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Will Bryzgalov ever be worth his contract? All Bryz Discussion Here. Part Two

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01-12-2012, 11:22 AM
  #26
Bernie Parent 1974
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Originally Posted by MrHockey1982 View Post
OK but people have other opinions on whether that makes him worth his contract or not. So that's why we are discussing it regularly.
how anybody wouldn't feel that Bryz being in net and winning the CUP was worth that contract is beyond laughable in my view.

Neimi skated the CUP for CHI. he was worth it for them. period. actual amount of money / years has nothing to do with this.

1975 was LONG ago folks. all i want is the CUP.

with that being said, most posts here are debating Bryz's performance game to game

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01-12-2012, 11:34 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
how anybody wouldn't feel that Bryz being in net and winning the CUP was worth that contract is beyond laughable in my view.

Neimi skated the CUP for CHI. he was worth it for them. period. actual amount of money / years has nothing to do with this.

1975 was LONG ago folks. all i want is the CUP.

with that being said, most posts here are debating Bryz's performance game to game
My thoughts exactly, but for some reason that seems to be the minority view. People would rather have a shot at multiple Cups than having won an actual Cup.

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01-12-2012, 11:51 AM
  #28
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I am not a Bryz hater, but put together this as someone said they were worried Bob could end the season with similar stats to Bryz if he played as much.


Bob has played about half of the games Bryz has... so for his stats to look like Bryz's if roles were reversed and Bob plays double the games Bryz does:

First half:

Bob:16 gp, SA 418, GA 34, GAA 2.45, SV 384, SV% .919, 833:17 mins

Second half:

Bob: 29 gp, SA 800, GA 99, GAA 3.36 , SV 701, GAA SV% .876, 1766.43 mins (over 60 mins per game, not realistic but has to be done to make the stats identical.)

Whole year:

Bob: 45 gp, SA 1218, GA 133, GAA 3.07 , SV 1085, SV% .891, 2600 mins

Funnily enough it is actually impossible for Bob to put up Bryz's stats over the whole year, even if he played as much as Bryz has, as to let in enough goals to lower his goal against average that much he would have to play over 60mins a game through 29 games, letting in 3.36 goals per game and having a .876% sv percentage.

Only Alex Auld, DiPietro and Brent Johnson have those kind of figures, so Bob would have to turn into the worst goalie in the league, and somehow manage to play 29 games without being pulled, in order to make his stats look like Bryz's by season end.

Did not realize just how bad Bryz's stats were compared to Bob's until I worked this out! I too thought a few games may be able to make Bryz's respectable, and Bob's really bad. Obviously not.

And if you make the mins played more realistic through the second half Bob would play about 1650 mins, due to being pulled etc, 27.5 games, with 99 GA, this would be 3.6 GAA, which over the year would be approx 3.20 GAA, compared to if Bryz played exactly the same as he has been, a 3.06 GAA. So they would have exactly the same SV%, yet Bob would have allowed more goals against per game.

I realize that stats do lie, and Bob would have to play so badly in a bigger sample it may skew the stats, but the fact that if Bob played like Bryz had over a whole year he would have more Goals against average by 0.14, this indicates that the defense is actually playing quite well in front of Bryzgalov.


If anyone sees any mistakes I am more than happy to be corrected, did not do Maths at Degree level, even though at one point I very much wanted too.

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01-12-2012, 12:03 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
how anybody wouldn't feel that Bryz being in net and winning the CUP was worth that contract is beyond laughable in my view.

Neimi skated the CUP for CHI. he was worth it for them. period. actual amount of money / years has nothing to do with this.

1975 was LONG ago folks. all i want is the CUP.

with that being said, most posts here are debating Bryz's performance game to game

I agree with your opinion on this. Some others don't. The other thing is, if we win a cup, do I CARE if he's worth his contract or not? No, I don't. But others might still say he's not worth his contract even then. I couldn't care less at that point but they might. Either way, I see this thread as kind of a Bryz discussion/contract thread so I don't think there's a problem with discussing each of his games.

