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[MTL/CGY] Cammalleri, Rämö & 2012 5th for Bourque, Holland & 2013 2nd ‎(Part II)

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Old
01-13-2012, 10:26 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
With our current roster and overall situation, you're crazy, but I don't think a 1st rd pick alone was enough either. A prospect/late 1st was the deal to seek.

Rene Bourque, won't be your favorite player, I'll guarantee you. This team needs a mini rebuild, not acquiring mediocre players on long term contracts for our best players.
When Cammalleri was traded by the Kings all he got was a later 1st round pick, and this is coming off a tremendous year.

Why do you expect him to get MORE than that with a bloated contract?

I don't have favourites. I like Bourque, he is a good player on a good contract.

-------------------

Once again, this whole fallacy of perception is absolutely ****ing ridiculous. What has Cammalleri done this season? What will he do next season for us? Nothing, and he will walk.

Getting a good, proven player (that funny enough gets the same goals/points as Cammalleri) plus a 2nd PLUS a decent prospect is a good deal for us.

--------------------

But welcome to HF....

Where proven 25/25 players are inferior to 15th-20th first round picks. LOL.

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01-13-2012, 10:26 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by SeriousHabs View Post
Name one team that would deal a late 1st (ie: top teams) and a prospect for 2 years of Cammalleri at $6M.

The team you choose must be able to absorb Cammy's salary, it must have a 1st round pick and a disposal prospect. Finally, it must have a reason to go for Cammy. I see no one that fits the bill tbh.

Also: we got a 2nd and a prospect. Drop the NHL12 mindset and stop thinkinh that Cammalleri could fetch top young talent.
You seriously need to wake up. It's not up to me to find a deal, that's up to our GM, but since he's proven he's completely incompetent, this is what we get. Cammy could fetch a young promising prospect without question, there is no doubt about it.

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01-13-2012, 10:27 AM
  #53
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ESPN's take:

http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...ke-habs-better

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01-13-2012, 10:29 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
The same logic with the Sergei kostitsyn trade and the Lats trade. SK was a 7th rd pick, be happy we're getting anything or, Pouliot was a 1st rd pick, it's a great trade, because we gave nothing for him doesn't mean you should completely squander an asset.
Not the same logic...SK and Lats were assets because we used draft picks on them and they were still RFAs. We could have kept them until they were UFAs if we chose to do so. I agree that those trades were bad. I wish both players were still with the Habs.

In today's NHL, young, talented RFAs are worth more to me than underachieving millionaire UFAs.

Even if you view Cammy as an asset, we did not completely squander the asset. Got bigger, cheaper player with similar output, improved our 5th rounder to a 2nd and got a prospect for a goalie in Russia that was likely never coming here. Also got rid of a guy who was not liked in the locker room as the media has been pointing out today. I am sure the other players did not think Cammy was pulling his weight.

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01-13-2012, 10:29 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
When Cammalleri was traded by the Kings all he got was a later 1st round pick, and this is coming off a tremendous year.

Why do you expect him to get MORE than that with a bloated contract?

I don't have favourites. I like Bourque, he is a good player on a good contract.

-------------------

Once again, this whole fallacy of perception is absolutely ****ing ridiculous. What has Cammalleri done this season? What will he do next season for us? Nothing, and he will walk.

Getting a good, proven player (that funny enough gets the same goals/points as Cammalleri) plus a 2nd is a good deal for us.

--------------------

But welcome to HF....

Where proven 25/25 players are inferior to 15th-20th first round picks. LOL.
I never once said that the pick alone is worth more than Bourque, nice strawman. What I said is, with the direction of this team, plummeting to the bottom of the league, making a trade to win now is stupid. It's lateral and it was a blown opportunity to do things right. If we were the flyers, adding Bourque woud likely be a good thing, but were not, we're a mess and we traded one of our better trading chips for junk.

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01-13-2012, 10:29 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
You seriously need to wake up. It's not up to me to find a deal, that's up to our GM, but since he's proven he's completely incompetent, this is what we get. Cammy could fetch a young promising prospect without question, there is no doubt about it.
Hey everybody! I am habsjunkie2 and I make absolutist statements without a shred of evidence to back it up.

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01-13-2012, 10:31 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
I never once said that the pick alone is worth more than Bourque, nice strawman. What I said is, with the direction of this team, plummeting to the bottom of the league, making a trade to win now is stupid. It's lateral and it was a blown opportunity to do things right. If we were the flyers, adding Bourque woud likely be a good thing, but were not, we're a mess and we traded one of our better trading chips for junk.
Why is it lateral?

Because we don't get a silly 1st rounder?

There was no strawman. You ASSERTED that a 1st rounder/prospect is superior to Bourque/2nd/prospect.

Simple deduction would clearly show that you value a 1st rounder more than Bourque.

