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The All-Purpose Toughness Thread (Part 2)

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Old
11-04-2011, 10:20 AM
  #51
TheWhiteIdea
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Kassain would have been a nice addition. He's basically a Blunden that can actually fight.

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01-11-2012, 09:18 PM
  #52
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Looking at the next three games that the Habs have on the schedule, I figured it was time to dust off this old thread.

We will be facing the Bruins, the Sens and then the Rangers. All of those teams are loaded with tough gritty players who are willing to fight anyone. Us, not so much.

It appears that the key to winning in the NHL is to have a very tough team. Looking in the East, the Rangers are on top with 58 points, next come the Bruins with 55 points and then the surging Sens with 52 points.

And the Montreal Canadiens are in 12th place with 39 points.


Rangers fights this season, 32 total.

Rank Player Fight Totals

1 Brandon Prust 11
2 Michael Rupp 5
3 Sean Avery 3
4 Andre Deveaux 3
5 Stu Bickel 2
6 Brian Boyle 2
7 Brandon Dubinsky 2
8 Kris Newbury 2
9 Ryan Callahan 1
10 Michael Sauer 1

Bruins fights this season, 30 total.

Rank Player Fight Totals

1 Shawn Thornton 10
2 Gregory Campbell 5
3 Zdeno Chara 3
4 Johnny Boychuk 2
5 Nathan Horton 2
6 Milan Lucic 2
7 Brad Marchand 2
8 Adam McQuaid 2
9 Joe Corvo 1
10 Chris Kelly 1

Senators fights this season, 28 total.

Rank Player Fight Totals

1 Zenon Konopka 12
2 Chris Neil 4
3 Matt Carkner 2
4 Colin Greening 2
5 Zack Smith 2
6 Jesse Winchester 2
7 Jared Cowen 1
8 Nick Foligno 1
9 Brian Lee 1
10 Kyle Turris 1

Canadiens fights this season, 8 total.

Rank Player Fight Totals

1 Travis Moen 2
2 Petteri Nokelainen 2
3 Michael Blunden 1
4 Hal Gill 1
5 Max Pacioretty 1
6 P.K. Subban 1


Pretty stark reality staring straight at us.

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Old
01-11-2012, 09:22 PM
  #53
ECWHSWI
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you forgot to mention Columbus and Anaheim...

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Old
01-11-2012, 09:23 PM
  #54
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I wish we could clone Cole and Kostitsyn along with Emelin on D.

We'll have a though team then.

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Old
01-11-2012, 09:27 PM
  #55
SouthernHab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
you forgot to mention Columbus and Anaheim...
There are only a few absolutes in the world.

Death, taxes and *******s.

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01-11-2012, 09:32 PM
  #56
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The Habs are a puss team. Deal with it guys.

15 toughest teams (according to hockeyfights.com) : 13.5th/30 (average)
15 softest teams (according to hockeyfights.com) : 17.5th/30 (average)

The Habs are not going to win until they will put on the ice, a team that's going to match with:

- The tough Boston Bruins (Thornton, Lucic, Chara, McQuaid, Boychuk, Ference, Campbell)
- The tough Ottawa Senators (Carkner, Neil, Smith, Konopka, Cowen)
- The tough Rangers (Rupp, Prust, Dubinsky, Callahan, Deveaux, Bickel)
- The tough Penguins (MacIntyre, Engelland, Asham, Adams, Kennedy)
- The tough Flyers (Shelley, Walker, Simmonds, Bourdon, Rinaldo)

Beside this, what do we have? Travis Moen... who doesn't even match up with most of those guys.

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01-11-2012, 09:42 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Killerguitar101 View Post
Travis Moen...
Moen seems like a nice guy. Everyone on Montreal seems like nice guys. Maybe we'll kill the Bruins with kindness.

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Old
01-11-2012, 09:43 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killerguitar101 View Post
The Habs are a puss team. Deal with it guys.

