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Is there really a correct skating style?

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Old
01-13-2012, 02:40 PM
  #26
Jarick
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Awesome discussion guys.

I've always been taught to "click the heels" when skating, but I have seen a lot of excellent skaters with wider legs. Notably a lot of younger players who are very strong skaters and fast too.

That video was very interesting. I noticed on the "narrow" stride they don't have full extension. But I really want to try this tonight if there's ice and if I'm not dead from lifting.

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01-13-2012, 07:01 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by CornKicker View Post
this is the complete opposite of what you should be doing.

too many instructors teach pull the rope with your arms and push back. you should be swinging your arms side to side and push outwards to the side to build speed as well as maintain balance.
What you are advocating (besides where to buy Bracko's DVD) is the complete opposite of what speed skaters do. And speed skating is now a scientific sport for the most part.

While not exactly the same thing, watch a 100 meter dash and you'll see runners move their arms straight forward. It is physics. Science.

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01-13-2012, 07:04 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Stickmata View Post
Either you didn't understand what I was trying to say or I said it poorly. I wasn't talking about pushing to the side or to the back. Obviously I push to the side. What I was talking about was how far back under you do you return the skate. I've had power skating coaches talk about bringing it fully back under you so that a) you get a longer stride and b) you get the front skate flatter and get better glide than you do if you're more on the edge of the front skate. I've taken two different clinics where this was taught, yet when I actually watch the best skaters closely or in slo mo, they don't bring that foot back all the way under them, they actually stay wider than that.

To me, this is akin to the old saying in baseball about hitting - i.e., 'hit the top half of the baseball', which isn't meant literally. It's meant to be a thought trigger to make sure the hitter goes straight to the ball without dropping their hands below. You want dead square contact, but you get it by mentally thinking about keeping your hands high and hitting the top half of the ball.

The other thing I notice about skating that I constantly try to point out to my son to improve how strong he is on his skates, is how much time a strong player or pro player spends with his feet spread and on his inside edges. They are in that position the vast majority of the time on the ice. The amount of time a pro player spends up on his blades with either of his feet really under him is very small. It's really shocking when you really focus on it during a game.
i did misread what you wrote, my bad

in teh BRacko seminars i went to he was showing the science behind the stride. the way he was showing it is that you do not need to bring your skate under you. there is an invisble line right down teh middle of your body, if your skate crosses this line (ie your right skate comes under your body onto the left side of the invisible line) you lose power. you lose power because you cannot push yet, you have to wait for your leg to be at a proper angle for you to effectlively push again. I dont remember the exact numbers but each stride was wasting .06 seconds or something, which seems miniscule but over 15-20 strides were talking a second of difference. the first drill we did on ice after the seminar was he lined 20 cones and we had to skate over them with a leg on each side and you couldnt touch the pilons. basically the pilons were a separater and you couldnt bring your legs together. i encourage any of you to just try it once. i honestly felt more power from my stride, i played hockey for 20+ years and i could feel the difference. when i started playing with my regular team again they noticed a difference.

obviously everyone is different but i do encourage everyone to try this basis for skating.

during the presentation he was showing before and after videos of women from teh canadian national team. posting their speed etc before and after changing their skating styles, you dont need a testomonial for that, you can see it on teh videos. he also pulled video from teh fastest skater comp for the last 4 years. every single player skated the exact same way. it was really eye opening to see.

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01-13-2012, 07:07 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by nyk16 View Post
This thread is vitally important IMO. Thanks to r3cc0s for starting it. We now have 2 conflicting theories:

1. The Laura Stamm method (that I have always been taught) - start with feet closer together, arms back and forth - see video posted by Steehead16

2. The Mike Bracko method - start with legs wider, arms side to side - see link here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrAAoE039Vk.

Skaters looking to improve need to know what they should be focussing on.

Both the Laura Stamm and the Mike Bracko website have testimonials, but interestingly, none from higher level hockey players/coaches that I could see. I personally feel that the Laura Stamm method is the right one. It just doesn't make sense to me that you can increase speed with a shorter stride. Then again, Mike Bracko's credentials are impressive.

