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Ottawa Senators @ ****sburgh Penguins | 7:00 P.M. | Consol Engery Sens Edition |

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Old
01-11-2012, 01:43 AM
  #751
dystemper
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Originally Posted by The Roffler View Post
Wasn't Pittsburgh almost moved because they couldn't get any fans to there games until they were given Crosby?
pittsburgh was in a crap situation the same way ottawa was. owner without deep pockets, crumbling arena, little support from the city (fanbase & municipality) and add the fact that they were on the verge of losing the biggest reason why anyone went to their games (lemieux). they couldn't afford to pay him, so gave him a stake in the ownership of the team.

but yeah, back to the original point, lemieux saved the penguins & crosby stabilised them and showed pittsburgh can be a very strong hockey market. they will always play second fiddle to the steelers (and arguably, the pirates) on a relatively small population. and the league's better for it, no matter how much we ***** and moan about their team and fanbase ;D

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01-11-2012, 08:00 AM
  #752
Jorge Garcia
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Originally Posted by BrawlFan View Post
If Cowen doesnt start handling the puck better or getting nastier to play against he's quickly going to become a hated player for me. He's huge and like Potvin said in a game earlier "YOU GOTTA BURY HIM" Again tonight he played like Phillips, which is ok, but I never understood why we cant have a Pronger type player.
1
I just miss Chara I guess, but Cowen come the eff on
Cowen is 20. Dmen peak at 30. Cowen hasn't even grown into his height yet, and he already crushes power forwards like paper cups. He skates better than Pronger ever did, he has a very high panic threshold, a wicked hard shot and decent hands and hockey sense. Barring injury or a sudden regression, a fully mature Cowen can be better than Pronger at his peak.
I miss Chara too, but remember that when he was Cowen's age, Z was an Islanders goon with no recognized upside. It took him five more years of hard work to reach the level Cowen is at now.


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01-11-2012, 08:40 AM
  #753
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Originally Posted by Jorge Garcia View Post
Cowen is 20. Dmen peak at 30. Cowen hasn't even grown into his height yet, and he already crushes power forwards like paper cups. He skates better than Pronger ever did, he has a very high panic threshold, a wicked hard shot and decent hands and hockey sense. Barring injury or a sudden regression, a fully mature Cowen can be better than Pronger at his peak.
I miss Chara too, but remember that when he was Cowen's age, Z was an Islanders goon with no recognized upside. It took him five more years of hard work to reach the level Cowen is at now.

No kidding. He is a rookie pulling down big minutes, taking up ice time to plug holes from injuries to Gonchar and Kuba, instead of getting spot duty and going up and down from bingo. Remember Denis Potvin's rule, it takes 300 games for a player to figure it all out at the NHL level.

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01-11-2012, 08:49 AM
  #754
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Cowen is impressive - way more than I ever figured he'd be as a rookie. He has his moments for sure, especially when the puck is in his skates area, but man I am impressed with his play most of the time.

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01-11-2012, 11:35 AM
  #755
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Originally Posted by Jorge Garcia View Post
Cowen is 20. Dmen peak at 30. Cowen hasn't even grown into his height yet, and he already crushes power forwards like paper cups. He skates better than Pronger ever did, he has a very high panic threshold, a wicked hard shot and decent hands and hockey sense. Barring injury or a sudden regression, a fully mature Cowen can be better than Pronger at his peak.
I miss Chara too, but remember that when he was Cowen's age, Z was an Islanders goon with no recognized upside. It took him five more years of hard work to reach the level Cowen is at now.
Good lord, do remember Pronger at his peak? The guy is a sure thing Hall of Fame'er

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01-11-2012, 11:44 AM
  #756
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So Pronger-Orr pairing not bad

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01-11-2012, 11:56 AM
  #757
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Originally Posted by dystemper View Post
pittsburgh was in a crap situation the same way ottawa was. owner without deep pockets, crumbling arena, little support from the city (fanbase & municipality) and add the fact that they were on the verge of losing the biggest reason why anyone went to their games (lemieux). they couldn't afford to pay him, so gave him a stake in the ownership of the team.

but yeah, back to the original point, lemieux saved the penguins & crosby stabilised them and showed pittsburgh can be a very strong hockey market. they will always play second fiddle to the steelers (and arguably, the pirates) on a relatively small population. and the league's better for it, no matter how much we ***** and moan about their team and fanbase ;D
Back the truck up

The fanbase was always there (attendance rarely dips below 18,000/game, sens are regularly in the top 10 in attendance despite having a market size in the bottom 5 of the league.) and the corporate sales were always strong.

The franchise was under-capitalized and debt-ridden from the get-go. The Firestone group used debt and stocks to finance the expansion fees, startup costs and arena. Their precarious financial situation came to head when Ogden Entertainment (their largest creditor) went belly-up blowing down the intricate financial house of cards.

Worked out well for Melnyk when he purchased the remaining assets from bankruptcy protection at a discount. He said he wouldn't have invested if the fan support wasn't there.

