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With no Gretzky and Lemieux: Who dominates The Art Ross from 1981-1997

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Old
01-13-2012, 08:10 PM
  #26
Psycho Papa Joe
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Yeah they ate that up for sure.. that rule was put in place to try and slow them down.
So much for the theory that their was a league wide conspiracy to protect and inflate Gretzky's numbers.

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Old
01-13-2012, 08:13 PM
  #27
BraveCanadian
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Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
So much for the theory that their was a league wide conspiracy to protect and inflate Gretzky's numbers.
Not only that but no one was allowed to hit him either!

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Old
01-14-2012, 02:59 PM
  #28
blogofmike
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
That's the ting though, even with Gretzky, the Oilers weren't as dominant on the PP as you would think.
Not compared to Lemieux and the Pens, that's for sure. Those guys destroyed teams on the PP.
I wholeheartedly disagree.

Unless you think the Gretzky Oilers have to finish #1 every year, they did as well as expected. With Gretzky the Oilers were at or near the top of the League in PP% even with so few opportunities.

The Pens always had an advantage in PPO, and that is the sole reason for their high PPG total in every year except 95-96 when they were indeed destroying teams. The Pens received an average number of PPO or an obsecenly high number. The Oilers received an average number of PPO, or as they did at their peak an obscenely low number of PPO (130 fewer than the Pens in 1986.)

For sustained success, the Pens never put together a 4-year stretch like the Oilers did between 82-83 and 85-86 where they were as good as the Habs dynasty. (The Habs did have a fairly imbalanced league to play in, as other top teams were hitting 30% too.) The only time they come close is 95-96 and 96-97, finishing at #1 and #2, but that's still not as good as two #1s and two #2s.

Lemieux was a great PP player, but his large PP totals are more the result of an unusually high amount of PPO than it is a high PP% (not that it was BAD or anything). Lemieux teams couldn't consistently outperform Gretzky teams in PP%, even in the 90s when Lemieux had the far stronger supporting cast.

Oilers Table
Year Oilers PP% Rank Pens PP% Rank NHL avg Oilers PPO Pens PPO Avg PPO Oiler Rk Pens Rk Gretzky GP Mario GP
79-80 21.63 10 19.85 14 21.86 282 262 280 10 18 79 0
80-81 22.19 12 23.00 11 22.53 347 400 340 8 2 80 0
81-82 25.22 5 24.50 8 22.85 341 404 320 6 2 80 0
82-83 29.25 1 22.63 9 22.92 294 358 310 15 2 80 0
83-84 25.47 2 20.59 16 21.91 318 340 336 15 10 74 0
84-85 25.26 2 17.08 21 22.20 293 363 321 19 2 80 73
85-86 26.44 1 21.88 12 22.08 295 425 370 21 1 80 79
86-87 22.01 7 19.58 14 20.98 318 378 344 19 3 79 63
87-88 21.89 7 22.00 6 20.29 437 500 402 16 1 64 77
88-89 19.81 16 24.24 3 20.99 419 491 403 7 1 0 76
89-90 20.64 12 21.34 10 20.77 407 403 367 3 4 0 59

Kings Table
Year Kings PP% Rank Pens PP% Rank NHL avg Kings PPO Pens PPO Avg PPO Kings Rk Pens Rk Gretzky GP Mario GP
87-88 21.73 8 22.00 6 20.29 474 500 402 5 1 0 77
88-89 20.76 11 24.24 3 20.99 395 491 403 11 1 78 76
89-90 22.16 8 21.34 10 20.77 343 403 367 17 4 73 59
90-91 20.46 6 22.94 3 19.44 391 388 366 5 7 78 26
91-92 19.22 10 21.75 4 19.24 411 423 402 11 6 74 64
92-93 20.12 11 23.86 2 19.57 507 440 443 2 14 45 60
93-94 20.72 7 18.81 14 18.64 444 404 407 2 16 81 22
94-95 17.50 13 19.00 10 17.73 200 221 209 19 7 48 0
95-96 17.96 14 25.95 1 17.93 401 420 413 18 11 62 70
96-97 13.61 25 21.83 2 16.27 338 339 336 12 11 0 76

Rangers Table
Year NYR PP% Rank Pens PP% Rank NHL avg NYR PPO Pens PPO Avg PPO NYR Rk Pens Rk Gretzky GP Mario GP
96-97 21.95 1 21.83 2 16.27 287 339 336 26 11 82 76
97-98 17.66 5 16.46 11 15.08 351 407 380 24 4 82 0
98-99 20.40 2 17.91 7 15.81 348 363 359 17 14 70 0
99-00 16.92 10 15.61 20 16.15 325 346 331 18 7 0 0
00-01 17.91 11 20.27 5 16.64 363 375 376 21 15 0 43
01-02 14.72 21 14.03 25 15.77 326 335 338 22 19 0 24
02-03 x x 18.33 7 16.43 x 360 363 x 16 0 67
03-04 x x 18.06 7 16.46 x 360 348 x 10 0 10
05-06 x x 18.99 6 17.68 x 495 480 x 11 0 26
06-07 x x 20.30 5 17.58 x 463 398 x 1 0 0

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Old
01-14-2012, 03:42 PM
  #29
Rhiessan71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blogofmike View Post
I wholeheartedly disagree.