Surely, there is a correct answer to this important debate?
I don't know about the website, but on the back cover of my paperback version of Laura Stamm's Power Skating there are testimonials by Bob Nystrom, Luc Robitaille, Kevin Dineen, and Greg Adams.

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01-13-2012, 07:09 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by HockeyGuy1975 View Post
What you are advocating (besides where to buy Bracko's DVD) is the complete opposite of what speed skaters do. And speed skating is now a scientific sport for the most part.

While not exactly the same thing, watch a 100 meter dash and you'll see runners move their arms straight forward. It is physics. Science.
a 100 meter dash is the complete opposite of a skating technique. your legs and arms should coordinate when moving, a running motion there is no push to the side at all, it is striaght forward the power is generated by the push of your body forward. Skating the power is generated by pushing directly to the side, the only time you would see someone push directly back would be on figure skates, maybe.

I cant open youtube right now but speed skaters are slightly different as their skates are different but the concept is the same. from memory i dont picture a speed skater "pulling a rope" with their arms, i may be wrong so i will find video evidence either way later tonight.

*also i only posted Brackos video website as i cannot access youtube, i do know he did have videos up there before and if i could access it from work i would have posted those instead.

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01-13-2012, 07:32 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by SuperSwede21 View Post
It really comes down to what you find comfortable and convienient. This is my first year playing player, and everyone says I skate like a mixture of Mason Raymond and Taylor Hall, I'm low to the ice, very hunched over and have a lot of arm motion. I just find that comfortable.
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Originally Posted by newfr4u View Post
no it does not. comfort is secondary to performance.
If you're not comfortable doing it, chances are you aren't going to do it well.

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01-13-2012, 10:24 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by SuperSwede21 View Post
It really comes down to what you find comfortable and convienient. This is my first year playing player, and everyone says I skate like a mixture of Mason Raymond and Taylor Hall, I'm low to the ice, very hunched over and have a lot of arm motion. I just find that comfortable.
Not really. Skating, like any physical motion, is about physics. It's not an opinion. There is a "best" way to do it. Strong legs and core, well conditioned aerobic system, flexible, and a good technique. The fact that a certain NHLer does it a different way is kind of a moot point. Players make the nhl for all sorts of reasons. Smart, tough, great shot, strong on puck, etc. It doesn't mean they are skating optimally. I'm quite sure there are people on this board that skate better than some of the worse NHL skaters. Rick Toccett and Brad Marsh are Flyers that come to mind.

What "feels comfortable" is irrelevant for optimum performance. It feels more comfortable for me to sleep until 7am vs. training legs from 5:30-7am. Which one makes me a better player?

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01-13-2012, 10:33 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by HockeyGuy1975 View Post
What you are advocating (besides where to buy Bracko's DVD) is the complete opposite of what speed skaters do. And speed skating is now a scientific sport for the most part.

While not exactly the same thing, watch a 100 meter dash and you'll see runners move their arms straight forward. It is physics. Science.
Good points and I completely agree. The goal in skating is to move forward. Your stride moves to the side simply out of necessity to utilize the edge of your skate blade.

Skating is physics and nothing more. The fastest skaters will be the ones that execute as close as possible to the optimum technique. Relative to their conditioning of course. Without the legs you'll be a slow player with great technique.

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01-13-2012, 10:37 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by SuperSwede21 View Post
If you're not comfortable doing it, chances are you aren't going to do it well.
I don't get your logic. Deep knee bends, getting low etc. aren't comfortable for anyone. They are the proper way to skate.

Athletic performance is based on physics, not comfort.

Is it more comfortable for me to coast for a 45 sec. shift or sprint to where my legs are burning by the 45 sec. mark? Coast=comfort. Sprint=proper way to play the game.

