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Old
01-13-2012, 05:12 AM
  #76
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the guy sucked in Boston, sucked even more in Carolina, what were you guys expecting exaclty ?

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01-13-2012, 05:30 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by LMFAO View Post
the guy sucked in Boston, sucked even more in Carolina, what were you guys expecting exaclty ?

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=605670
Quote:
When the power play isn't working, it affects the team's morale, so it even starts to affect your play at 5-on-5," Gauthier said before boarding the team flight to New Jersey, where the Canadiens face the Devils on Saturday afternoon. "Everything needs to work. Our goalies are good, we're strong on the penalty kill and we play well at 5-on-5. So there are a lot of things that are going well. We had one weakness, and we know in part that's because Mr. Markov is not playing, but we had to address it."

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However, Gauthier and Martin both pointed to how well Kaberle played in helping the Bruins win the Stanley Cup, even though the defenseman's minutes were severely cut by Bruins coach Claude Julien as the playoffs moved along last spring. In fact, Kaberle did not top 20 minutes in ice time once after Game 5 of the first round against the Canadiens -- a series that the Bruins won without scoring a single power-play goal.

"He played very well for Boston; they won the Stanley Cup," Gauthier said. "And if you look at his statistics, it's actually encouraging that when he joined a good club he performed in his role. He was able to adapt relatively quickly."


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He had a good season last year, both with Toronto and with Boston," Gauthier said. "His season in Toronto was very respectable, and in Boston he joined a strong club and contributed in his way. He had a slow start this season, but everyone in Carolina had a slow start. Mr. Kaberle has also played better of late, he has four points in his last two games, so his season appears to have been kick started."

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01-13-2012, 08:36 AM
  #78
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amazing isn't it...

Gauthier's evaluation of Kaberle sounds exactly like the kind of stat line cherry picking fans on this board often do.

I wonder if those who once defended Gauthier, arguing things like "NHL GM's do more than just look at the stats..." will change their song after reading those lines.


Gauthier is showing, day after day, that he is clueless in the role of GM, it's really quite pathetic.

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01-13-2012, 08:48 AM
  #79
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I still am not mad about the trade in principle. He came in when we we're close a playoff spot to help our powerplay. We didn't give up much for him.

He has 12 points in his last 17 games (9 points in 14 games as a Hab). If you work out his Hab PPG total over the course of a full-season, you get; 53-points. And that should only improve when Markov returns.

We also gave up next to nothing for him, except cap space.

The thing that I do not like, is that if we are going to be paying him $4.5M per season, why is he only playing 11-15 minutes per game? He's surely capable of more, he's done it his whole career. He is a career +17 (+33 if you include the playoffs). We know he's not great defensively, but he's obviously good enough offensively to counter-act the +/-.

I'm not saying he's a savior, but on a team that struggles to score, give him a bit more ice-time and maybe something good will come of it. At this point, I'd put him with Gorges. Subban has been struggling with those minutes lately anyway - not to mention, Gill-Subban has worked in the past when they weren't the #1 pairing.

Kaberle - Gorges
Gill - Subban
Emelin - Diaz
Weber

That would be my defense going forward.

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01-13-2012, 09:05 AM
  #80
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There's a lot that doesn't make sense about this player. He's good and to some very good. I think the powerplay was ranked 28th when he arrived. Today and after being ranked 30th for a little bit it's climbed up to 29th. I guess a dramatic improvement to me would have been to see it wander up the 25th while winning more games.

But hey........whatever works to lose. This 7 D arrangement is interesting. The Habs have this offensive threat in Kaberle, fall behind early and he plays 11 - 16 minutes. I would think you would keep this offensive stalwart that you're paying 4.25 on the ice for at least 20 minutes. Diaz played more than Kaberle last night.

I don't get it unless he just isn't the player that he's hyped up to be. LOL

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01-13-2012, 09:08 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by swimmer77 View Post
There's a lot that doesn't make sense about this player. He's good and to some very good. I think the powerplay was ranked 28th when he arrived. Today and after being ranked 30th for a little bit it's climbed up to 29th. I guess a dramatic improvement to me would have been to see it wander up the 25th while winning more games.

But hey........whatever works to lose. This 7 D arrangement is interesting. The Habs have this offensive threat in Kaberle, fall behind early and he plays 11 - 16 minutes. I would think you would keep this offensive stalwart that you're paying 4.25 on the ice for at least 20 minutes. Diaz played more than Kaberle last night.

I don't get it unless he just isn't the player that he's hyped up to be. LOL
Diaz is much better than him. That's why he plays more.

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01-13-2012, 09:20 AM
  #82
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Diaz is much better than him. That's why he plays more.
I know - thus my last line previously.

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01-13-2012, 09:24 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
I still am not mad about the trade in principle. He came in when we we're close a playoff spot to help our powerplay. We didn't give up much for him.

