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[MTL/CGY] Cammalleri, Rämö & 2012 5th for Bourque, Holland & 2013 2nd ‎(Part II)

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01-13-2012, 10:49 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
No your logic is pathetic. Players don't play in a vacuum. When Cammy played for Calgary he scored at a much greater rate than Bourque, he's easily the better player, he's struggling, no doubt about it, our entire team is.

You acting like cammy isn't a skilled forward shows your bias. The Montreal Canadiens stifle many good goal scorers.

Do you think Rene Bourque is a 27 goal scorer in Montreal? Do you?
What Cammalleri does/did in Calgary has no bearing whatsoever on our team.

Everything else in your post is pure speculation or assertion that is not worth responding to.

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01-13-2012, 10:49 AM
  #77
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The team may not be worse, but they're not any better and this does very little to make the team better long term.
Isn't that the point of tanking? If Bourque is as terrible as portrayed, the habs will continue sliding and get a high pick that will help in the long term? This is the logic I've been preached these last few months. All of a sudden it's a problem.

They also got a second round pick, which people have complained that the team has traded too many of them because 2nd round picks get good players for the long term.

This should be a win for everyone based on what people were whining about these last few months: Size, Cap space, need for lottery pick, you asked and Gauthier delivered.

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01-13-2012, 10:50 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by HomaridII View Post
This was posted yesterday before the trade and as nothing to do with the trade at all.. I have no idea who Gary Joyce is but it was worth the read..

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01-13-2012, 10:50 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
I don't think there was a single poster who advocated getting rid of skill for the sake of getting big.
It's incredible, until yesterday Cammalleri was not only the softest forward on the team, but also one dimensional and one of the examples of how our skill is overrated, giving us no excuse for being "smurfs"

Now he's an ultra skilled superstar.

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01-13-2012, 10:50 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by SeriousHabs View Post
Gionta's salary makes him very relevant. If he stays in Montreal, he will be on the top6. That is fairly relevant.
I never said ALL OF YOUR FORWARDS HAVE TO BE HUGE.

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01-13-2012, 10:51 AM
  #81
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The team may not be worse, but they're not any better and this does very little to make the team better long term.
I am still waiting for this question to be answered:

What significant difference is there between a mid to late first round pick and a second round pick?

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01-13-2012, 10:52 AM
  #82
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People complain we traded Cammalleri at his lowest value point, however is that what Calgary is doing with Bourque as well? If he can get back to his 45-50 points that is pretty good for just over $3 million a year.

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01-13-2012, 10:55 AM
  #83
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Bourque 6' 2"
Cole 6' 2"
Pacioretty 6' 2"
Eller 6' 2"
Moen 6' 2"
Kostitsyn 6' 0"
White 6' 0"

I'm starting to like this. More tall forwards, less midgets and if they could replace the useless 4th liners like Darche, Nokelainen and Blunden who never fight with guys that can drop the gloves, we would be heading in the right direction.

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Old
01-13-2012, 10:55 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
Isn't that the point of tanking? If Bourque is as terrible as portrayed, the habs will continue sliding and get a high pick that will help in the long term? This is the logic I've been preached these last few months. All of a sudden it's a problem.

They also got a second round pick, which people have complained that the team has traded too many of them because 2nd round picks get good players for the long term.

This should be a win for everyone based on what people were whining about these last few months: Size, Cap space, need for lottery pick, you asked and Gauthier delivered.
I never suggested tanking. i know you like to throw that word around to discredit people who don't like our current direction, but no the point of a rebuild isn't to pick up worse players on longer contracts. It's to trade vet contract for younger potential, in hopes that they grow together and turn into something special.

You think acquiring worse players on a longer contract is what people who want to rebuild meant?

Gauthier hasn't delivered anything but a mess, this sin't what anyone wanted and you dman well know it, but you support every move, every time, no matter how stupid. You probably think trading someone during the 2nd intermission is also a sign of sound managerial preparation.

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01-13-2012, 10:56 AM
  #85
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We only have 2 players under 6'0'' in our current lineup: Plekanec 5'11'' and Desharnais 5'7''

Replace just one of Gionta or Desharnais and we can't be called 'smurfs' anymore.

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01-13-2012, 10:58 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by 68 View Post
Bourque 6' 2"
Cole 6' 2"
Pacioretty 6' 2"
Eller 6' 2"
Moen 6' 2"
Kostitsyn 6' 0"
White 6' 0"

I'm starting to like this. More tall forwards, less midgets and if they could replace the useless 4th liners like Darche, Nokelainen and Blunden who never fight with guys that can drop the gloves, we would be heading in the right direction.
You want to know what is funny?