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01-13-2012, 10:41 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by CornKicker View Post
i did misread what you wrote, my bad

in teh BRacko seminars i went to he was showing the science behind the stride. the way he was showing it is that you do not need to bring your skate under you. there is an invisble line right down teh middle of your body, if your skate crosses this line (ie your right skate comes under your body onto the left side of the invisible line) you lose power. you lose power because you cannot push yet, you have to wait for your leg to be at a proper angle for you to effectlively push again. I dont remember the exact numbers but each stride was wasting .06 seconds or something, which seems miniscule but over 15-20 strides were talking a second of difference. the first drill we did on ice after the seminar was he lined 20 cones and we had to skate over them with a leg on each side and you couldnt touch the pilons. basically the pilons were a separater and you couldnt bring your legs together. i encourage any of you to just try it once. i honestly felt more power from my stride, i played hockey for 20+ years and i could feel the difference. when i started playing with my regular team again they noticed a difference.

obviously everyone is different but i do encourage everyone to try this basis for skating.

during the presentation he was showing before and after videos of women from teh canadian national team. posting their speed etc before and after changing their skating styles, you dont need a testomonial for that, you can see it on teh videos. he also pulled video from teh fastest skater comp for the last 4 years. every single player skated the exact same way. it was really eye opening to see.
This is exactly what I notice. When I bring my leg in way under me, I lose not only power, but more importantly balance as well. When I stay wide, everything works better. Problem I'm having is simply trying to break the muscle memory and change the way I skate. I much prefer the wide style, but it's gonna take me a while to make it intuitive and not have to think about it while I'm playing.

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01-14-2012, 12:56 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by CornKicker View Post
a 100 meter dash is the complete opposite of a skating technique. your legs and arms should coordinate when moving, a running motion there is no push to the side at all, it is striaght forward the power is generated by the push of your body forward. Skating the power is generated by pushing directly to the side, the only time you would see someone push directly back would be on figure skates, maybe.

I cant open youtube right now but speed skaters are slightly different as their skates are different but the concept is the same. from memory i dont picture a speed skater "pulling a rope" with their arms, i may be wrong so i will find video evidence either way later tonight.

*also i only posted Brackos video website as i cannot access youtube, i do know he did have videos up there before and if i could access it from work i would have posted those instead.
I mentioned the 100 meter dash with respect to arm swing -- your points are irrelevant. And, yes, speed skaters skate exactly the opposite of what Bracko teaches and what you are advocating. Do check out Youtube on that. And also check out Bure or Fedorov videos.

Disagreement is good so I appreciate the comments, but I fundamentally disagree. Also, take a look at Bracko's Youtube videos and you'll see that they are a complete joke. He claims to time players on the two different techniques, yet when the sample skaters put little effort when trying the classic Stamm methods and maximum effort for his technique. It is laughable. As for the PhD -- whatever. Getting a PhD based on a dissertation on hockey forward skating doesn't mean anything other than Bracko was able to devise some statistical studies and advocate a position. Do you think the school that awarded him his PhD believes in the Bracko more than the Stamm method? How many doctors do you see on late night informercials trying to sell you stuff?

Also, for those that are testing out the wide, short strides -- try skating like that for a game and see how much more tired you will be. Long, efficient strides save energy and place your blade on the ice for a longer time, therefore you don't have to repeat as much, therefore you save energy.

We are talking about open ice skating and acceleration after your first few steps -- not skating with a guy bearing down on you. Everyone knows a wide stance gives you more balance when gliding, but this conversation is not about gliding.

Finally, if you don't have good balance while bringing your feet directly under you, it is because you're not a very good skater.


Last edited by HockeyGuy1975: 01-14-2012 at 01:02 AM. Reason: typos
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01-14-2012, 01:45 AM
  #37
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i encourage you to look at speed skaters.



notice how their acceleration technique is vastly different from top speed technique. during acceleration the strides are shorter but much more frequent, arms swinging side to side, adding to lateral leg pushes. (btw, before you say short track, swinging arms side to side is the quickest way to get dq'ed, so obviously they don't do it there).

during top speed, their stride is longer and more "efficient", but that matters on the type of event. in non-sprint events their arms are still on straightaways (because they are actually resting) and one arm swinging back and forth on turns/crossovers (which btw are not really lateral movements). in sprint events, they may swing one or two arms on straightaways, but if they are pushing into the ice, it's more side-to-side than front-to-back.

hockey skating is mostly acceleration skating, with lots of crossover turns, but of course there are stretches where top speed is needed.

comparing skating to running is silly. running is not a lateral movement.


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01-14-2012, 02:12 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Guffaw View Post
Good points and I completely agree. The goal in skating is to move forward. Your stride moves to the side simply out of necessity to utilize the edge of your skate blade.