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01-11-2012, 02:25 PM
  #758
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Good lord, do remember Pronger at his peak? The guy is a sure thing Hall of Fame'er
Sure do. He could never skate the way Cowen can. I said a mature Cowen CAN be better than Pronger ever was, not that it's guaranteed. Let Cowen fill out to his adult size and strength, and add seven or eight years of experience, and you'll have a monster. Better than Pronger? Why not? Probably won't be as dirty, though.

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01-11-2012, 04:21 PM
  #759
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sorry but pronger is better than Cowen ever will be

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01-11-2012, 04:31 PM
  #760
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Originally Posted by Jorge Garcia View Post
Sure do. He could never skate the way Cowen can. I said a mature Cowen CAN be better than Pronger ever was, not that it's guaranteed. Let Cowen fill out to his adult size and strength, and add seven or eight years of experience, and you'll have a monster. Better than Pronger? Why not? Probably won't be as dirty, though.
Bouwmeester is a better skater than Pronger is/was. Same with a lot of defenceman.

I mean, in theory, MANY people "CAN" be better than Pronger, but in reality, few (if any) ever even come close to reaching where he was at his peak.

Expecting ANYBODY to become the "next pronger" or "better than Pronger" or even "as good as Pronger" is an exercise in disappointment. There's such a small chance it will happen.

Why not just be content with Cowen becoming the next Cowen, and stop trying to compare him to first-ballot hall-of-famers in order to accept him as a good player?

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01-11-2012, 04:40 PM
  #761
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Bouwmeester is a better skater than Pronger is/was. Same with a lot of defenceman.

I mean, in theory, MANY people "CAN" be better than Pronger, but in reality, few (if any) ever even come close to reaching where he was at his peak.

Expecting ANYBODY to become the "next pronger" or "better than Pronger" or even "as good as Pronger" is an exercise in disappointment. There's such a small chance it will happen.

Why not just be content with Cowen becoming the next Cowen, and stop trying to compare him to first-ballot hall-of-famers in order to accept him as a good player?
I'd settle for Larry Robinson.

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01-11-2012, 04:47 PM
  #762
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sorry but pronger is better than Cowen ever will be
That maybe be true, but there is no indication Cowen cant be a similar player. In his first couple seasons Pronger hovered around the 30 point mark. Cowen is already playing against top line players in his first year and doing a very good job.

People seem to quickly forget the hype around Cowen before he got injured.

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01-11-2012, 05:29 PM
  #763
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Pronger was taken 2nd overall for a reason

lets relax

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01-11-2012, 05:38 PM
  #764
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Originally Posted by The Roffler View Post
Wasn't Pittsburgh almost moved because they couldn't get any fans to there games until they were given Crosby?
Nope. First of all, you're way off base... and then you write "given Crosby".

Pittsburgh has always had very good TV ratings and excellent attendance. Even in their REALLY bad days, lack of fans wasn't a concern. The only main year where attendance dropped sharply was 2003-04... and if you looked at that team, I don't blame the fans one bit.

Penguins' fans have been very lucky with the talent they've seen since Lemieux.. Jagr, Steves, Francis, Coffey, Murphy, Malkin, Crosby... They have had a strong fanbase since the late 80's.

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01-11-2012, 06:43 PM
  #765
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Pronger was a player to be feared, it's this that other defenders have trouble emulating, and it's this that separates Pronger from the pack. He's a nasty SOB, and and he walks the dirty line so well that you're never sure if you're going to get an elbow or a slash or crosscheck when you go in on him, but you know you're getting something.

Having to be aware makes players change their game a bit and makes them a little less confident. Throw in his skill as a defenceman and you have one of only two truly feared dmen in the league.

I have not seen any evidence that Cowen possess that aggressiveness and mean streak necessary to be that player. He's not soft, and he's bullishly strong, he just doesn't seem punishing. And to be Pronger you have to revel, at least a bit, in making players suffer when they come withing your sphere of influence.

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01-11-2012, 06:56 PM
  #766
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Pronger was taken 2nd overall for a reason

lets relax
Pfft. No one remembers number 2.

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01-11-2012, 07:27 PM
  #767
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sorry but pronger is better than Cowen ever will be
If, and I mean IF, Cowen becomes a nasty mofo who ppl are always looking at once they get on the ice he'll be just as good IMO. Whether he gets the attention or not I dont know, but he will eventually become a better puck handler as he gets more comfortable. However what sets Pronger apart is the way he can take over a game physically and be a really old school nasty defenceman. I just dont see that in Cowen. He just pushes ppl off but never with a purpose, he's more like Phillips.

If Lee had to take a whole bunch of heat to become more physical I dont think Cowen should be given a pass, thats all. I don't want another Phillips when we can nurture Cowen to become a tough nasty dman

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01-11-2012, 07:28 PM
  #768
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I dont expect MoO to agree with me though. Identifying faults in our prospects/turris is getting me a lot of flak..

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01-11-2012, 07:33 PM
  #769
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Originally Posted by BrawlFan View Post
If Cowen doesnt start handling the puck better or getting nastier to play against he's quickly going to become a hated player for me. He's huge and like Potvin said in a game earlier "YOU GOTTA BURY HIM" Again tonight he played like Phillips, which is ok, but I never understood why we cant have a Pronger type player.
1
I just miss Chara I guess, but Cowen come the eff on
WOW. Relax dude. Cowen is 20 years old. Hes a ROOKIE. If you expect him to be lights out every game then I am sure every single player on this roster is on your hated players list.