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01-12-2012, 01:04 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Cmoneyflyguy View Post
Bryz is a really good goalie. Not just a product of a system. I'm convinced this is mental.


Maybe you know better than Roenick, but I doubt it.
Do you have anything to support that?

Bryz before Phoenix: .909, 2.48
Mike Smith before: .906, 2.71

Bryz first year in Phoenix: .921, 2.43
Smith first year in Phoenix: .924, 2.38

Those numbers are strikingly similar, and I doubt few people would confuse Mike Smith with an elite 51 million dollar goalie.

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01-12-2012, 01:22 PM
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Do you have anything to support that?
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"He's one of the better goaltenders I've played against in my career and a very difficult guy to score against when he's on," Roenick said.
Also my eyes.

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01-12-2012, 01:45 PM
  #32
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I'm starting to feel really bad for Bryz. He should of started the last game and he should be starting against the isles. Is lavy really going to bench him every time he gives up a goal. In his last start, the team gave up in the third period. How is that possibly on the goaltender.

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01-12-2012, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
I'm starting to feel really bad for Bryz. He should of started the last game and he should be starting against the isles. Is lavy really going to bench him every time he gives up a goal. In his last start, the team gave up in the third period. How is that possibly on the goaltender.
Luckily he didn't since Bob stepped up to the challenge...

Bryz accepted the situation when he signed here for his lucrative contract....I don't feel bad for underachievers and he's clearly underachieving by his own admission, that of the coach based on not getting starts, the players with Hartnell's wake up call comment with the WC decision, and the GM who said he has to play better. So this is more than a situation of unfair bias.

He made his bed of money and now he has to show more consistent results and come out with an A game like Bob just did to win back the confidence of the coach, management, the team, and most importantly regain his own confidence. He's been given more than ample opportunity. He has the talent..it's mental mostly. I mean the goaltending position is more mental than most other positions.

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01-12-2012, 02:03 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
I'm starting to feel really bad for Bryz. He should of started the last game and he should be starting against the isles. Is lavy really going to bench him every time he gives up a goal. In his last start, the team gave up in the third period. How is that possibly on the goaltender.

Karlsson's goal was his fault and they blew a 2 goal lead in the third and got 0 points. It's not all the team's fault. Bob blew the Winter Classic on that second goal and Bryz got the next start. They both get benched if they let in bad goals.

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01-12-2012, 03:18 PM
  #35
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My thoughts exactly, but for some reason that seems to be the minority view. People would rather have a shot at multiple Cups than having won an actual Cup.
They last won when I was 14. I'm 50 now. I'd like see them hoist it once while I still have use of my eyes!! IF Bryz can be part of that, he'll be worth double his contract - and Mr. Snider will agree.

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01-12-2012, 03:32 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
I'm starting to feel really bad for Bryz. He should of started the last game and he should be starting against the isles. Is lavy really going to bench him every time he gives up a goal. In his last start, the team gave up in the third period. How is that possibly on the goaltender.
Lavy's been riding the hot hand pretty much the entire time since he came here. Sometimes to a fault (probably tiring out Bobrovsky a bit in his rookie season last year). I think Bobrovsky also has some tremendous stats against NYI, kind of like Niitty had against the Thrashers, though not quite that good.

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01-12-2012, 03:47 PM
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Bryz is a good goalie. I personally want a goalie who is ahtletic and able to make a big save but does not let in "soft goals". Thats it. I don't think you need the best goalie in the world to win in the NHL, it has been proven over and over. I do think you need the best team D in the league and that is why I would trade JVR + for Weber/Suter.

Weber-Meszaros
Timonen-Coburn
Carle-Bourdon (Pronger would be nice)

Goalie

Bryz or Bob are capable of stopping shots they see and making big saves from time to time. Bryz is big and takes up a lot of net. Limit the high quality scoring chances, the unnecessary turnovers from the forwards and the goalies are good enough to win it all.

