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The Montreal effect.

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01-13-2012, 11:05 PM
  #1
Avim86
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The Montreal effect.

Hello all ,


I keep hearing people refer to players coming to Montreal and being worse , for example x player will come to Montreal via trade or Free agency and is expected to under perform due to being in Montreal now. I always wondered if this theory had any statistical merit or if Montreal is just a place where people like to add fuel to the fire to push their agendas. Is there really a correlation between players coming here and performance diminishing in contrast with previous accomplishments with other teams?
I honestly didn't expect Gionta to regain his peek 40+goal season or Gomez to become some kind of superstar. I've noticed several examples of players coming here and flourishing , since it's unfair to compare different teams from different era's let's just stick to post lockout. Alex Kovalev 2nd best season in his career with Montreal , Ryder never returned to his 30 goal form with other teams. Chris Higgins never really reached his "potential" outside of Montreal even with a western juggernaut such as Vancouver. Max Lapierre also a good example of a decent energy guy who hasn't accomplished much outside of Montreal. Look how well Glen Metropolite did with us in contrast with his career guy was a machine. Huet was never the same once he left Montreal , even a guy like Richard Zednik had his best seasons in Montreal.Robert Lang also another example of a player in the twilight of his career excelling in Montreal.

There are many other examples as well as the contrary notion of players blossoming elsewhere (Ribeiro , S.Kostitsyn..) but we've all heard of change of scenery helping players on all teams when the going get's tough. I just don't find that the logic that players will somehow be worse (statistically) when arriving in Montreal is warranted. While we must take all things into consideration (team depth ,ice time , chemistry , career history (rookie/prime/veteran) or even injuries.

I just don't see it and it has come up especially lately with the Cammy trade , all of a sudden Cammalleri will go back to being a 35-40g scorer and Bourque won't exceed 20 goals per season...I personally am a fan of the trade and I can see Bourque tucking in those dirty goals from nice set-ups by are skilled smaller players.

Discuss? Please don't turn this into a Cammy-Bourque thread thanks.

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01-13-2012, 11:07 PM
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sammy d
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Theory has no merit, happens to every team, a lot of people on here will disagree because of the herd mentality, because everyone says its so its must be true.

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01-13-2012, 11:14 PM
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There is no Montreal effect just like there is no Detroit Red Wings effect.

It is simply having an effective GM who understands what it takes to win hockey games and then having an effective coach who knows how to get the most out of his players by having them play smart hockey.

The only Montreal effect is that we have been stuck with inept coaches like Carbo and Martin for so long that we have forgotten what great hockey looks like in Montreal.

Top that off with sub-par General Managers and we have what we have today.

Blaming any of the problems here in Montreal on the media or the "pressure" is simply passing the buck and apologizing for poor leadership. Effective leadership would simply tell the media to piss off and then create a winning team that would have the media with nothing to whine about.

We are mired in expecting and accepting mediocrity from the management of this team. Nothing more and nothing less.

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01-13-2012, 11:19 PM
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There's a lot more pressure here no doubt, this happens to star players on the Yankees & Red Sox also in the MLB, you almost have to have a fighter pilot mentality & not read the papers. Although Montreal is a 1 horse town, so makes it worst!

Montreal playing defensive hockey though causes some issues though by style, of course it's really-really stupid! To bring in offensive players & a Defensive coach, MGMT set up a situation for failure.

People wonder why there isn't more Franco-Q players we'll it's even way more pressure, Lapierre & Tender couldn't handle it either.

It would almost help to have a 2nd team, hope-fully bringing the Nords back(maybe) will give half this Province's fan base something else. This is Montreal's team.

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01-13-2012, 11:20 PM
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some players just fit in certain situations

Vrbata effect

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01-13-2012, 11:27 PM
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SouthernHab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs23 View Post
There's a lot more pressure here no doubt, this happens to star players on the Yankees & Red Sox also in the MLB, you almost have to have a fighter pilot mentality & not read the papers. Although Montreal is a 1 horse town, so makes it worst!

Montreal playing defensive hockey though causes some issues though by style, of course it's really-really stupid! To bring in offensive players & a Defensive coach, MGMT set up a situation for failure.

People wonder why there isn't more Franco-Q players we'll it's even way more pressure, Lapierre & Tender couldn't handle it either.

It would almost help to have a 2nd team, hope-fully bringing the Nords back(maybe) will give half this Province's fan base something else. This is Montreal's team.
It isnt pressure. If a player is affected by pressure from the media or the fans, then they are not mentally tough to begin with. That is fluff and a built in excuse for the failure that we are seeing today.