Why does this trade mean win now? This is no more in the now than a 1st rounder, Bourque is signed for 4 years.

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01-13-2012, 10:31 AM
  #58
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Calgary Star's take .. they aren't very happy lol

http://thestar.blogs.com/thespin/

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01-13-2012, 10:35 AM
  #59
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The Flames board was basically vomiting at poster who proposed Cammy for Bourque hours before the trade actually was announced. Then the trade happened, and suddenly they all fell in love with Cammy.

Similarly, yesterday the concensus was that Cammy was an untradable asset that could fetch a maximum of a 3rd round pick. Now we are mad that he landed Bourque (we need size!) and a 2nd.

Yeah.

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01-13-2012, 10:35 AM
  #60
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Judging by the absolute **** storm this board throws at the "toughness and big player" argument, you would think this trade would be golden.

We just traded our arguably softest player for a hard-nosed winger.

We now have Kostitsyn, Cole, Pacioretty, and Bourque on the wings moving forward.

Where is the parade guys?

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01-13-2012, 10:36 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
You seriously need to wake up. It's not up to me to find a deal, that's up to our GM, but since he's proven he's completely incompetent, this is what we get. Cammy could fetch a young promising prospect without question, there is no doubt about it.
I know that Gauthier's job is to find the deal. His job isn't to magically create needs for teams that are doing fine at the moment. Selling Cammalleri to contenders is akin to selling snow to an Eskimo.

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01-13-2012, 10:37 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by SeriousHabs View Post
The Flames board was basically vomiting at poster who proposed Cammy for Bourque hours before the trade actually was announced. Then the trade happened, and suddenly they all fell in love with Cammy.

Similarly, yesterday the concensus was that Cammy was an untradable asset that could fetch a maximum of a 3rd round pick. Now we are mad that he landed Bourque (we need size!) and a 2nd.

Yeah.
I remember about a year ago reading a thread on the trade board about the value of Bourque to Montreal.

It was a consensus by the Flames fans that this was simply impossible, and that Rene was essentially untouchable; for the reasons that his contract was great, he put up consistent numbers, and was a vital part of the forward core.

Go figure.

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01-13-2012, 10:37 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
Judging by the absolute **** storm this board throws at the "toughness and big player" argument, you would think this trade would be golden.

We just traded our arguably softest player for a hard-nosed winger.

We now have Kostitsyn, Cole, Pacioretty, and Bourque on the wings moving forward.

Where is the parade guys?
I don't think there was a single poster who advocated getting rid of skill for the sake of getting big.

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01-13-2012, 10:40 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
I don't think there was a single poster who advocated getting rid of skill for the sake of getting big.
Yeah, that elite skill Cammalleri is giving us this year and probably next is completely irreplaceable.

And conversely, Bourque is just some freaking plug.

The same plug that has put up the same numbers year in and year out for the last 2 or 3 years as this skilled and gifted Cammalleri.

Your logic is pathetic.

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01-13-2012, 10:40 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
Why is it lateral?

Because we don't get a silly 1st rounder?

There was no strawman. You ASSERTED that a 1st rounder/prospect is superior to Bourque/2nd/prospect.

Simple deduction would clearly show that you value a 1st rounder more than Bourque.

Why does this trade mean win now? This is no more in the now than a 1st rounder, Bourque is signed for 4 years.
It's lateral because it doesn't make us any better now or down the road. He's a lesser quality player who takes more nights off than Kovalev. Should prepare us well for the fight for 13th, but I'd rather get something that positions us to be successful at some point in the near future, this doesn't do it.

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01-13-2012, 10:41 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
Judging by the absolute **** storm this board throws at the "toughness and big player" argument, you would think this trade would be golden.

We just traded our arguably softest player for a hard-nosed winger.

We now have Kostitsyn, Cole, Pacioretty, and Bourque on the wings moving forward.

Where is the parade guys?
What do you mean by moving forwards? I don't think Kostitsyn will resign and Gionta is still on the books.

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01-13-2012, 10:41 AM
  #67
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Gary Joyce's take

http://www.sportsnet.ca/magazine/201..._empire_joyce/

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01-13-2012, 10:43 AM
  #68
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Wait so the last few weeks we've seen people complain about

1. Cap space
2. Size
3. the need to tank

In one move, the habs cleared cap space, have gotten bigger and according to many have made the team worse which in theory should help with the tank...what's the problem here?

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01-13-2012, 10:44 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
It's lateral because it doesn't make us any better now or down the road. He's a lesser quality player who takes more nights off than Kovalev. Should prepare us well for the fight for 13th, but I'd rather get something that positions us to be successful at some point in the near future, this doesn't do it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeriousHabs View Post
What do you mean by moving forwards? I don't think Kostitsyn will resign and Gionta is still on the books.
Moving forward is an expression pertaining to the future...