15 toughest teams (according to hockeyfights.com) : 13.5th/30 (average)
15 softest teams (according to hockeyfights.com) : 17.5th/30 (average)


The Habs are not going to win until they will put on the ice, a team that's going to match with:

- The tough Boston Bruins (Thornton, Lucic, Chara, McQuaid, Boychuk, Ference, Campbell)
- The tough Ottawa Senators (Carkner, Neil, Smith, Konopka, Cowen)
- The tough Rangers (Rupp, Prust, Dubinsky, Callahan, Deveaux, Bickel)
- The tough Penguins (MacIntyre, Engelland, Asham, Adams, Kennedy)
- The tough Flyers (Shelley, Walker, Simmonds, Bourdon, Rinaldo)

Beside this, what do we have? Travis Moen... who doesn't even match up with most of those guys.
What does this mean? Am I missing something here?

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01-11-2012, 09:53 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
you forgot to mention Columbus and Anaheim...
So by your logic, players like Getzlaf, Perry, Ryan, Nash and Carter shouod be uesless then, right?

People like you have such a hard time understanding the mix for some reason. What we lack in toughness they lack in talent, is that so hard to grasp?

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01-11-2012, 10:01 PM
  #60
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Dude, knock it off with our "talent". Our talent gets us stats of maybe a high of like 60 points for our top scorer in a season. A Kost is so inconsistent and I'm tired of it, and the others have some skill but we dont have one single top notch forward on the ice out there. Subban is incredibly skilled but he's a D man and way too young right now to carry anything. We are lucky to have Price.

So we have mediocre skill and no size/toughness. No grit, no passion, no emotion. They dont play angry, they never play as those who dictate what's going to happen on the ice, they are totally reactionary. This needs to change.

These small guys get tired by the end of the season and once a big and tough team comes in they naturally fade and then get stomped.

We have no 4th line. Darche, Nokie and Blunden or whomever is not a legit 4th line.

Moen is a tough guy but he's on an island and I can understand why he wouldnt fight nearly as much as he did with the Ducks because he's the only one that can here, and that is totally frustrating for a guy that isnt a legit HW or enfrocer.

It's a shame too cuz a lot of tough guys are being put on waivers and such.

I heard Martin is a scout for us now? Great, we'll be scouting as many small, defensively responsible pansies as we possibly can from now on.

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01-11-2012, 10:02 PM
  #61
Et le But
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post
So by your logic, players like Getzlaf, Perry, Ryan, Nash and Carter shouod be uesless then, right?

People like you have such a hard time understanding the mix for some reason. What we lack in toughness they lack in talent, is that so hard to grasp?
I'm pretty sure he was saying that making over the top generalizations like lots of fights = winning hockey with no basis in reality. Of course a balance matters, which is why saying things like "Boston and NY have a lot of big guys that fight, therefore having big guys that fight makes you good at hockey)" is completely useless.

I'd love any of the players of you listed (most of them rarely, if ever fight though, because they are too valuable, but they are mostly tough), but as much because they all regularly put up more goals and points than what we have.

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01-11-2012, 10:08 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post
So by your logic, players like Getzlaf, Perry, Ryan, Nash and Carter shouod be uesless then, right?

People like you have such a hard time understanding the mix for some reason. What we lack in toughness they lack in talent, is that so hard to grasp?
tell that to the guy I responded to...


besides, they may lack in talent, but the Have guys like Perry, Ryan, Getzlaf, Nash, Carter... wich we dont

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01-11-2012, 10:39 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
I'm pretty sure he was saying that making over the top generalizations like lots of fights = winning hockey with no basis in reality. Of course a balance matters, which is why saying things like "Boston and NY have a lot of big guys that fight, therefore having big guys that fight makes you good at hockey)" is completely useless.

