

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01-12-2012, 09:35 PM
  #73
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Gtfo

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Old
01-12-2012, 09:57 PM
  #74
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I don't mind Kaberle. With the Bourque deal cap space really isn't an issue to me at all. The habs have ample space now to re-sign their key guys and have a little bit too spend too...depending.

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Old
01-13-2012, 02:59 AM
  #75
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Another point for him too. Really is looking to be a 50 pt dman.

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