Assuming Kostitsyn is signed (which I believe he will be considering he is a low cost asset and has obvious chem with Eller), we now have 4 players who drive to the net, and use their size (Pacioretty hasn't lately but that is another matter).

Having Gionta is irrelevant to this discussion.

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01-13-2012, 10:45 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
Yeah, that elite skill Cammalleri is giving us this year and probably next is completely irreplaceable.

And conversely, Bourque is just some freaking plug.

The same plug that has put up the same numbers year in and year out for the last 2 or 3 years as this skilled and gifted Cammalleri.

Your logic is pathetic.
No your logic is pathetic. Players don't play in a vacuum. When Cammy played for Calgary he scored at a much greater rate than Bourque, he's easily the better player, he's struggling, no doubt about it, our entire team is.

You acting like cammy isn't a skilled forward shows your bias. The Montreal Canadiens stifle many good goal scorers.

Do you think Rene Bourque is a 27 goal scorer in Montreal? Do you?

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01-13-2012, 10:47 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
Wait so the last few weeks we've seen people complain about

1. Cap space
2. Size
3. the need to tank

In one move, the habs cleared cap space, have gotten bigger and according to many have made the team worse which in theory should help with the tank...what's the problem here?
The team may not be worse, but they're not any better and this does very little to make the team better long term.

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01-13-2012, 10:47 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
It's lateral because it doesn't make us any better now or down the road. He's a lesser quality player who takes more nights off than Kovalev. Should prepare us well for the fight for 13th, but I'd rather get something that positions us to be successful at some point in the near future, this doesn't do it.
This trade does make us better down the road.

This is called asset management. Cammalleri is worth very little to us for the remainder of his contract because:

1) We won't be making the playoffs this season so he is useless this season.
2) He doesn't seem to have any professionalism here and is not buying into the team.
3) He will walk at the end of his contract.

Conversely, we just got a player arguably a minor notch below, which fits a need, an improvement in bigger wingers. In addition we got a 2nd player (yipppeeeee plan the parade habsjunkie) and a prospect.

I seriously don't understand any of your logic, by what you are saying, you should like this trade.

Is the difference between a first and a second rounder really that ridiculously significant in your warped mind?

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01-13-2012, 10:48 AM
  #73
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Although we'll have to wait a few games to at least catch a glimpse of whether this trade was really good or bad in the near term, I feel that this was a trade the Habs had to make.

Cammalleri was playing horrible hockey all year for the Habs.
- He was probably our least effective forechecker
- He was probably our softest forward in all three zones
- He was probably one of our least effective players in the defensive zone.
- He never went to the hard areas to score goals
- He wasn't scoring enough from the perimeter
- He wasn't effective on the PP or the PK
...

Then what was he doing that was good with all the ice time he wanted? A bit of flair here and there, and scoring sporadically.

I know he has a ton of talent... good hands and a great shot, specifically, but if he's not scoring, then there's almost no reason to play him... That's probably one of the main reasons he saw his ice time dwindle under Cunneyworth. Why not play a forward who can at least hold his own defensively and gain control of the puck in the O-zone like Darche?

I like the trade for Bourque. I'm from Edmonton and have seen a fair bit of Bourque over the past couple seasons when he played against the Oilers. Like Gauthier has said, Bourque addresses some serious issues in Montreal. He's big... He goes hard to the net to score goals... He hits and forechecks well... He's pretty effective on the PK and in his own zone most nights.

Knowing that he makes 2.7 million less than Cammalleri and that he brings something that Montreal desperately needs. I don't see a great reason not to like this trade for Montreal. I think both teams will benefit from this trade though because both players needed a change of scenery. Both players had attitude issues and the change of scenery will probably help both of them with that.

We also got a 2nd rounder.

This trade has got to be one thousand times better than the Ribeiro - Niinimaa trade that I knew was complete (@#*@&*&@ off that bat.

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01-13-2012, 10:48 AM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
Moving forward is an expression pertaining to the future...

Assuming Kostitsyn is signed (which I believe he will be considering he is a low cost asset and has obvious chem with Eller), we now have 4 players who drive to the net, and use their size (Pacioretty hasn't lately but that is another matter).

Having Gionta is irrelevant to this discussion.
Gionta's salary makes him very relevant. If he stays in Montreal, he will be on the top6. That is fairly relevant.

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01-13-2012, 10:49 AM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
Judging by the absolute **** storm this board throws at the "toughness and big player" argument, you would think this trade would be golden.

We just traded our arguably softest player for a hard-nosed winger.

We now have Kostitsyn, Cole, Pacioretty, and Bourque on the wings moving forward.

Where is the parade guys?
It won't come... Being negative is way more fun. Soon enough people will complain we're not soft enough.

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