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The Webs/Suts Rose Ceremony - All Ryan Suter/Shea Weber FA talk

View Poll Results: Do you think that we should trade Ryan Suter at the deadline?
Yes, we need to get something for him rather than nothing. 18 30.51%
No, he's more valuable than any return that we would get for him. 41 69.49%
Voters: 59. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
01-14-2012, 03:51 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
We have depth on D from an asset point...

But yes, we have less now that we let Hamhuis, Zanon, O'Brien walk.
So in other words we had depth in a position that Dallas had no interest in?

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01-14-2012, 03:55 PM
  #102
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It doesn't come down to one player. Toronto was in a world of hurt when they traded for Kessel. Likewise, Columbus with Carter.

We have been in a "good position" for years, and but have failed to take the right steps to to get in a "great position".

James Neal is looking like a pretty good pickup for Pittsburgh right now in Crosby's absence. He has double what our lead goal scorer has. And they traded for him because they had depth on D... sounds awfully familiar.

Even if we get the elusive goal scorer, it may not take us to the next level. Right now, we have no real 1st line player (Wilson may be the one in time), so adding one is a start. We are extremely green on the back-end, in part because we've let cheap vets like Zanon or O'Brien walk when they wanted to sign. We need a more steady presence back there past Weber/Suter

We'll see how it plays out... but I hope the Weber/Suter get the convincing they need that the team is head in the contender direction.
Kessel was your first example ... then when that horse was beaten some more as to why that deal didn't make sense for the team at the time .. you shift to how Neal is the right example. When Neal scores two more, he'll have twice as many goals as Legwand ... he's not there right now. Pitt is a team that has most of it's scoring concentrated in a few people .. the Preds take a different approach and have depth of scoring .... they have 8 players with 5+ goals, we have 12.

Zanon is an example of a player who didn't make sense for the team at that time for that price. $1.6mil for a 3/4 d-man didn't fit the 2009 constraints. SOB ... the journeyman we mourn like we shipped off Orr or Stevens. Poile should have replaced SOB's size and physical play, but, I have no issue with SOB walking. Maybe I'm looking too holistically at the player, but, it's not hard to understand why SOB is on team number 5 in 6 seasons.

Toronto's world of hurt included Ponikarovski, Stalberg, Grabovski, Kulemin, and Stempniak .... quite a bit of offensive firepower there when Kessel came in.

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01-14-2012, 03:56 PM
  #103
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I haven't seen a single person who doesn't want the team to take that next step. The big issue is in HOW to do it. There's a lot of cost/benefit analysis in play here.

There are always people advocating the high risk, big move. It's sexy, it always comes with name recognition, it's also usually a sink or swim proposition. The Devils went that route with Kovalchuk and they've struggled to make the post season since and are now handcuffed by the cap. Columbus has made repeated moves for the big name player and it's failed for them every time. Toronto went hard after Kessel. As Glenn pointed out, pulling off the Kessel deal in the summer of 09 would have required robbing Peter to pay Paul. Wilson would definitely be gone, maybe Josi or Blum, possibly the pick we packaged in the Fisher deal, plus a roster player to clear cap space.

Neither the Kovy nor the Kessel deals have yet paid off for the NJ or TOR.

The go wild in the FA during the summer route is far from a guarantee either. The Habs went wild in 09 without a huge benefit. Calgary spends to the cap every season without success lately. Big spending is hit or miss. For every Vancouver or Boston there is an Edmonton or Calgary.
As has already been pointed out, that's a statement without context. Toronto was in horrible shape prior to that move. I don't think one can argue against the notion that they are now moving in very good direction now and Kessel (along with other moves like Lupul and even Phaneuf) are key cogs in that move.

New Jersey was in a world of hurt before signing Kovy and their situation has only gotten worse due to their ownership issues. As good as Lou is, he's never shown the same touch since the cap came into existence. They keep trying to hang on, much like Calgary with slightly younger players.

Nashville's situation is different than both of those franchises. While certainly not in the same situation as Pittsburgh, Detroit, or Chicago when each acquired Hossa (strangely enough), they are certainly much closer to those franchises than they are to New Jersey or Toronto. Those acquisitions worked out well for those franchises.

I agree that it's hit or miss. That said, I have a lot of confidence in David Poile to bring bottom six talent (and low end top six talent) into the fold at a reasonable price. I don't have the same confidence in this franchise's ability to draft or groom top-3 level forward talent.