He has 12 points in his last 17 games (9 points in 14 games as a Hab). If you work out his Hab PPG total over the course of a full-season, you get; 53-points. And that should only improve when Markov returns.

We also gave up next to nothing for him, except cap space.

The thing that I do not like, is that if we are going to be paying him $4.5M per season, why is he only playing 11-15 minutes per game? He's surely capable of more, he's done it his whole career. He is a career +17 (+33 if you include the playoffs). We know he's not great defensively, but he's obviously good enough offensively to counter-act the +/-.

I'm not saying he's a savior, but on a team that struggles to score, give him a bit more ice-time and maybe something good will come of it. At this point, I'd put him with Gorges. Subban has been struggling with those minutes lately anyway - not to mention, Gill-Subban has worked in the past when they weren't the #1 pairing.

Kaberle - Gorges
Gill - Subban
Emelin - Diaz
Weber

That would be my defense going forward.
I think once Markov is back he will be moved. As long as there are no further complications.

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01-13-2012, 12:35 PM
  #84
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Over four million for a guy who cant play a regular defensive shift. Glad we have a few more years to look forward to that. What else is new, a Montreal GM getting other GM's throwaways thinking **** will turn into solid gold. I dont think its worked once in Montreal.

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01-13-2012, 12:56 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Kirk Muller View Post
Over four million for a guy who cant play a regular defensive shift. Glad we have a few more years to look forward to that. What else is new, a Montreal GM getting other GM's throwaways thinking **** will turn into solid gold. I dont think its worked once in Montreal.
Kaberle is no longer a #1 or 2 guy, but he can play #3-4 minutes and be a factor on the PP.

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01-13-2012, 01:06 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Kaberle is no longer a #1 or 2 guy, but he can play #3-4 minutes and be a factor on the PP.
hasnt shown to be capable most nights. He is playing 5-6 minutes and a PP specialist role. A role that has seen the PP actually get worse since his arrival.

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01-13-2012, 01:10 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Kirk Muller View Post
hasnt shown to be capable most nights. He is playing 5-6 minutes and a PP specialist role. A role that has seen the PP actually get worse since his arrival.
Mostly because they have been dressing 7 d-men trying to keep guys(Gill and Campoli) happy and maintain their trade value.

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01-13-2012, 01:25 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Mostly because they have been dressing 7 d-men trying to keep guys(Gill and Campoli) happy and maintain their trade value.
thats debatable. Or they are trying to insulate him from playing those minutes because he has been ineffective doing so.

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01-13-2012, 06:22 PM
  #89
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Kaberle is averaging over 18 minutes a night on the season... hardly the 5 or 6 that the poster is talking about.

Even dressing 7 D, he's been averaging over 13 minutes.


A 50 pt dman who plays 16-18 minutes for 4.25 million is a bargain.

If he was a 25+ minute man getting 50 pts, he'd be worth 7 million.

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01-13-2012, 06:25 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
A 50 pt dman who plays 16-18 minutes for 4.25 million is a bargain.
was.

I see him quickly becoming neither a 50 pt defenseman, nor one that "earns" close to 18 mins per night, so I find it hard to look at that $4.25 million as a bargain going forward.

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01-13-2012, 06:30 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
was.

I see him quickly becoming neither a 50 pt defenseman, nor one that "earns" close to 18 mins per night, so I find it hard to look at that $4.25 million as a bargain going forward.
Well, he's (pro-rated, of course) he's on pace for 53-points over a full season if you take his Montreal Canadiens stats. 9 points in 14 games.

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Originally Posted by Kirk Muller View Post
hasnt shown to be capable most nights. He is playing 5-6 minutes and a PP specialist role. A role that has seen the PP actually get worse since his arrival.
Someone posted in the other thread that our PP is like 6% since he came (not on the season, just in that time period). Something like 17% since he arrived to 11.5% before.

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01-13-2012, 06:33 PM
  #92
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Well, he's (pro-rated, of course) he's on pace for 53-points over a full season if you take his Montreal Canadiens stats. 9 points in 14 games.
I'm not concerned as much with the 14 games he has played as I am with the 200+ he has ahead of him in a Habs jersey, but point taken I guess. Points disappear quickly when your play causes your coach to use other options more during the ~85% of the game that's played at even strength. And without those points (as demonstrative of importance as pockets full of 2nd assists can be), what does Kaberle really offer to a defensive unit trying to make it harder for the other team to score?

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01-13-2012, 08:09 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
Kaberle is averaging over 18 minutes a night on the season... hardly the 5 or 6 that the poster is talking about.

Even dressing 7 D, he's been averaging over 13 minutes.


A 50 pt dman who plays 16-18 minutes for 4.25 million is a bargain.

If he was a 25+ minute man getting 50 pts, he'd be worth 7 million.
Seeing as he isnt a 50 point defenseman, hasnt been one since 2007-2008 and is barely playing 15 minutes a night in Montreal, its hard to call it a bargain. Heck he is on pace for 34 so far this year.

