Thanks. Definitely better but I don't feel I'm any closer to a conclusion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290
It didn't look like much but JVR was on the bench later holding his jaw on the same side that the contact was made (or at least in question) and it was a little red. Honestly it looks like it just grazed him but at high speeds and if he had his mouth piece out chewing on it like he often does (like p. kane) it could cause a concussion. now i don't want to say thats what it was cause obviously i don't/can't know for sure. i'm not a doctor but there is plenty of literature on concussions linked to contact with the jaw.
I'm not doubting that that's the case. I'm not trying to say he's faking or anything. It's just so minimal, I can't even see it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BringBackStevens
I really dont understand how people have formed this opinion. His elbow clearly caught him on the chin. And JVR reacted immediately, practically no delay at all
Oh please. If it was so obvious, JVR's head would have whipped towards the bench, and he would have spun like a top, as his momentum was going one way, and it was all of a sudden changed by a hit to the head. But that didn't happen. I don't see his head change direction at all. In fact he basically lifts his head straight up afterwards, and then falls to the ice.
Again, I'm not trying to say JVR is faking. I believe there is something wrong with him. Whether it is from this hit, or this hit combined with others, I just don't know. I'm just saying, this looked like almost nothing to me. In fact, as I said, I still can't even see the contact. If JVR didn't lift his head straight up (again, up, not towards the bench with the direction of Butler) afterwards, and then fall to the ice, I would have just assumed it was a clean miss.
This is what happens when you ARE clipped in the head at a high speed. It's discernible.
Edit: What's kind of pathetic is that JVR has played his best hockey since that game (including it, actually).
Adding another video:
Even Leino on Read, despite not being overly vicious in result, it was an obvious headshot that caused Read's momentum to change, and his body to spin.
I'm not saying he's not concussed, but "out indefinitely" after hearing you're the center of a major trade rumor?
van Riemsdyk (staring at the hammer in his hand): "Man, those talks with the Leafs about trading for me sound pretty serious. I'd better do something before I have to go to Toronto!"
If you pause at the point of impact on the higher quality Butler hit... it appears almost definite that he hit him on the jaw, at that speed it could quite easily cause a concussion, or at least make it easier for another hit to do that instead.
With this and a few other questionable hits, (Talbot...) it seems as though if there is not an immediate injury on the play, it is not deemed bad by the league! I mean, WTF, they seem to punish the result, not the action.
This and the 4 minute minor on high sticks causing bleeding make me laugh... so subjective it is stupid. I know hockey players who when a stick comes up, they just bite down into their lip to draw blood... easy 2 extra mins!
And for people saying it may not have caused a concussion... literally any head contact can cause a concussion.
I have been blessed to only have had one minor concussion in ten years of playing Water polo and Rugby, funnily enough it came of the most innocuous contact while playing water polo, was swimming after a guy, and his foot glanced off my jaw.
Immediately I had extreme trouble staying afloat, could not coordinate swimming to the side. However, 5 mins later I was good, came back in and scored 2 goals. Felt good the next day, even went training, but the day after felt like **** and ended up going to team physio, referred to a doctor and was out for 2 weeks with awful headaches and light sensitivity.
I have been hit far harder on the head many other times, once where my cheekbone was broken, another knocking 3 teeth out, one cutting my tongue open, and maybe 10-20 giving black eyes or other facial bruising. Yet that glancing blow to my jaw, with nothing but a slight red welt, was the one that caused a concussion.
If you pause at the point of impact on the higher quality Butler hit... it appears almost definite that he hit him on the jaw, at that speed it could quite easily cause a concussion, or at least make it easier for another hit to do that instead.
I still maintain if JVR was hit square on the jaw, at that speed, we would have seen his head snap in that direction. Rather than him simply lift his head. See the Read hit.
Quote:
With this and a few other questionable hits, (Talbot...) it seems as though if there is not an immediate injury on the play, it is not deemed bad by the league! I mean, WTF, they seem to punish the result, not the action.
I particularly hate how suspensions seem to have more to do with result rather than intention.
Quote:
This and the 4 minute minor on high sticks causing bleeding make me laugh... so subjective it is stupid. I know hockey players who when a stick comes up, they just bite down into their lip to draw blood... easy 2 extra mins!