As for plummeting into the abyss like Columbus, I again point to the confidence I have in David Poile to prevent that (along with Barry Trotz- not to be forgotten). I don't think it's fair to make comparisons to the futility in Columbus without considering the different management and coaching groups.

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Boston's handling of the Kessel situation might be more of a usable model for us after looking at most of the big moves the league has seen over the past few years. They parlayed a disgruntled RFA into picks and players fill their holes, improve their overall roster, and take that next step. As distasteful as that is to some, it could be the wisest move forward for Poile in regards to Weber.

To make an improvement this season means looking at what the Islanders, Oilers, Canes, Ducks, and maybe the Bolts or Bugs are willing to move and at what cost. Parise probably doesn't hit the market as long as the Devils are in the hunt. Iginla doesn't get shopped unless the Flames go into rebuild move very soon. Dallas isn't going to move Jamie Benn. It's going to come down to what the asking price is on a guy like Hemsky, Moulson, or B. Ryan.

Boston had more going for them that their handling of Kessel. They drafted Seguin (admitted via the Kessel trade, but it reinforced the fact that they got the #2 overall and not a late first round pick like Nashville would get from Philly, for example). They also brought in Nathan Horton.

As for the guys you mentioned, I do think Parise could be had with the right offer (and, yes, that means some form of overpayment with the right fit). That said, Matt Moulson would be a huge get as would Bobby Ryan.

Nashville needs to stay away from Hemsky.

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01-14-2012, 04:04 PM
  #104
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As has already been pointed out, that's a statement without context. Toronto was in horrible shape prior to that move. I don't think one can argue that they are now moving in very good direction now and Kessel (along with other moves like Lupul and even Phaneuf) are key cogs in that move.

New Jersey was in a world of hurt before signing Kovy and their situation has only gotten worse due to their ownership issues. As good as Lou is, he's never shown the same touch since the cap came into existence. They keep trying to hang on, much like Calgary with slightly younger players.

Nashville's situation is different than both of those franchises. While certainly not in the same situation as Pittsburgh, Detroit, or Chicago when each acquired Hossa (strangely enough), they are certainly much closer to those franchises than they are to New Jersey or Toronto. Those acquisitions worked out well for those franchises.

I agree that it's hit or miss. That said, I have a lot of confidence in David Poile to bring bottom six talent (and low end top six talent) into the fold at a reasonable price. I don't have the same confidence in this franchise's ability to draft or groom top-3 level forward talent.
Toronto's team mentality is a mess ... individually there was a lot of talent when Kessel walked through the door. Ponikarovski put up 20+ in three of the four seasons before the trade. Kulemin was coming off a 15 goal rookie campaign. Hagman was there .... Stempniak ... Grabovski coming off a 20g season.

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01-14-2012, 04:21 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by 101st_fan View Post
Toronto's team mentality is a mess ... individually there was a lot of talent when Kessel walked through the door. Ponikarovski put up 20+ in three of the four seasons before the trade. Kulemin was coming off a 15 goal rookie campaign. Hagman was there .... Stempniak ... Grabovski coming off a 20g season.
To be honest, there was talent, but the majority was mediocre talent at best. The style in which they played boosted their numbers aswell. Put said player in another, more 2way system, and the drop is quite significant. Example, Stajan, Poni, etc.

It was a very large price to pay, but I'm pretty sure both Toronto and Boston are happy with the deal. Toronto gets a current star, and Boston gets a future star..

Sometimes you need to take that risk in giving up more than you think the player is worth, or that you're comfortable giving away.

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01-14-2012, 04:21 PM
  #106
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Kessel was your first example ... then when that horse was beaten some more as to why that deal didn't make sense for the team at the time .. you shift to how Neal is the right example. When Neal scores two more, he'll have twice as many goals as Legwand ... he's not there right now.
Blah Blah. I'm sorry, Neal has 1.8x, not 2x more goals than our leading goal scorer.

I get the story with you... ANY move another team made, you will provide the excuses ("facts" as you call them) as why there's no way on god's earth the Predators could have made the trade.

Those excuses aren't being bought my Suter and Weber at this point.

We have a good team and have for years. But it is very frustration that we've had all the assets and haven't been able to take the next step to a contender. And that's why Suter/Weber are hesitant to sign here long term. Unfortunately, Poile has a 27 year track record with this, and I don't expect it to change in a couple of months.

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01-14-2012, 04:37 PM
  #107
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Blah Blah. I'm sorry, Neal has 1.8x, not 2x more goals than our leading goal scorer.

I get the story with you... ANY good move another team made, you will provide the excuses ("facts" as you call them) as why there's no way on god's earth the Predators could have made the trade.