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01-12-2012, 03:55 PM
  #38
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I don't buy into players being worth their contracts just because the team happens to win. Not in the cap era. If a player isn't playing up to their cap hit, then they're a liability and the team is winning despite the wasted space. Cap space must be allocated wisely to maximize a team's chances of winning. That's just my take. For instance, Chicago won the Cup with Huet on the team; they won despite his cap hit, which could have been put to better use elsewhere. That win did nothing to validate his contract IMO, which is why he was made to disappear.

Briere is beginning to fall into that category unless he picks it up...but given his age, it seems doubtful. Right now Bryz is definitely in that category. He technically should still be able to play up to his hit for a few years, but it's frustrating to see this year be mostly wasted up to this point, and it's going to be more frustrating as he ages and begins to decline.

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01-12-2012, 04:30 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I don't buy into players being worth their contracts just because the team happens to win. Not in the cap era. If a player isn't playing up to their cap hit, then they're a liability and the team is winning despite the wasted space. Cap space must be allocated wisely to maximize a team's chances of winning. That's just my take. For instance, Chicago won the Cup with Huet on the team; they won despite his cap hit, which could have been put to better use elsewhere. That win did nothing to validate his contract IMO, which is why he was made to disappear.

Briere is beginning to fall into that category unless he picks it up...but given his age, it seems doubtful. Right now Bryz is definitely in that category. He technically should still be able to play up to his hit for a few years, but it's frustrating to see this year be mostly wasted up to this point, and it's going to be more frustrating as he ages and begins to decline.
You keep bringing up Huet. The guy had more than 20 wins and four shutouts during that season. He obviously was not THE reason the team won in 2010, but you can't act like he was some kind of detriment. You say his cap space could have gone elsewhere and they would have been better. But how can you be better than winning the Cup? I know this argument is always dismissed, but you take that $5 mil and spread it out and get new players, they may not make the Cup finals, let alone win it. You win the Cup, you can't do better. I say this all the time and everyone hates when I say it, but the goal of hockey is to win the Cup, not have the best contracts. You win the Cup, there is nothing more. End of story.

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01-12-2012, 04:50 PM
  #40
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You keep bringing up Huet. The guy had more than 20 wins and four shutouts during that season. He obviously was not THE reason the team won in 2010, but you can't act like he was some kind of detriment. You say his cap space could have gone elsewhere and they would have been better. But how can you be better than winning the Cup? I know this argument is always dismissed, but you take that $5 mil and spread it out and get new players, they may not make the Cup finals, let alone win it. You win the Cup, you can't do better. I say this all the time and everyone hates when I say it, but the goal of hockey is to win the Cup, not have the best contracts. You win the Cup, there is nothing more. End of story.
How many games did Huet win in those playoffs compared to Niemi?

Huet's money could have just gone to a cheaper option and then they could have gotten more depth for their skaters, which in terms of team construction would be a wiser choice. Sure, hindsight makes it easy to say "it didn't matter" but at the time that would have been the smarter and safer use of those resources.

Huet was 26-14 (2.50, .895%) in his starts, and Niemi was 26-7 (2.25, .912%). Which goalie was better for their team? The one with the expensive cap hit, or the cheaper one who won a higher percentage of games and put up better stats? Huet was a crappy use of cap space, which is why Chicago hauled him off to Europe as soon as they possibly could.

I keep bringing up Huet because right now, that's the best comparison for Bryz; expensive goalie who's not playing well and is getting shown up by his young backup. I'm certainly not the first or only person to spy the similarities.

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01-12-2012, 04:56 PM
  #41
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Just saw this on daily news live. Sorry it's the only pic I could find.

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01-12-2012, 04:56 PM
  #42
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If Bryz is going to get better, I have this suspicion that it won't happen until he has an offseason to clear his head and return to planet earth.