Skating is physics and nothing more. The fastest skaters will be the ones that execute as close as possible to the optimum technique. Relative to their conditioning of course. Without the legs you'll be a slow player with great technique.
This is a most logical argument. I would make a small adjustment which is that there is not necessarily one optimum technique, in the sense that there is no one standard body configuration. Leg length, shape of joint, fit of joints, hip width, torso length, ankle shape, all those things would likely result in significant different angles of stress and optimal movement. While there might be certain ideal skating theories, in practice there may be significant adjustment. Could the tall slenderly built Gretzky/Mason Raymond body account for their hunched-over strides?

I also wonder if there is an optimum technique for forward momentum, and a different configuration for ideal turning, ideal shooting, etc -- so that there is not one posture but a continuous, variable, yet logical and predicable integrated suite of postures.

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01-14-2012, 04:43 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Yammer View Post
This is a most logical argument. I would make a small adjustment which is that there is not necessarily one optimum technique, in the sense that there is no one standard body configuration. Leg length, shape of joint, fit of joints, hip width, torso length, ankle shape, all those things would likely result in significant different angles of stress and optimal movement. While there might be certain ideal skating theories, in practice there may be significant adjustment. Could the tall slenderly built Gretzky/Mason Raymond body account for their hunched-over strides?

I also wonder if there is an optimum technique for forward momentum, and a different configuration for ideal turning, ideal shooting, etc -- so that there is not one posture but a continuous, variable, yet logical and predicable integrated suite of postures.
no, there are a few variables in human bone and muscle structure, but not enough to affect the pattern of optimal movement. evolution pretty much took care of that for us. the maximal performance will vary for individuals, but the way to achieve maximal perfomance will not vary significantly at all.

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01-14-2012, 05:02 AM
  #40
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To be honest, to me the idea of one "Optimal style" is ridiculous.
No two players bodies are identical if you take me and two other players on my team

Me- 6ft- 168lbs
Oliver- 6ft 5"- 185lbs
Matt- 5ft 9"- 190lbs

In terms of body size and construction we are vastly different, as it happens I am the fastest of the three (Due to having proper instruction) but honestly not by much.
Due to Oliver's height his stride length is longer but he also takes longer to bring his foot back into position to start his next stride, this leads to him having a better top speed than acceleration.
Matt on the other hand finds it easier to get the power down quickly so accelerates better than any of us but then tops out much sooner.
I'm not saying that any of us a pro level skaters (Far from it) but if you were to convert the styles I am much more of a Laura Stamm style and Matt is more of the Bracko style.
If there is a "Perfect Method" then the human body won't be able to realise it due to the inherent differences between everyone.
At the end of the day skating is no different to anything else, different methods will work better for different people, I could spend my whole life attempting to Mirror Pavel Bure's skating style and not get close to his sort of speed and control because that style won't work for me.

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01-14-2012, 10:12 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Maccas View Post
To be honest, to me the idea of one "Optimal style" is ridiculous.
No two players bodies are identical if you take me and two other players on my team

Me- 6ft- 168lbs
Oliver- 6ft 5"- 185lbs
Matt- 5ft 9"- 190lbs
Height and weight are usually due to bone size/length and amount of muscle and body fat. That doesn't change the physics of human motion so much since the muscle attachment and insertion points are going to be very similar.

Things like getting low and in a min. of a 90 degree knee bend to flex(load) the glutes and quads are universal IMO. It's like cocking a gun or pulling back the string on a bow. Full extension at the hip, knee, and ankle during your stride etc.

You can be a good skater at certain levels with flawed or "comfortable" technique. It doesn't mean you wouldn't be better with proper technique.

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01-14-2012, 10:46 AM
  #42
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I played a game yesterday and tried the "Wide" style...

first off wide doesn't mean just step wide.. if you want proper contact on your skates, you need to really want to squat with deep knee bend...

if you don't have a deep knee bend and have your ass somewhat sticking out in a squating position, you'll be using the inside edge only when you're not striding and its doubtful you'll have strong enough ankles to keep them upright, so they'll look like they are bending inside.