Those excuses aren't being bought my Suter and Weber at this point.

We have a good team and have for years. But it is very frustration that we've had all the assets and haven't been able to take the next step to a contender. And that's why Suter/Weber are hesitant to sign here long term.
I never said we couldn't for Neal ... I along with others have pointed out the numerous reasons why some of the other dead horses you've tried to resurrect just didn't make sense or work out for the Preds. I don't see anyone on last season's roster that equals Goligoski, but, maybe a combination of Blum/Josi/Ellis plus picks could have done it.

Keep changing your position and posting inaccurate details. It won't change history to make deals that weren't affordable or would have been counterproductive AT THE TIME into suddenly doable moves.

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To be honest, there was talent, but the majority was mediocre talent at best. The style in which they played boosted their numbers aswell. Put said player in another, more 2way system, and the drop is quite significant. Example, Stajan, Poni, etc.

It was a very large price to pay, but I'm pretty sure both Toronto and Boston are happy with the deal. Toronto gets a current star, and Boston gets a future star..

Sometimes you need to take that risk in giving up more than you think the player is worth, or that you're comfortable giving away.
The same one-way/two-way play that bolstered the numbers in Toronto comes into play here. Anyone putting on a Preds sweater will be expected to play at least responsibly in their own zone. Kulemin and Grabovski both put up 30+ last season ... Poni has slipped ... Stalberg is improving with Chicago ... Hagman put up 27 with Dallas then 22 and 20 with Toronto in the years leading up to, and including, the Kessel trade ... so it's not like all of their guys were Halischuk.

Still ... no playoffs for Toronto. I'm sure Boston is very happy with the deal. Burke will keep scrambling with the Leafs.

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01-14-2012, 04:44 PM
  #108
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The same one-way/two-way play that bolstered the numbers in Toronto comes into play here. Anyone putting on a Preds sweater will be expected to play at least responsibly in their own zone. Kulemin and Grabovski both put up 30+ last season ... Poni has slipped ... Stalberg is improving with Chicago ... Hagman put up 27 with Dallas then 22 and 20 with Toronto in the years leading up to, and including, the Kessel trade ... so it's not like all of their guys were Halischuk.

Still ... no playoffs for Toronto. I'm sure Boston is very happy with the deal. Burke will keep scrambling with the Leafs.
All I'm saying is high-risk moves on occasion are needed in order to reach success. Playing it safe all the time will never get you anywhere.

Don't come back at me with Detroit. That's a rare case of luck and incredible scouting. Not all organizations are capable of that.

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01-14-2012, 04:50 PM
  #109
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All I'm saying is high-risk moves on occasion are needed in order to reach success. Playing it safe all the time will never get you anywhere.

Don't come back at me with Detroit. That's a rare case of luck and incredible scouting. Not all organizations are capable of that.
Detroit also had a ridiculous payroll advantage in the early 2000's, and now they benefit from guys willing to sign reasonable contracts to keep talent together. Something that definitely has not happened so far in Nashville.

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01-14-2012, 05:01 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Tootoo Train View Post
All I'm saying is high-risk moves on occasion are needed in order to reach success. Playing it safe all the time will never get you anywhere.

Don't come back at me with Detroit. That's a rare case of luck and incredible scouting. Not all organizations are capable of that.
It has to be acceptable risk. Busting in a door with a battering ram, wearing body armor, and bringing a few of your most heavily armed friends is risky, but mitigated .... covering yourself with chemlights and running in naked and alone is beyond risky and into the realm of stupid.

Wilson + picks + possibly one Arnott/Erat/Legwand in 2009 was beyond acceptable risk for a player who was still unsigned and could then just go chase offer sheets after asking for more than we could pay out monetarily. It got past what was affordable and sensible for the team at that point. At that time, $1.6mil for a 2nd or 3rd pair d-man was out of the price range which is why we let Zanon walk.

Looking at Parise .... SK or Hornqvist (preferrably SK from my point of view) + one of Blum/Josi/Ellis + a pick or two is probably doable from a Preds perspective ... but probably not from Lou's. If they ask for Wilson + Hornqvist + Josi + a 1st or 2nd .... is that acceptable? I see that as a bit too costly.

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01-14-2012, 05:08 PM
  #111
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Blah Blah. I'm sorry, Neal has 1.8x, not 2x more goals than our leading goal scorer.

I get the story with you... ANY move another team made, you will provide the excuses ("facts" as you call them) as why there's no way on god's earth the Predators could have made the trade.