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01-12-2012, 05:10 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I don't buy into players being worth their contracts just because the team happens to win. Not in the cap era. If a player isn't playing up to their cap hit, then they're a liability and the team is winning despite the wasted space. Cap space must be allocated wisely to maximize a team's chances of winning. That's just my take. For instance, Chicago won the Cup with Huet on the team; they won despite his cap hit, which could have been put to better use elsewhere. That win did nothing to validate his contract IMO, which is why he was made to disappear.

Briere is beginning to fall into that category unless he picks it up...but given his age, it seems doubtful. Right now Bryz is definitely in that category. He technically should still be able to play up to his hit for a few years, but it's frustrating to see this year be mostly wasted up to this point, and it's going to be more frustrating as he ages and begins to decline.
Exactly my feeling. We were 2 wins away from winning the cup in 2010, would we have felt Leighton had "won us the cup"? Nobody would be saying he won it for us, we would still be saying we won in spite of him. Getting to the finals did not make Leighton a good goalie, it meant the defence from the forwards and defencemen did their job. If we win a cup with Bryz in net and the team has to play musical goalies because of it, and the final game is a 6-5 win, people aren't going to suddenly say Bryz was worth it.

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01-12-2012, 05:20 PM
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Exactly my feeling. We were 2 wins away from winning the cup in 2010, would we have felt Leighton had "won us the cup"? Nobody would be saying he won it for us, we would still be saying we won in spite of him. Getting to the finals did not make Leighton a good goalie, it meant the defence from the forwards and defencemen did their job. If we win a cup with Bryz in net and the team has to play musical goalies because of it, and the final game is a 6-5 win, people aren't going to suddenly say Bryz was worth it.
Well, apparently some will.

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01-12-2012, 05:22 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
How many games did Huet win in those playoffs compared to Niemi?
That doesn't matter. He won 20+ in the regular season.

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Huet's money could have just gone to a cheaper option and then they could have gotten more depth for their skaters, which in terms of team construction would be a wiser choice.
If you are talking about drawing up a team on paper, then you are probably right. But when you look at a team that won the Cup, it is absurd to say well if you changed player X, Y, and Z they would have been better. First of all, you can't be better than Stanley Cup champs. Second of all, and this is the argument you always dismiss, you get rid of Huet for a cheaper tender, he may or may not do better than Huet. Then you replace skaters and they may or may not do better than whomever they replace. I know that you don't like that argument, but you can't simply dismiss it.

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Sure, hindsight makes it easy to say "it didn't matter" but at the time that would have been the smarter and safer use of those resources.
But we are talking about hindsight. You can't say someone was or was not worth their contract without hindsight. We aren't talking about whether he should have been signed or whether they overpaid. We are talking about whether he earned that contract. He was a part of the team that won the Cup. He had about half of their wins that season. He earned it that year.

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Huet was 26-14 (2.50, .895%) in his starts, and Niemi was 26-7 (2.25, .912%). Which goalie was better for their team? The one with the expensive cap hit, or the cheaper one who won a higher percentage of games and put up better stats?
Again, that isn't what we are talking about. Niemi was better. No question. But Huet contributed by winning half of the team's games. Helping them get to the playoffs, wherein the Hawks won.

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Huet was a crappy use of cap space, which is why Chicago hauled him off to Europe as soon as they possibly could.
That's fine, but he still earned his contract the year they won the Cup.

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I keep bringing up Huet because right now, that's the best comparison for Bryz; expensive goalie who's not playing well and is getting shown up by his young backup. I'm certainly not the first or only person to spy the similarities.
Fair enough. I see the similarities and just like Huet, if the Flyers win a Cup this year or next, it will all be worth it.

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01-12-2012, 05:26 PM
  #46
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Exactly my feeling. We were 2 wins away from winning the cup in 2010, would we have felt Leighton had "won us the cup"? Nobody would be saying he won it for us, we would still be saying we won in spite of him. Getting to the finals did not make Leighton a good goalie, it meant the defence from the forwards and defencemen did their job. If we win a cup with Bryz in net and the team has to play musical goalies because of it, and the final game is a 6-5 win, people aren't going to suddenly say Bryz was worth it.
I don't think anyone was saying Huet won the Hawks the Cup or would have said Leighton won us the Cup. What I do think is that if the Flyers did win the Cup with Leighton in net, he would be worth every penny at any price.