I'd love any of the players of you listed (most of them rarely, if ever fight though, because they are too valuable, but they are mostly tough), but as much because they all regularly put up more goals and points than what we have.
Your generalizations about me making generalizations are completely wrong.

Read the reply that I made to ECH. There are no absolutes. Fighting does not equate winning. Having big tough strong gritty players usually (again, cannot speak in absolutes) does equate to success in the NHL.

After all, one only has to look at the best teams in the East (come on ECH, I will be waiting for the Red Wings comment) who are loaded with big tough strong gritty guys and then look at us.

There is a reason those three teams that I mentioned are succeeding in the East while we are struggling.

If the opposite were true where we had the best team in the East, then this thread could and should be shut down. But its not.

As MaxPac said, there needs to be a balance on a team to succeed. This team is woefully lacking in toughness and grit and the willingness to stand up for its teammates. We are out of balance. And our record shows.

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01-11-2012, 10:49 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Your generalizations about me making generalizations are completely wrong.

Read the reply that I made to ECH. There are no absolutes. Fighting does not equate winning. Having big tough strong gritty players usually (again, cannot speak in absolutes) does equate to success in the NHL.

After all, one only has to look at the best teams in the East (come on ECH, I will be waiting for the Red Wings comment) who are loaded with big tough strong gritty guys and then look at us.

There is a reason those three teams that I mentioned are succeeding in the East while we are struggling.

If the opposite were true where we had the best team in the East, then this thread could and should be shut down. But its not.

As MaxPac said, there needs to be a balance on a team to succeed. This team is woefully lacking in toughness and grit and the willingness to stand up for its teammates. We are out of balance. And our record shows.
well, I wonder why you pick FIGHTS to determine who's tough and gritty then, instead of lets say... hitting ?

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01-11-2012, 10:52 PM
  #65
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With White back, a guy in the Neil/McLeod/Prust/Thornton (pretty tough guys that can play hockey and hits) mold on the fourth line with Nokelainen and White. Plus Moen on the third line and a Sarich/Bryan Allen kind of guy as a big D instead of Gill and the team would already look better in physical matchups.

You add to that guys like Kostitsyn, Gorges, Subban, Eller, Cole, Pacioretty and the team would have less problems.

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01-11-2012, 11:10 PM
  #66
SouthernHab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
well, I wonder why you pick FIGHTS to determine who's tough and gritty then, instead of lets say... hitting ?
This team does "hit", at least what the stats keepers determine as "hitting".

Not good enough. The Blues exposed us big time last night. I am sure the Bruins will take up where they left off.

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Old
01-11-2012, 11:28 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
This team does "hit", at least what the stats keepers determine as "hitting".

Not good enough. The Blues exposed us big time last night. I am sure the Bruins will take up where they left off.
You mean, it doesnt fit your argument...



Speaking of the Blues, you know they're middle of the pack when it comes to hitting and fighting right ? and yet, they "exposed" us ? really...

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01-12-2012, 09:23 AM
  #68
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It's a kid game for other teams to come play to Montreal. Reaves is a fighter, and tuesday he played like Rick Nash.

It's so easy to find toughness. I can't believe Gauthier don't understand after all this fiasco

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01-12-2012, 09:28 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
This team does "hit", at least what the stats keepers determine as "hitting".

Not good enough. The Blues exposed us big time last night. I am sure the Bruins will take up where they left off.
Boston plays a different style than St Louis, I doubt they cahnge their style just for 1 game. Boston is more of a skilled puck posession team who counter attacks, St Louis is a more defensive and puck pressure style.

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01-12-2012, 09:35 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Aurel Joliat View Post
It's a kid game for other teams to come play to Montreal. Reaves is a fighter, and tuesday he played like Rick Nash.

It's so easy to find toughness. I can't believe Gauthier don't understand after all this fiasco
What is the point of getting players like that if your coach won't play them?