Those excuses aren't being bought my Suter and Weber at this point.

We have a good team and have for years. But it is very frustration that we've had all the assets and haven't been able to take the next step to a contender. And that's why Suter/Weber are hesitant to sign here long term. Unfortunately, Poile has a 27 year track record with this, and I don't expect it to change in a couple of months.
Not to be nit-picky but playing with a player named Evgeni something something would have a huge impact compared to playing with some like David Legwand.

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01-14-2012, 05:09 PM
  #112
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Burke 1 Stanley Cup
Poile 0 Stanley Cup

Burke made huge trade for Pronger earlier that year. That seemed to work out pretty well.

Burke now has Toronto in a position to be a playoff team this year after fixing the mess that he inherited. I am not asking for a move for the sake of a move, I am asking for a move to become elite. We aren't exactly going to be an elite team if we lose Weber and or Suter.

Not to mention I don't really trust Poile's son to do any great work with our RFA's. We saw how that went last time.

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01-14-2012, 05:51 PM
  #113
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Burke 1 Stanley Cup
Poile 0 Stanley Cup

Burke made huge trade for Pronger earlier that year. That seemed to work out pretty well.

Burke now has Toronto in a position to be a playoff team this year after fixing the mess that he inherited. I am not asking for a move for the sake of a move, I am asking for a move to become elite. We aren't exactly going to be an elite team if we lose Weber and or Suter.

Not to mention I don't really trust Poile's son to do any great work with our RFA's. We saw how that went last time.
Wasn't the RFA case dropped?

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01-14-2012, 05:55 PM
  #114
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Wasn't the RFA case dropped?
Yes but the poile haters will wave that bloody shirt every chance they get... Even though it didn't cost us anything and was never evenproven to be a mistake

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01-14-2012, 06:23 PM
  #115
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Burke 1 Stanley Cup
Poile 0 Stanley Cup

Burke made huge trade for Pronger earlier that year. That seemed to work out pretty well.

Burke now has Toronto in a position to be a playoff team this year after fixing the mess that he inherited. I am not asking for a move for the sake of a move, I am asking for a move to become elite. We aren't exactly going to be an elite team if we lose Weber and or Suter.

Not to mention I don't really trust Poile's son to do any great work with our RFA's. We saw how that went last time.

Burke came into a pretty good Anaheim team. That cake was baked ... Pronger was just the icing. The Canucks team he was building has yet to win a Cup. We'll see if Toronto makes it to the playoffs this season or not. Currently 7th, 1pt ahead of the 8th &9th place teams. The teams he's built the past three seasons haven't made it in .... maybe the 4th year gets it done.

Everybody is looking for Poile to find the right player at the right price. There is a great deal of disagreement what that player and price are ... but I've yet to see any fan who doesn't want this team to make a deep run.

Where's the proof on the Poile's son RFA accustions? Fehr and the NHLPA said there was an issue, the league and team said there wasn't and that's as far as it went. No players became unrestricted as a result ... there weren't any huge overpayments ... the NHLPA didn't put up a fight about it.

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01-14-2012, 10:34 PM
  #116
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Burke came into a pretty good Anaheim team. That cake was baked ... Pronger was just the icing. The Canucks team he was building has yet to win a Cup. We'll see if Toronto makes it to the playoffs this season or not. Currently 7th, 1pt ahead of the 8th &9th place teams. The teams he's built the past three seasons haven't made it in .... maybe the 4th year gets it done.

Everybody is looking for Poile to find the right player at the right price. There is a great deal of disagreement what that player and price are ... but I've yet to see any fan who doesn't want this team to make a deep run.

Where's the proof on the Poile's son RFA accustions? Fehr and the NHLPA said there was an issue, the league and team said there wasn't and that's as far as it went. No players became unrestricted as a result ... there weren't any huge overpayments ... the NHLPA didn't put up a fight about it.
Yeah, but it was still a trade that made them elite. That is the point.

Again, we just agree to disagree about the pieces and price needed.

Its pretty much been confirmed by every source that Poile's son screwed the pooch. It even says on the Preds main site that Poile's son is responsible for RFA contracts. Why do you think it was swept under the rug so quickly? Poile was covering for his son.

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01-14-2012, 10:47 PM
  #117
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Yeah, but it was still a trade that made them elite. That is the point.

Again, we just agree to disagree about the pieces and price needed.