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01-12-2012, 05:31 PM
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Let me pose this question, specifically to you, Beef, but others can answer.

Would you rather have at least one guaranteed Cup with Bryz's current contract or no guarantee but a different goalie or contract (someone that was attainable like Vokoun or just keep Bob)?

I'd take the Cup every day of the week. It's nice to have a shot at the Cup, but I'll take the real deal every time.

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01-12-2012, 05:32 PM
  #48
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I'm feeling Deja Vu. Now is when I say "nuh-uh" in about 6 paragraphs, right? It's pretty clear that you don't think proper allocation of cap dollars is of vital importance to putting a team in the best position to win, and it's clear that no evidence will change your mind.

Including the fact that the Hawks themselves immediately decided that Huet and his 20+ wins during a Cup season weren't worth it.

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I don't think anyone was saying Huet won the Hawks the Cup or would have said Leighton won us the Cup. What I do think is that if the Flyers did win the Cup with Leighton in net, he would be worth every penny at any price.

No, he wouldn't have been worth it, because Leighton wouldn't have been the vital key to winning that Cup. That run was all on the excellent performance of the skaters in front of him.


Last edited by Beef Invictus: 01-12-2012 at 05:40 PM. Reason: Changed phrasing, since they didn't win.
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01-12-2012, 05:34 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
How many games did Huet win in those playoffs compared to Niemi?

Huet's money could have just gone to a cheaper option and then they could have gotten more depth for their skaters, which in terms of team construction would be a wiser choice. Sure, hindsight makes it easy to say "it didn't matter" but at the time that would have been the smarter and safer use of those resources.

Huet was 26-14 (2.50, .895%) in his starts, and Niemi was 26-7 (2.25, .912%). Which goalie was better for their team? The one with the expensive cap hit, or the cheaper one who won a higher percentage of games and put up better stats? Huet was a crappy use of cap space, which is why Chicago hauled him off to Europe as soon as they possibly could.

I keep bringing up Huet because right now, that's the best comparison for Bryz; expensive goalie who's not playing well and is getting shown up by his young backup. I'm certainly not the first or only person to spy the similarities.
Lol you clearly missed the point. I'm also in the boat of people saying stupid things about cup winning teams.

"they could of used the money more wisely"

How can you get better than winning a cup. What if they bring in another player who destroys the chemistry of the team. It's all if's and buts. The flyers may have won the cup with emery in net. They may also have lost game 7 against the bruins. ect.

You can't say things like this as definite fact.

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01-12-2012, 05:41 PM
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Lol you clearly missed the point. I'm also in the boat of people saying stupid things about cup winning teams.

"they could of used the money more wisely"

How can you get better than winning a cup. What if they bring in another player who destroys the chemistry of the team. It's all if's and buts. The flyers may have won the cup with emery in net. They may also have lost game 7 against the bruins. ect.

You can't say things like this as definite fact.
It's better to be prepared beforehand. Pissing money away into bad contracts is a bad way to be prepared.

How could having one extra decent defensemen or forward possibly ruin chemistry?

Edit: It's easy to say in hindsight "They clearly spent all their money as best as they could!" But I still fail to see how that's true. Clearly, the Hawks management agrees. They got rid of him at the first opportunity. I'm sure if you check threads in their forum from that year, you'd find the Hawks fans would have preferred to see Huet's money spent somewhere else to fill a need; you know, to give them the best chance of winning. Huet's contract did NOT help prepare them to win a Cup. They just happened to win in spite of that fact. That doesn't strike me as an ideal model for GMing; good GMs shouldn't have to hope a team bails out their mistakes and wins anyways.


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