Gauthier is gonna take this team from SHORT WIMP MIDGETS...TO A TEAM OF big WIMPS....


Gauthier thinks size now is the way....only thing all his size is SOFT.

Only one is Moen ....White if he ever gets back, but even still

Gauthier fails to see size doesnt equal tough .....just the same way he thought Smurf's we 're great

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01-13-2012, 11:00 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
I am still waiting for this question to be answered:

What significant difference is there between a mid to late first round pick and a second round pick?


The 2nd rd pick is next years. The late 1st rd pick wasn't the only thing we could of gotten imo. Rene Bourque doesn't help anything either, I'm in favor of a rebuild as this team isn't cut out to do what is required to win a cup, trading for long term contracts of 30 year olds is detrimental to that cause.

I don't want to play for 8th anymore, this shows that management is continued down the same failed path they been spinning their tires on for the past 7 years. Enough is enough.

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01-13-2012, 11:00 AM
  #88
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I was busy having wild sex last night and this morning so I'm late with this but

I really like this trade. Even if it were Cammy for Bourque straight up I wouldn't mind. Cammy is the better player but Bourque fits our needs. The 2nd rounder and cap relief is icing on the cake.

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01-13-2012, 11:00 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
Yeah, that elite skill Cammalleri is giving us this year and probably next is completely irreplaceable.

And conversely, Bourque is just some freaking plug.

The same plug that has put up the same numbers year in and year out for the last 2 or 3 years as this skilled and gifted Cammalleri.

Your logic is pathetic.
Hear hear!

Cammy brings very little to the table other than his one-timer/snapshot. It's a huge factor though because the game is to score and for that half-a-second it could make all the difference. When he's not scoring however... he draws attention to himself because of his reputation but brings nothing else. No physical play, no defensive play, no playmaking, no dangling, no puck carrying. Nothing, nada, zip.

At 6m a year he's as bad as Gomez when he's not scoring.

If he doesn't score in Calgary this will be a tremendously lopsided trade.

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01-13-2012, 11:00 AM
  #90
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Part of the reason goal scorers struggle in Montreal is because there is too many of the same type of player. Of course there numbers will lower when every guy on the line is trying to do the same thing, when there is noone to set up players - just small one dimensional scorers who rely on being streaky.

Look at how a player like Cole who brings variety to the lineup has thrived by using speed and skill and size. He's able to battle and fly through defenses to create his own chances. Kovalev could do this, too. Kostitsyn can do it. Robert Lang. Even Tanguay (who had an impressive .8 PPG here while getting screwed around by Carbonneau and battling injury..). All sorts of different offensive players who brought something different to the table do/did just fine here.

Is it any surprise that a line of Cammalleri-Gomez-Gionta, or Cammalleri-Plekanec-Gionta, etc would struggle to put up huge numbers? Not really. Especially when the head coach would use them to play against their strengths. You don't put Cammalleri out as a shutdown winger. You need to get him out against 2nd or 3rd line opposition, because he's not dynamic enough to mess up defences on his own! Doesn't have the speed (might be something to do with shotty knees) the size or the agressive nature to do it alone.

Problem is we pay our complimentary payers superstar cash, Gauthier is fixing that problem by bringing in or locking up guys who produce the same amount as Cammy, etc (such as Cole and now Bourque and hopefully Kostitsyn) for 2-3 million cheaper.

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01-13-2012, 11:00 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by 68 View Post
Bourque 6' 2"
Cole 6' 2"
Pacioretty 6' 2"
Eller 6' 2"
Moen 6' 2"
Kostitsyn 6' 0"
White 6' 0"

I'm starting to like this. More tall forwards, less midgets and if they could replace the useless 4th liners like Darche, Nokelainen and Blunden who never fight with guys that can drop the gloves, we would be heading in the right direction.
It is taller, but it is still very soft.

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01-13-2012, 11:05 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by 68 View Post
I'm starting to like this. More tall forwards, less midgets and if they could replace the useless 4th liners like Darche, Nokelainen and Blunden who never fight with guys that can drop the gloves, we would be heading in the right direction.
Agreed. I don't get it. Every time this team has been successful they have a good fourth line. A gritty, cerebral fourth line centre who can move up and down the lineup. One of Gauthier's biggest mistakes was not signing someone for that space this year. He recognized it and tried to fix it but Nokelainen is dime a dozen and NOT the player for that job. Obviously white being injured has been annoying, as he's also part of exactly what we need.

If the fourth line isn't going to be a gritty energy line anchored by a reliable centre (HALPERN was perfect. Perfect.) than it should at least, hopefully next year, be an interesting kid line that gets 10-12 minutes a night. This would be assuming Gauthier assembles a top-notch two-way third line anchored around Moen and a gritty two-way centre.