Guess we will figure out which is the right Kaberle. The one with 5 points in his first 4 games, or the one who has 4 in points in the last 10 games. I see the later as his ice time continues to be cut and the PP continues to get worse.

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01-14-2012, 02:10 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
was.

I see him quickly becoming neither a 50 pt defenseman, nor one that "earns" close to 18 mins per night, so I find it hard to look at that $4.25 million as a bargain going forward.
He's on a 50 pt pace since joining the habs

He scored 47 pts last year

He was on a 50 pts pace the year before that but missed time with injury

He scored 49 pts the year before that.

He was on a 50 pt pace the year before that but again missed 25 games with injury

He scored 53 pts before that.


Remarkably consistent and 33 years old... why do we assume his production will suddenly stop?

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01-14-2012, 02:12 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Kirk Muller View Post
Seeing as he isnt a 50 point defenseman, hasnt been one since 2007-2008 and is barely playing 15 minutes a night in Montreal, its hard to call it a bargain. Heck he is on pace for 34 so far this year.

Guess we will figure out which is the right Kaberle. The one with 5 points in his first 4 games, or the one who has 4 in points in the last 10 games. I see the later as his ice time continues to be cut and the PP continues to get worse.
47 and 49 in his two full season.... 1 pt and 3 pts off.. woopity do.

The other two seasons he was on pace for over 50 pts but got hurt.

His numbers are very very steady.

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01-14-2012, 02:21 AM
  #96
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He's not in shape.

He has trouble in the defensive zone and our PP isnt better with him.

He has couple secondary assist thought...

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01-14-2012, 02:37 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
He's on a 50 pt pace since joining the habs

He scored 47 pts last year

He was on a 50 pts pace the year before that but missed time with injury

He scored 49 pts the year before that.

He was on a 50 pt pace the year before that but again missed 25 games with injury

He scored 53 pts before that.


Remarkably consistent and 33 years old... why do we assume his production will suddenly stop?
Stop watching hockeydb.com, and start watching hockey games... he's not good enough defensively anymore to get earn enough minutes to put up that many points. That's about all I can help you with there, except to add/reiterate that "on pace" means nothing. No one gets credit for games they miss due to injury or suspension as they are realities of the game, and no one gets credit for games they haven't even played yet because anything (including prolonged slumps/illness/injury) can happen. I mean, we can't refer to Crosby as a 130 pt player, even though he was "on pace" last year, because he has never actually gotten above 120.

Thomas Kaberle was a 50 point defenseman. Now he's an offense defenseman who is a soft, defensive liability. If the talent is still there, maybe he can recapture some of his past glory, but the same thing was also said about Scott Gomez (who is in a comparable situation to Kaberle, albeit the forward version).

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01-14-2012, 03:00 AM
  #98
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Especially with defenseman, whose value is even less reflected by points.

I didn`t have a problem with the trade when it happened because it was designed to fix the team`s one major weakness at the time (terrible powerplay) while their even strength and penalty killing was strong and the team wasn`t far out of the playoff race. There would be a pretty decent chance you could pump up Kaberle`s numbers and rehabilitate him into an approximation of the guy that played in Toronto that you could flip to a team that needed someone like him in the off-season.

It became a much worse move when you fire Martin the week afterward and replace him with an assistant that`s never been a head coach in the NHL before. Even if Cunneyworth becomes a good coach there was bound to be a tough transition period as he finds his feet, especially if you want to drastically change the team system at the same time. The resulting losing streak essentially killed the playoffs as a possibility so any value you got from bringing Kaberle in to save a season was lost and you`d be better off not doing it so you`d have more manoeuvring room in the off-season.

I lost a lot of faith in PG that week. Up to then most of his moves were either pretty good or at least understandable reactions to bad situations.

Now probably the best to hope for is that Montreal can bring Kaberle`s value high enough again that they can dump him at the deadline to a playoff team that needs puckmovement on defense.
This is pretty bang on. Me and the few other Martin supporters pointed it out the whole time. The team was not that good and he was making us better than we were. Now that he is gone we can see just how important he was.

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01-14-2012, 03:07 AM
  #99
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His passes go to Subban to die. He is great on a powerplay but he gets no help. I think he is a fine 2nd pairing guy but not on a team that has it's best dman (gorges) babysitting Subban. Kaberle wasn't brough in to be tough, he is offensive dman with a good pass and that is why he only cost garbage.

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01-14-2012, 09:25 AM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
This is pretty bang on. Me and the few other Martin supporters pointed it out the whole time. The team was not that good and he was making us better than we were. Now that he is gone we can see just how important he was.
Important? You want a basement dwelling team that overachieves to 8th place? I want a winning team. Exposing this team for what it is - is the best thing we could've done.

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