I used the same extention technique as I typically do (full leg extention with heel push), but just pulled my recovered leg to the position it would be in a "wide" track

my impressions are...
while being wide, I found more balance to focus my toe pick starts, seeming like I was more explosive, yet generating less upper body movement. Good ole one, two, three toe pick and into my stride right away

for accelleration and top end? I'm not sure, but I felt fast last night... but I have those nights. I didn't feel any slower than I do with the heel click technique however, so that's also a plus.

Being a bit wider already, I found you don't have to step out to take a shot, or a hard pass as you're already pretty balanced...

I did however find it more awkward to transition, as your transition to a backwards start requires you to pull quite a bit more, and I found myself pretty slow being wide... that being said, it could just take time and still felt pretty intuitive...

I noticed during the "crosby" first skate back since Dec 7th interview --- that he skates/glides pretty wide as well

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01-15-2012, 12:06 PM
  #43
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went to watch the flames/kings yesterday... boy do are they kings every an underachieving team, with all that talent in their roster.

However, did watch dem boys skate... Cammy skates like the Bracko syle... he's wide, real wide... oh and short and has a huge head as well lol

but of all the guys I was impressed with, its still Bouwmeester...
I mean, Gio, Doughty, Johnson, Greene are all awsome skating d'men, but Bouwmeester is just so fast and is also a somewhat wide track skater, but he's so tall that I think that's just how he developed.

He seriously looks like he floats out there... his transitions are the most effortless, and his accelleration both ways is ridiculious.
I know there are faster skaters, but I'm not sure who is a better overall skater in the league... those backward x-over strides are long and he seems to be able to accellerate insanely fast though each pull

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01-15-2012, 09:17 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by newfr4u View Post
i encourage you to look at speed skaters.



notice how their acceleration technique is vastly different from top speed technique. during acceleration the strides are shorter but much more frequent, arms swinging side to side, adding to lateral leg pushes. (btw, before you say short track, swinging arms side to side is the quickest way to get dq'ed, so obviously they don't do it there).

during top speed, their stride is longer and more "efficient", but that matters on the type of event. in non-sprint events their arms are still on straightaways (because they are actually resting) and one arm swinging back and forth on turns/crossovers (which btw are not really lateral movements). in sprint events, they may swing one or two arms on straightaways, but if they are pushing into the ice, it's more side-to-side than front-to-back.

hockey skating is mostly acceleration skating, with lots of crossover turns, but of course there are stretches where top speed is needed.

comparing skating to running is silly. running is not a lateral movement.
There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding or misreading in this discussion. The Stamm style advocates quick, short steps for acceleration and than long strides, while bringing your feet under your body. The Bracko is quick, short steps for acceleration and then wide "railroad" track skating. At least, this is my understanding. Bouwmeester, for example, is the epitome of the Stamm style.

Nobody is saying long strides are best for the first few steps. Although really great players are at almost top speed after a few steps. Also, nobody is saying running is like skating so I don't understand the use of the strawman.

In terms of the arm movements, Bracko advocates swinging your arms from left to right (sideways) the whole time. Stamm advocates swinging from front to back, but not having your hands cross the middle of your body. Neither advocate completely straight arm movements from front to back (see video below). Specifically, if you were to draw a line down the center of your body, your hand during the swing would not cross this line. This is exactly how speed skaters skate in the video above, so the speed skating video supports the Stamm style of skating.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFH8VCXKUyQ

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01-15-2012, 10:57 PM
  #45
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HockeyGuy, crossing the middle of your body with the arms does not significantly happen with either style. your hand might cross it simply because your elbow is bent, but the arm itself does not. swinging side to side vs front to back is defined whether the main part of the movement is arm adduction/abduction or scapular retraction/protraction. in the speed skating video above, the side-to-side movement is hand moving away from the body and back (like bracko advocates, read his thesis if you wish), while front to back is hand moving from your hand to your butt and sometimes way behind your back (you can see it quite clearly on speedskater's crossovers and in the stamm video you linked).

here is a quote when you brought the running arm motion into the discussion. it's not a strawman to say that point is irrelevant.