Its pretty much been confirmed by every source that Poile's son screwed the pooch. It even says on the Preds main site that Poile's son is responsible for RFA contracts. Why do you think it was swept under the rug so quickly? Poile was covering for his son.
And what damage was done with the RFA situation this past offseason? None. We kept all our RFA's on decent deals. There are quite a few grasping at straws with blaming Poile's son for something that didn't cause any damage to the team. It reminds me of a guy dating a girl and finding the littlest of things to complain about because he wants to sabotage the relationship. At the end of the day we kept all our RFA's, two of whom scored some pretty nice goals tonight for us.

One other thing I'd like to say about Poile and his moves or lack of moves. Poile can only make moves if other GM's agree to the deal on the other end. Who's to say Poile hasn't made these offers to GM's and they've balked at what he's put on the table. It's conjecture by all of us on here when we have only parts of the story. Toronto and us were in on Kessel and it seems that most of us know Wilson was part of the package Boston wanted, Poile didn't want any part of it. And so it works the other way too, if a GM offers Poile a deal, Poile has to think it makes us a better team today and down the line.

So all that said, it takes two to tango and deals just don't happen overnight. We as fans see the need for an elite forward. If we see it, I'm sure Poile sees it too. Problem is, those guys are usually picked at the top of the first round and you have to suck to get those guys. We have slowly been building for a while and getting a little bit better every year. I get encouraged at the depth we have on our team right now and in the farm. We could afford to deal some of that depth to try and land an elite forward but as I said earlier about GM's and career suicide, if Poile makes a move to land someone and gives up some depth in the process, while losing the piece he acquired and possibly Suter and Weber, he's out of a job and we're in a worse position because of it. He has to make sure that any move he makes is the right one in the sense he has to know Weber and Suter are coming back because if he makes a move and they bolt, it's all for nothing. He also can't trade blue line depth if he can't re-sign one or both of them as the depth are the pieces that will take their places.

I'd like to see Poile gamble more but after watching the way the team played tonight, I'm encouraged by the play of the youngsters. And we did it without Smithson again, amazing.

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01-14-2012, 10:52 PM
  #118
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Yeah, but it was still a trade that made them elite. That is the point.

Again, we just agree to disagree about the pieces and price needed.

Its pretty much been confirmed by every source that Poile's son screwed the pooch. It even says on the Preds main site that Poile's son is responsible for RFA contracts. Why do you think it was swept under the rug so quickly? Poile was covering for his son.
We we've made many trades from Witt to Forsberg to Fisher ... with varying degrees of success. We can only trade for what fits in the budget that season. The Fisher trade worked out ... the Forsberg trade had a ton of potential but fizzled with injuries as the conference leading 51 win teams met in the 1st round (the only time that has happened). Last season's leading scorer came to us via trade for players we were letting go to FA ... SOB came via trade ... but Poile never trades. There's a difference at improving from say the 95th percentile and from the 85th percentile and the Ducks started as one hell of a roster in 05-06 and just got better with the addition of Pronger.

Exactly.

If the league or NHLPA make a case of the alleged RFA mishandling, the Preds can't sweep it under the rug. One statement from the union, no pressing to make players unrestricted and the league saying everything was done properly. No evidence has hit the public domain yet. Fehr likes to throw things out there and see what sticks. He did in MLB and he still does. The RFA accusations didn't stick.

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01-14-2012, 11:48 PM
  #119
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01-15-2012, 12:01 AM
  #120
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anyhow, anaheim has scouted us pretty hard the past few games. 4 guys in particular. you can scour twitter if you want. guy is a reputable source.

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01-15-2012, 12:02 AM
  #121
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Yeah yeah. Don't feed me no excuses

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01-15-2012, 12:07 AM
  #122
token grinder
formerly sirryan189
 
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
Yeah yeah. Don't feed me no excuses
don't poke the bear.....

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01-15-2012, 12:08 AM
  #123
TMI
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I will heed your warning only if it's a grizzly.

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01-15-2012, 12:22 AM
  #124
Roman Yoshi
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Originally Posted by token grinder View Post
It is hard to when some posters come off as really misguided.


anyhow, anaheim has scouted us pretty hard the past few games. 4 guys in particular. you can scour twitter if you want. guy is a reputable source.
Just who are you calling misguided?

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Old
01-15-2012, 12:30 AM
  #125
NoNecksCurse
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Quote:
Originally Posted by token grinder View Post
It is hard to when some posters come off as really misguided.


anyhow, anaheim has scouted us pretty hard the past few games. 4 guys in particular. you can scour twitter if you want. guy is a reputable source.
what you think token? scouts for possible trades for ryan including our prospects blum, ellis, josi, etc ?

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