Unless you think the Gretzky Oilers have to finish #1 every year, they did as well as expected. With Gretzky the Oilers were at or near the top of the League in PP% even with so few opportunities.

The Pens always had an advantage in PPO, and that is the sole reason for their high PPG total in every year except 95-96 when they were indeed destroying teams. The Pens received an average number of PPO or an obsecenly high number. The Oilers received an average number of PPO, or as they did at their peak an obscenely low number of PPO (130 fewer than the Pens in 1986.)

For sustained success, the Pens never put together a 4-year stretch like the Oilers did between 82-83 and 85-86 where they were as good as the Habs dynasty. (The Habs did have a fairly imbalanced league to play in, as other top teams were hitting 30% too.) The only time they come close is 95-96 and 96-97, finishing at #1 and #2, but that's still not as good as two #1s and two #2s.

Lemieux was a great PP player, but his large PP totals are more the result of an unusually high amount of PPO than it is a high PP% (not that it was BAD or anything). Lemieux teams couldn't consistently outperform Gretzky teams in PP%, even in the 90s when Lemieux had the far stronger supporting cast.

Oilers Table
Year Oilers PP% Rank Pens PP% Rank NHL avg Oilers PPO Pens PPO Avg PPO Oiler Rk Pens Rk Gretzky GP Mario GP
79-80 21.63 10 19.85 14 21.86 282 262 280 10 18 79 0
80-81 22.19 12 23.00 11 22.53 347 400 340 8 2 80 0
81-82 25.22 5 24.50 8 22.85 341 404 320 6 2 80 0
82-83 29.25 1 22.63 9 22.92 294 358 310 15 2 80 0
83-84 25.47 2 20.59 16 21.91 318 340 336 15 10 74 0
84-85 25.26 2 17.08 21 22.20 293 363 321 19 2 80 73
85-86 26.44 1 21.88 12 22.08 295 425 370 21 1 80 79
86-87 22.01 7 19.58 14 20.98 318 378 344 19 3 79 63
87-88 21.89 7 22.00 6 20.29 437 500 402 16 1 64 77
88-89 19.81 16 24.24 3 20.99 419 491 403 7 1 0 76
89-90 20.64 12 21.34 10 20.77 407 403 367 3 4 0 59

Kings Table
Year Kings PP% Rank Pens PP% Rank NHL avg Kings PPO Pens PPO Avg PPO Kings Rk Pens Rk Gretzky GP Mario GP
87-88 21.73 8 22.00 6 20.29 474 500 402 5 1 0 77
88-89 20.76 11 24.24 3 20.99 395 491 403 11 1 78 76
89-90 22.16 8 21.34 10 20.77 343 403 367 17 4 73 59
90-91 20.46 6 22.94 3 19.44 391 388 366 5 7 78 26
91-92 19.22 10 21.75 4 19.24 411 423 402 11 6 74 64
92-93 20.12 11 23.86 2 19.57 507 440 443 2 14 45 60
93-94 20.72 7 18.81 14 18.64 444 404 407 2 16 81 22
94-95 17.50 13 19.00 10 17.73 200 221 209 19 7 48 0
95-96 17.96 14 25.95 1 17.93 401 420 413 18 11 62 70
96-97 13.61 25 21.83 2 16.27 338 339 336 12 11 0 76

Rangers Table
Year NYR PP% Rank Pens PP% Rank NHL avg NYR PPO Pens PPO Avg PPO NYR Rk Pens Rk Gretzky GP Mario GP
96-97 21.95 1 21.83 2 16.27 287 339 336 26 11 82 76
97-98 17.66 5 16.46 11 15.08 351 407 380 24 4 82 0
98-99 20.40 2 17.91 7 15.81 348 363 359 17 14 70 0
99-00 16.92 10 15.61 20 16.15 325 346 331 18 7 0 0
00-01 17.91 11 20.27 5 16.64 363 375 376 21 15 0 43
01-02 14.72 21 14.03 25 15.77 326 335 338 22 19 0 24
02-03 x x 18.33 7 16.43 x 360 363 x 16 0 67
03-04 x x 18.06 7 16.46 x 360 348 x 10 0 10
05-06 x x 18.99 6 17.68 x 495 480 x 11 0 26
06-07 x x 20.30 5 17.58 x 463 398 x 1 0 0
Hmmm...good stuff man.
Still, I think when you have a team that is basically outscoring the league average by like 20-30%, you kind of expect their PP to look as ungodly.
It wasn't that the Oilers PP wasn't very good, it just wasn't as good as you would of thought.
That was the impression you had back then.

I would love to see the 4 on 4 numbers, if they're available, prior to the Edmonton rule going into effect to see if the situation was indeed as dire as the league deemed it at the time.

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Old
01-14-2012, 04:20 PM
  #30
Nalyd Psycho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Are you saying they would have been better at putting the biscuit in the net because they didn't have the greatest offensive force hockey has ever seen?
No. I'm saying the drop would not be relative to the drop of losing Gretzky.

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