Where was this crushing pressure when Montreal was successful?

And to the reason why Lapierre and Latendresse failed here, all one has to do is look at their coaches. Lats was played on the 3rd and 4th lines by Carbo and got junk minutes. Once he left here and was given an opportunity to succeed and given confidence by his coach, he excelled as a top line forward. Lapierre was mishandled by Martin. He was very good as a defensive forward but was getting less time on the PK.

That is coaching, not location.

And why would a top notch star forward want to come to Montreal to play. For years and years, all they have seen is top 6 players hounded and harassed with no one on the team coming to step in for them. In Montreal, you are on your own. Ask Subban about that.

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01-13-2012, 11:34 PM
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The closest thing to a "Montreal effect" is what Philadelphia does to goalies.

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01-13-2012, 11:35 PM
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@SH Get back to me when you live in Montreal since the information age kicked in. Pick up your Gazette on the front porch, it's the Habs game all over, murders on page 3.

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01-13-2012, 11:45 PM
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We don't have the elite players to help them produce. We play defensive systems because of this. We don't attract top UFAs (and UFAs aren't usually elite players to begin with anyway.) We build with the retreads from other clubs.

That pretty much sums it up sadly.

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01-13-2012, 11:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
It isnt pressure. If a player is affected by pressure from the media or the fans, then they are not mentally tough to begin with. That is fluff and a built in excuse for the failure that we are seeing today.

Where was this crushing pressure when Montreal was successful?

And to the reason why Lapierre and Latendresse failed here, all one has to do is look at their coaches. Lats was played on the 3rd and 4th lines by Carbo and got junk minutes. Once he left here and was given an opportunity to succeed and given confidence by his coach, he excelled as a top line forward. Lapierre was mishandled by Martin. He was very good as a defensive forward but was getting less time on the PK.

That is coaching, not location.

And why would a top notch star forward want to come to Montreal to play. For years and years, all they have seen is top 6 players hounded and harassed with no one on the team coming to step in for them. In Montreal, you are on your own. Ask Subban about that.
I think the problem has been management accommodating the media , it seems like Montreal is the only city where finishing in the bottom is unacceptable in order to rebuild and get real talent via draft (Kane , Eberle , RNH , Stamkos...) , while I do understand that predicting top end talent is never easy especially when you don't have a lottery pick but I honestly think you need a core of elite talent to build around in order to achieve desired results (remaining competitive during the season + accomplishing something in playoffs). There are no guarantees in life however it's the most proven way to build a winner in today's NHL.

Boston last year : Chara/Thomas = Elite talent (Seguin also in the future) , Krejci/Bergeron = Strong talent.
Chicago : Toews/Kane/Hossa/Keith = Elite talent , Sharp/Versteeg = Strong talent.
Pittsburgh : Crosby/Malkin = Elite talent , Fleury/Letang/Staal = Strong talent.
Detroit : Zetterberg/Datsyuk/Lidstrom = Elite talent , Franzen/Hudler = Strong talent.
Anaheim : Perry/Getzlaf/Niedermayer = Elite talent , Giguere = Strong talent (was amazing during that run.)
Carolina : Staal/Brind'amour/Ward = Elite talent , J.Williams/Stillman = Strong talent.


Notice the pattern , every team has 2-3 forwards with strong/elite offensive skill , as well as 2-3 strong role players as well as a hot goalie.

If Markov comes back and produces all we need is 1-2 elite forwards (easier said then done) and we can deem are team a success , until then we are a bubble team at best.

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01-13-2012, 11:57 PM
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SouthernHab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs23 View Post
@SH Get back to me when you live in Montreal since the information age kicked in. Pick up your Gazette on the front porch, it's the Habs game all over, murders on page 3.

I know what you are talking about. The same can be said for football in Green Bay, baseball in St. Louis and basketball in Orlando.

It is not exclusive to Montreal by any means.

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01-14-2012, 04:46 AM
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nothing to the theory. look at cole? cammy had 2 good years here. for some reason some people will say everything and anything to take a cheap shot at us while we are down. i imagine it has something to do with all our cups.

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01-14-2012, 06:19 AM
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When Montreal was proud to be the best, even when it always wasn't...


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01-14-2012, 07:50 AM
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Hello all ,
Ryder never returned to his 30 goal form with other teams.
Ryder as of now has :

42 GP : 17 goals - 15 assists.

He is having one of his best season of his career at the moment.