Quote:
While not exactly the same thing, watch a 100 meter dash and you'll see runners move their arms straight forward. It is physics. Science.
the movements of your legs must be coordinated with the movement of your arms for mechanical efficiency. just because you are moving forward in both the 100m dash and on skates, doesn't mean the same arm movement would be efficient. running is not a lateral push, while skating is. therefore, you can't run with a scapular swing, but you can skate with it.

lastly, acceleration is much more important in hockey than top speed. it is not just linear acceleration, but lateral acceleration is what allows you to make quicker and tighter turns. once again physics. the long stride at top speed is less useful if you can't make a 180 turn inside a faceoff circle.


Last edited by newfr4u: 01-15-2012 at 11:04 PM.
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01-16-2012, 12:28 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Hawkey36 View Post
The rule of thumb is that skates should fit snugly but not cause discomfort or pain. Any skate shop will tell you that.
When you first buy them, or after several months of wearing them?

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01-16-2012, 12:45 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by newfr4u View Post
HockeyGuy, crossing the middle of your body with the arms does not significantly happen with either style. your hand might cross it simply because your elbow is bent, but the arm itself does not. swinging side to side vs front to back is defined whether the main part of the movement is arm adduction/abduction or scapular retraction/protraction. in the speed skating video above, the side-to-side movement is hand moving away from the body and back (like bracko advocates, read his thesis if you wish), while front to back is hand moving from your hand to your butt and sometimes way behind your back (you can see it quite clearly on speedskater's crossovers and in the stamm video you linked).

here is a quote when you brought the running arm motion into the discussion. it's not a strawman to say that point is irrelevant.



the movements of your legs must be coordinated with the movement of your arms for mechanical efficiency. just because you are moving forward in both the 100m dash and on skates, doesn't mean the same arm movement would be efficient. running is not a lateral push, while skating is. therefore, you can't run with a scapular swing, but you can skate with it.

lastly, acceleration is much more important in hockey than top speed. it is not just linear acceleration, but lateral acceleration is what allows you to make quicker and tighter turns. once again physics. the long stride at top speed is less useful if you can't make a 180 turn inside a faceoff circle.
Read the opening clause of my statement. Nobody is debating that skating is different because of lateral movements of legs. Also, nobody is debating that arm and leg movements need to be coordinated. Your speed skating video supports the notion that forward/back arm movements with long strides are optimal.

Regarding acceleration, Bure is probably known for having the greatest acceleration of any player. What did he do? He brought his feet completely under him in order to start each stride on an outside edge.

As for Bracko's style, here is a video link. I'm really impressed by the "objective evidence" of these studies performed by the "doctor." I'm not saying he doesn't have more rigorous studies, but these videos explain in summary his theories. I also like how he classifies the arm swing he performs as the "normal" way of skating.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrAAoE039Vk


Last edited by HockeyGuy1975: 01-16-2012 at 01:19 AM.
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01-16-2012, 01:00 AM
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newfr4u
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JFC! the physics are not the same for the reason i stated. my contention is you should stop looking at running altogether. if you didn't, then your original statement on it is completely out of place.

Bracko is not a "doctor". He is a D.Ed. not sure why you are attacking his credentials. his thesis was subject to peer review. if you want to find flaws in it, you should probably first familiarize yourself with it. Or accept peer review (as poor as it is on the internets) to your own posts.

in his video he explains forward-backward vs side-to-side in layman's terms. perhaps you are confused how these motions are arm and scapular motions respectively.


Last edited by newfr4u: 01-16-2012 at 01:27 AM.
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01-16-2012, 06:56 AM
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Borrows the thread if it's OK.

I have to short strides and skates with my legs to straightened. I need to take longer strides and bend my knees more. At the moment I can't skate the way I would like to, due to my miserable groin- and hip mobility. The backs of my thighs need to increase mobility also. I'm stiff as a stick!

Can anyone hand me som tips for skating drills or off ice drills to increase my mobility? I hate to stretch my muscles but Ive come to the point where I really have to.

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01-16-2012, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bp spec View Post
Borrows the thread if it's OK.

I have to short strides and skates with my legs to straightened. I need to take longer strides and bend my knees more. At the moment I can't skate the way I would like to, due to my miserable groin- and hip mobility. The backs of my thighs need to increase mobility also. I'm stiff as a stick!

Can anyone hand me som tips for skating drills or off ice drills to increase my mobility? I hate to stretch my muscles but Ive come to the point where I really have to.
enjoy.
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/we...-a-631289.html

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