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01-13-2012, 11:05 AM
  #93
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Uh oh. Rene Bourque took Kovalev's #27.

Protest to ensue? Gauthier

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01-13-2012, 11:05 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Habaneros View Post
You want to know what is funny?

Gauthier is gonna take this team from SHORT WIMP MIDGETS...TO A TEAM OF big WIMPS....


Gauthier thinks size now is the way....only thing all his size is SOFT.

Only one is Moen ....White if he ever gets back, but even still

Gauthier fails to see size doesnt equal tough .....just the same way he though Smurf's we 're great
Size doesn't equal toughness, you are correct, but fighting does not equal toughness either.

I do like the group of forwards listed - lots of big, gritty, talented players with a nose for the net. However, the team is still small down the middle (our 2 smallest players are our top 2 centres). Get one big guy in the same hold to be the team's star forward, and maybe add in another heavyweight in the bottom 6 to get rid of Mathieu Darche.

And fix up the D. I agree with you that the D is absolutely soft. Everyone outside Emelin, Gorges, maybe Gill, and Subban can definitely be classified as a "wimp".

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01-13-2012, 11:06 AM
  #95
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If the Avs traded for R. Bourque and won the cup, so can we!

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01-13-2012, 11:06 AM
  #96
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It's incredible, until yesterday Cammalleri was not only the softest forward on the team, but also one dimensional and one of the examples of how our skill is overrated, giving us no excuse for being "smurfs"

Now he's an ultra skilled superstar.
Where did I say that? I don't think you can argue the fact that cammy is highly skilled. I haven't seen a single analyst disagree that Cammy was the most skilled player in the deal, rather easily. I've always said pleks, cammy, gionta are skilled guys individually, but collectively they don't work, because they're all too small, one or two midgets is fine, but I didn't suggest trading a guy like him for a lateral less skilled player, ever. Suggesting others have is flat out lying.

You realize the fan base is pretty large right? There is going to be varying opinions, because some people feel one way, doesn't mean the rest do, so these assumptions that yesterday you all said bla bla bla and today you are all saying bla bla bla isn't accurate. No need to paint everyone the same.

Listen to the fan 590. Hard to disagree with anything they're saying. It's on right now and I agree 100%.

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01-13-2012, 11:07 AM
  #97
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Size doesn't equal toughness, you are correct, but fighting does not equal toughness either.

I do like the group of forwards listed - lots of big, gritty, talented players with a nose for the net. However, the team is still small down the middle (our 2 smallest players are our top 2 centres). Get one big guy in the same hold to be the team's star forward, and maybe add in another heavyweight in the bottom 6 to get rid of Mathieu Darche.

And fix up the D. I agree with you that the D is absolutely soft. Everyone outside Emelin, Gorges, maybe Gill, and Subban can definitely be classified as a "wimp".
They're all wimps at this point, except for Gorges and Emelin.


And yes, I love Subban, but he's making soft plays all the time.

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01-13-2012, 11:08 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Dwight View Post
Size doesn't equal toughness, you are correct, but fighting does not equal toughness either.

I do like the group of forwards listed - lots of big, gritty, talented players with a nose for the net. However, the team is still small down the middle (our 2 smallest players are our top 2 centres). Get one big guy in the same hold to be the team's star forward, and maybe add in another heavyweight in the bottom 6 to get rid of Mathieu Darche.

And fix up the D. I agree with you that the D is absolutely soft. Everyone outside Emelin, Gorges, maybe Gill, and Subban can definitely be classified as a "wimp".

Pk Subban and Pacman want to play more like BOSTON...what does that say ..


Montreal can boast were all over 6ft now...but still the same team when the sledding gets tough ...

Vancouver has a pretty tall team, but Bruins seem to eat them up .

The Habs need more tough...not more tall...

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01-13-2012, 11:08 AM
  #99
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However, the team is still small down the middle (our 2 smallest players are our top 2 centres). Get one big guy in the same hold to be the team's star forward, and maybe add in another heavyweight in the bottom 6 to get rid of Mathieu Darche.
With Cammalleri gone and Gomez likely on his way out... how long before Vinny to Montreal rumours restart?

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01-13-2012, 11:10 AM
  #100
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It is taller, but it is still very soft.
I would disagree they play hard and if you can mix in a useful player that can fight in the bottom six and some toughness on defence it makes everyone tougher. Look at the bruins, 3/4 of them are ******* but can be tough because they have guys backing them up and when they do fight it is someone within their range of fighting ability.

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