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01-14-2012, 08:09 AM
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The issue in Montreal is that they won't do a proper rebuild. With limited talent, this team has had success only by playing a system where everyone pulls in the same direction 100%. And the only system that works with limited talent, is defense.

Over the long run, that stiffles talent, and erodes the offensive minded players. Jacques Martin wasn't flashy, but he sure got this bunch to accomplish great things while he was here.

This also answers why goalies all look like superstars in Montreal and end up being just OK for other teams. JM system, baby!

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01-14-2012, 08:12 AM
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Aurel Joliat
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Originally Posted by ReneBourque27 View Post
Ryder as of now has :

42 GP : 17 goals - 15 assists.

He is having one of his best season of his career at the moment.
Excatly. And even if he did not score 30 goals with the Bruins, he was a clutch player during playoffs in 2009 and 2011

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01-14-2012, 08:15 AM
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Darch
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Originally Posted by FiveForDrawingBlood View Post
nothing to the theory. look at cole? cammy had 2 good years here. for some reason some people will say everything and anything to take a cheap shot at us while we are down. i imagine it has something to do with all our cups.
To be honest, it has way more to do with the arrogance and entitlement of the fans who try to forget this team has done nothing and been sub-par for nearly 20 years now. In todays' world, it's all about "What have you done for me lately"! ;-)

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01-14-2012, 08:36 AM
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I thought Cole was having one of his best year this year?

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01-14-2012, 01:35 PM
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A lot of this has to do because we usually trade players when their values are at their lowest.

Its sad but the team has always wanted to ''win now'' and the fans have always been impatient so unproductive players are often dealt with swiftly.

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01-14-2012, 05:12 PM
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King Kovalev
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Czerkawski from 30G scorer to AHL player
Cammalleri from 40G scorer to 20G scorer
Gomez from 15G scorer to 0G scorer
Mike Johnson from very good 3rd liner to TV analyst lol

Is it a "Montreal effect" or just bad moves I don't know but..

The only player in recent memory who was good was Kovalev with a .8+ PPG

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01-14-2012, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
Its sad but the team has always wanted to ''win now'' and the fans have always been impatient so unproductive players are often dealt with swiftly.
JOURNALISTS are impatient, they create the madness in the news/media and the stupid fans fall into that trap and begin to boo players that are being put down by them.

the reason why PATRICE BRISEBOIS was booed was because of the journalist who were putting him down constantly on 110 % !

NOBODY can state the contrary, I vividly remember telling to myself that the Brisebois mistakeS bashing on 110 % and in the papers will get him booed like crazy and IT HAPPENED!

GO FIGURE !

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01-14-2012, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by King Kovalev View Post
Czerkawski from 30G scorer to AHL player
Cammalleri from 40G scorer to 20G scorer
Gomez from 15G scorer to 0G scorer
Mike Johnson from very good 3rd liner to TV analyst lol

Is it a "Montreal effect" or just bad moves I don't know but..

The only player in recent memory who was good was Kovalev with a .8+ PPG
Well there is also Bonk, Samsonov, Spacek who were kind of busts has Habs players.

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01-15-2012, 01:52 AM
  #23
Sined
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King Kovalev View Post
Czerkawski from 30G scorer to AHL player
Cammalleri from 40G scorer to 20G scorer
Gomez from 15G scorer to 0G scorer
Mike Johnson from very good 3rd liner to TV analyst lol

Is it a "Montreal effect" or just bad moves I don't know but..

The only player in recent memory who was good was Kovalev with a .8+ PPG
You could put Kovalev on your little list too. KHL?

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01-15-2012, 01:54 AM
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Avim86
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You could put Kovalev on your little list too. KHL?
That's not the point it's not what they become , it's what they are during their time with Montreal vs other teams , as mentioned above Kovalev had his 2nd best season in Montreal.

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01-15-2012, 01:59 AM
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Originally Posted by FiveForDrawingBlood View Post
nothing to the theory. look at cole? cammy had 2 good years here. for some reason some people will say everything and anything to take a cheap shot at us while we are down. i imagine it has something to do with all our cups.
agree. I think lately we've been producing mini superstars, the first of them being L'Artiste himself.

They tend to fade (although I think Cole is money), but they have given us some great moments and sold lots of jerseys.

I think if there was any Montreal effect it's that we'll get scored on by an ex-player or a Francophone from the other team. That seems to always happen.

this may be going back a bit, but Turgeon was pretty good with us, wasn't he?

Goal production (re: Cammy) doesn't mean much. He became a household name in Montreal, not Calgary or LA.

LOL @ Mike Johnson.

Moore and Halpern were great the years they were here. Metropolit FTW!

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