If there is one thing in hockey that is NOT subjective it is that bleeding equals 4 minutes. It's not as if one ref will see blood and the other won't. It's there or it's not, and that results in the call.
And yes I realize that technically there is no rule regarding blood. It is actually injury that warrants the double minor. It has just become commonplace that blood = injury = double minor.
What you're arguing is the legitimacy of the blood as a result of the infraction.
Thanks. Definitely better but I don't feel I'm any closer to a conclusion.
I'm not doubting that that's the case. I'm not trying to say he's faking or anything. It's just so minimal, I can't even see it.
Oh please. If it was so obvious, JVR's head would have whipped towards the bench, and he would have spun like a top, as his momentum was going one way, and it was all of a sudden changed by a hit to the head. But that didn't happen. I don't see his head change direction at all. In fact he basically lifts his head straight up afterwards, and then falls to the ice.
Again, I'm not trying to say JVR is faking. I believe there is something wrong with him. Whether it is from this hit, or this hit combined with others, I just don't know. I'm just saying, this looked like almost nothing to me. In fact, as I said, I still can't even see the contact. If JVR didn't lift his head straight up (again, up, not towards the bench with the direction of Butler) afterwards, and then fall to the ice, I would have just assumed it was a clean miss.
This is what happens when you ARE clipped in the head at a high speed. It's discernible.
Edit: What's kind of pathetic is that JVR has played his best hockey since that game (including it, actually).
Adding another video:
Even Leino on Read, despite not being overly vicious in result, it was an obvious headshot that caused Read's momentum to change, and his body to spin.
It looks quite clear that he hits his chin area. It was a glancing blow, so no he wont necessarily "spin like a top". The clips you showed were all much more direct contact to the head, so they are completely irrelevant
Butler raised his elbow directly into his head area which is totally uncalled for and should have been a suspension
And I really dont see how or why you would react like JVR did if the guy just cruised by you are didnt touch you at all. Usually when a player is embellishing or faking the reaction comes a noticeable time after the supposed contact. I dont see that at all here
Edit: Its also funny that you are trying your best to make it look like JVR is faking considering you clearly hate the guy
If there is one thing in hockey that is NOT subjective it is that bleeding equals 4 minutes. It's not as if one ref will see blood and the other won't. It's there or it's not, and that results in the call.
And yes I realize that technically there is no rule regarding blood. It is actually injury that warrants the double minor. It has just become commonplace that blood = injury = double minor.
What you're arguing is the legitimacy of the blood as a result of the infraction.
Yes... I could have worded it better, meant that some awful high sticks can be only 2 mins, yet minor ones can be 4, just because there is blood, which is very easy to draw, and I am surprised more players don't! Exactly the same action can take place, yet the penalty will be different.
And I do not think he was hit square on the jaw, but that it was glancing... which can still cause a concussion.
It looks quite clear that he hits his chin area. It was a glancing blow, so no he wont necessarily "spin like a top". The clips you showed were all much more direct contact to the head, so they are completely irrelevant
Butler raised his elbow directly into his head area which is totally uncalled for and should have been a suspension
And I really dont see how or why you would react like JVR did if the guy just cruised by you are didnt touch you at all. Usually when a player is embellishing or faking the reaction comes a noticeable time after the supposed contact. I dont see that at all here
Edit: Its also funny that you are trying your best to make it look like JVR is faking considering you clearly hate the guy
Yes I do dislike him haha (I really don't want to though. I hope he makes me eat my words eventually). And I just said I don't think he is faking this injury! I just don't know if this is the hit that resulted in it, because I don't believe the contact is as direct as you claim it is. Yes, if anything, it is a glancing blow. It is such a glancing blow, that I don't think it's even clear that contact was made (and I certainly wasn't alone in the GDT. That's all.
He missed a handful of games at the end of November/beginning of December with an upper body injury.
Was that injury also a head injury?
From what Holmgren said, it happened during a game against the Islanders (Nov. 23rd) but not because of contact. It was ambiguous at the time but unlikely related to the head.
people who suffer from PCS often experience some psychological symptoms including depression
Yeah, I know. And this is one case where it seems to be happening. Hopefully they're doing something for his mental health on top of his physical health.
...