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01-11-2012, 08:02 PM
  #770
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I think he got a little too confident and started doing too much, made some mistakes and now he's a little tentative after getting burned (probably got a verbal lashing as well). He just needs to keep it simple with the puck on his stick. His four point game was all due to simple plays: quick pass up ice from the D zone and getting pucks on net. He can carry it up the ice once in a while but we really don't need him to ever be below the oppositions blue line or trying to take on their whole team in the neutral zone. He tried it a few times and it hurt the team.
Yeah I'd agree with all of that. No complaints from me, that stretch where he was lights out is something he can strive for...and that stretch was better hockey than I was hoping he'd ever play really. If that's a look into his future, and once he fills out...we got a really nice complement for Karlsson.

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I think if Cowen was playing with Karlsson again, we would see a different Cowen.

Phillips and Kuba, Gonchar and Lee or Carkner. Who knows though.
Maybe. I would definitely agree though that as soon as he got to play with Karlsson...he just all of a sudden looked better. Whether it's Karlsson, the extra minutes, pressure...for whatever reason he was better in that time...and not quite as good when the roster went back to normal.

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So Pronger-Orr pairing not bad
We could do a lot better, IMO.

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Originally Posted by BrawlFan View Post
If, and I mean IF, Cowen becomes a nasty mofo who ppl are always looking at once they get on the ice he'll be just as good IMO. Whether he gets the attention or not I dont know, but he will eventually become a better puck handler as he gets more comfortable. However what sets Pronger apart is the way he can take over a game physically and be a really old school nasty defenceman. I just dont see that in Cowen. He just pushes ppl off but never with a purpose, he's more like Phillips.

If Lee had to take a whole bunch of heat to become more physical I dont think Cowen should be given a pass, thats all. I don't want another Phillips when we can nurture Cowen to become a tough nasty dman
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Originally Posted by BrawlFan View Post
I dont expect MoO to agree with me though. Identifying faults in our prospects/turris is getting me a lot of flak..
He's already more physically dominant than Phillips ever was. Did you ever see Pronger play at 20? I didn't, but I assume he was much less physically dominant than he was at the peak of his career. Sometimes he pushes forwards who try and chip and chase passed him with one arm.

Identifying faults is fine...but by reading what you're saying you are actually criticizing him for missing a piece in his game that would make him the next Chris Pronger. Now, whether I agree with that or not is not important...that is your evaluation. And those are some serious standards you are putting on him.

A 20 year old defensive "stay at home" who is proving to not be as "stay at home" as we assumed and getting some Calder nomination talk is very encouraging. He isn't the perfect player...but so far he's met any reasonable person's expectations or even passed them.

Imagine if Zibanejad had Crosby's vision? He'd be like, the next Crosby.

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01-11-2012, 09:05 PM
  #771
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Yeah I'd agree with all of that. No complaints from me, that stretch where he was lights out is something he can strive for...and that stretch was better hockey than I was hoping he'd ever play really. If that's a look into his future, and once he fills out...we got a really nice complement for Karlsson.



Maybe. I would definitely agree though that as soon as he got to play with Karlsson...he just all of a sudden looked better. Whether it's Karlsson, the extra minutes, pressure...for whatever reason he was better in that time...and not quite as good when the roster went back to normal.



We could do a lot better, IMO.





He's already more physically dominant than Phillips ever was. Did you ever see Pronger play at 20? I didn't, but I assume he was much less physically dominant than he was at the peak of his career. Sometimes he pushes forwards who try and chip and chase passed him with one arm.

Identifying faults is fine...but by reading what you're saying you are actually criticizing him for missing a piece in his game that would make him the next Chris Pronger. Now, whether I agree with that or not is not important...that is your evaluation. And those are some serious standards you are putting on him.

A 20 year old defensive "stay at home" who is proving to not be as "stay at home" as we assumed and getting some Calder nomination talk is very encouraging. He isn't the perfect player...but so far he's met any reasonable person's expectations or even passed them.

Imagine if Zibanejad had Crosby's vision? He'd be like, the next Crosby.
I may be criticizing but its not that he doesnt have that peice in his game, its that he doesnt utilize it enough for me. I am just worried that we become too complacent with his development and dont encourage him to become the dman we all know he can be. He's only 20, so right now is the time to mold areas of his game that need molding.

I did not see Pronger play, but I did watch Chara when he came over and I did see the first few season of Volchy. Both showed promise and were more aggressive that Cowen is now. Cowen is playing a good defensive game, not great, but a good defensive game and is learning about areas of his game that need work. But I have yet to see a big hit from him, a guy going into the corner should fear for his life when Cowen is there.

I have watched a few Ottawa Buffalo games this year and I can say, without a doubt, that Reghr lays out a player regularly. He is a tough dman and when he goes to hit a guy he goes with a passion. That is what I want from Cowen, a guy who WANTS to play the body hard. I dont see the desire.

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