It's not just Gauthier, it's league wide...Stortini is now in the AHL, Orr in the AHL, MacIntyre on waivers. PLLL is also in the AHL. Just about every player he's added is either big(above 6' and 200lbs or plays with an edge). Eller Schultz Blunden Emelin Cole drafted guys like Didier Dietz

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01-12-2012, 09:40 AM
  #71
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Meh - I'm not even upset that I don't get to watch tonight. The idea of the Bruins mocking us... on the scoreboard, after the whistle, is just too much.

Listening to Nilan on 990 yesterday... man, I wish we had a few guys with a mean streak.

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Old
01-12-2012, 09:43 AM
  #72
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the problem remains balance...

we lack it in our roster & we lack it in our highest paid players.

think about it:

Gomez
Cammy
Markov
Pleks
Gionta
Cole
Kaberle

6 of our 7 highest paid players are all guys who rely far more on skill/finess than on grit/physicality.

I don't like fighting.

I don't think fighting should be part of the game.

I think, much like K.Dryden pointed out in a recent article, that figthing has nothing to do with toughness...

toughness is about how you play the game (cole, case in point).

I suppose you could argue that Gionta plays with that kind of "toughness", but at his diminutive size, the impact his style of play has on the opposition simply doesn't cause them any physical pressure.


It was pure stupidity to build a roster relying so exclusively on players who don't use physicality as part of their effectiveness... it created a very one-dimensional team.

when you are one-dimensional, it can be effective when everything is going right (see first 2 rounds of 2010 playoffs), but it makes it incredibly difficult for the team (players and coaches) to adapt to the opposition.

Regardless of the style or brand of hockey you want to play, you have to have a roster with enough variability of talents to be able to adapt... in-game, in-season, in-playoff series.

hard, if not impossible, to do with a roster so poorly assembled.

not all that different than life, really... populations that lack diversity are the first ones to go when things get tough, populations that have enough diversity find a way to survive and evolve...

habs, as Gainey/Gauthier have built them, are like the dodo bird, and this season is like watching the team go through the final stages of extinction.

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Old
01-12-2012, 09:46 AM
  #73
Miller Time
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
What is the point of getting players like that if your coach won't play them?

It's not just Gauthier, it's league wide...Stortini is now in the AHL, Orr in the AHL, MacIntyre on waivers. PLLL is also in the AHL. Just about every player he's added is either big(above 6' and 200lbs or plays with an edge). Eller Schultz Blunden Emelin Cole drafted guys like Didier Dietz
and yet he goes out and trades for a 4.25M$ dman that is as soft as butter and signed for 2 more years... adding him to a defense that is already notoriously ineffective dealing with big physical forwards due to their lack of physicality.

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01-12-2012, 09:51 AM
  #74
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and yet he goes out and trades for a 4.25M$ dman that is as soft as butter and signed for 2 more years... adding him to a defense that is already notoriously ineffective dealing with big physical forwards due to their lack of physicality.
Our defense has been ineffective against everybody this year, pointing to "big physical forwards" is not an accurate picture.

Kaberle was brought in because of the PP plus markov being out another 5-6 weeks. He isn't the problem...Gill being pretty much ineffective this year and Subban struggling are the biggest issues, last year those 2 played big mintes 2nd half and played very well.

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01-12-2012, 09:58 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Our defense has been ineffective against everybody this year, pointing to "big physical forwards" is not an accurate picture.

Kaberle was brought in because of the PP plus markov being out another 5-6 weeks. He isn't the problem...Gill being pretty much ineffective this year and Subban struggling are the biggest issues, last year those 2 played big mintes 2nd half and played very well.
our defense has struggled against physical forwards for years, not just this year.

fixing one problem (innefective pp) by creating another one (overpaid soft veteran dman added to an already soft blueline with 2 quality young players already in place and cut from the same mould) is not smart management.

too focused on short term problem solving (nevermind that the short term solution has been a bust in terms of improving the team's overall performance) and a lack of understanding of the importance of building a balanced roster.

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