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Sportsnet Magazine: Inside The Long Pathetic Fall Of The Once Great Canadiens Empire

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Old
01-15-2012, 07:32 PM
  #201
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by habfaninvictoria View Post
Of course race is different than language, because one is visible the other is not.
The fans want to hear from the coach themselves. They can't do that if the guy doesn't speak their language. I get where they are coming from here.

And it's one thing to add a unilingual coach when you've got a cup caliber team and might win a championship, it's quite another when you've got a bubble team and hire a rookie Anglo with no head coaching NHL experience. That's just a boneheaded move.
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Originally Posted by habfaninvictoria View Post
The french thing has slowed us down. Regardless of whether we have french players on our team it is the primary target of every columnist outside of the gazette in the province. The appetite for a french star ultimately cost us Lats. He couldn't deliver or handle the pressure. Was pushed far too soon and pressure for him to be on the top line was fodder for any fool who could type. Lappy found a perfect role in Vancouver. He could have played that role here, but there was so much external pressure for him to be top 6, a role he is not suited for, that ultimately the habs moved him as well.

The language of the NHL is English. Very rarely would the right candidate be available who is bilingual and the most qualified. This team however is required to pick from a very small pool. Hitchcock is a great coach, and ineligible to coach here. How ******** is that.

No superstars. Correct. Not likely to change any time soon. If you were a star in this league would you come to a market where your every move is dissected and you have to work for a coach that was chosen for his linguistic skill not his hockey knowledge.
You're missing the bus here man.

First, superstars rarely become UFA's to begin with. Their teams won't let them. And you're right, a lot don't want to come here. Whether you're Montreal or some other team it's hard to get established superstars from other teams anyway.

SO WHY GO THIS ROUTE?

GO THE DRAFT ROUTE. If you draft a superstar all those problems go away. An 18 year old kid is just happy to be drafted. He's not going to say no if Montreal drafts him. That's the solution here. That's how you get superstars!

The language issue... isn't that big an issue at all. It's not what's holding us back. What's holding us back is that we don't have great players to begin with. THAT's the problem.

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Old
01-15-2012, 09:45 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
You are a pathetic, irritating person. I have a hunch, I can't prove it, but I have a hunch that you are in absolutely no control over your life. You tend to enjoy making attacks at people's intelligence,
Not really. But hey, if it makes you feel better about yourself, you can keep believing that.

Quote:
tend to overstate the nature of your person with statements like "it's just impossible in so many ways," and constantly refer to an "impatience" or "frustration" with other people.
I'm not frustrated. Impatience and frustration aren't mutually exclusive. The frustration seems to be from you. Again, instead of admitting your errors, instead of admitting you are wrong, like the mature individual you seem to think you are, you go on a frustrated rant, filled with speculations to, tada, satisfy/protect your ego, just like I stated in a previous post in this thread. Here's the difference, I've often admitted at being wrong, no one is always right, yet those who learn are the ones who don't deny their mistakes but learn from them. Guess what, you don't seem able to do this. My nature as a person is the same as anyone. My behavior, talent, intelligence, shortcomings and such, are all predicated by my genes adapting through the influence of the overall environment I've lived in up to this point. Whatever attributes I've gained are a product of what I was given. And consequently, I've been groomed in a family where BS wasn't permitted, where pragmatism, rationality and curiosity were the focal point of my education.

Also, when I said that "it's just impossible in so many ways,", you made an ego-based conclusion of it. You got it wrong. But from this I can somewhat conclude that you are highly susceptible.


Quote:
This leads me to believe that you are a small person of stature: either professionally, physically, sexually, or all three.
Again, if this makes you feel better about yourself, keep believing and pretending that. I don't mind, because I understand why you think that. It has to do with yourself rather than me.

Quote:
This isn't anything from Freud, either.
Uhm, yes it is. Freudian, as the simplistic psychological conclusion you made based on an exageration and faulty biased perception, and overall, junk psychology, pop psychology. Oh, he says 'this' or acts like 'this', so it automatically means 'that'. Freud was really good at that. Fortunately, that science has evolved, has included a major part which Freud couldn't see (not because of his incapacity, but because science wasn't there yet), which is neurology. When put into this light, most of Freud's conclusions were simplistic associations, some right, some wrong.

Quote:
This is a lesson from real-life.
Gee, did you read yourself there. Hey kiddo, get real. Most life lessons I've had a long time ago. Get off that pedestal.

Quote:
People who have things going their way in their lives aren't "impatient" and "frustrated,"
Impatience is a common (meaning EVERYBODY) human behavior caused by many many things. Again, you're using pop psychology. For one, you use one situation and extrapolate it to a generality. Secondly, I'm not an impatient person, nor am I frustrated (don't forget, you added that one). If you actually read what I said, you'd understand that you're way off base. You should also realize that succesful people are often the most impatient, as with success comes expectation, with expectation comes stress, with stress comes impatience. Impatience can be caused by other things, and in this case, I'll repeat, I'm impatient at the use of absolutisms from people who talk as if they knew everything without even giving a proper fact-based narrative, something which is rampant here. Accumulation of this, and the spread of this has me further impatient at the mentality that prevails around here. And I'm FAR from the only one. I know many posters who have left here because of people just like you.

Quote:
don't feel the need to overstate the nature of their grandure to complete strangers on the internet, and definitely aren't disrespectful ***** on the internet towards complete strangers.
I'm not here to satisfy your ego, nor am I here to satisfy my own. I see a mistake, I see an exageration, I see an outright use of absolutism, I react concordingly. I don't care about your sensibilities. Let's turn the table here. If you had any backbone, your reply would be much different. The one thing I did call you on was how childish your outlook of management was. It is childish to believe the management of the last 10 years see drafting as an after-thought. Grow-up, take it like a man, and learn from it. Also, I never talk about my 'grandeur'. I might belittle you, but that doesn't I feel I am better than anyone else.

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You're nothing but a chicken hawk. You don't talk this way in real life because you can't. Someone; be it your wife, your boss, or anyone in the vicinity who is higher on the pecking order than you; namely, a lot of people; would stop you.
You couldn't be further from the truth. I've actually had a professional promotion put on hold because I spoke my mind too freely, the situation finally got resolved when the person put a little water in his wine like we say in French. And the same as in the present situation, it had more to do with the other person not being able to admit their mistake, and having their ego take over reason.

It's funny how you talk all high and mighty about how my impatience and supposed frustration are signs of this and that, yet you've resolved to using many false assumptions to attack my character, much more than I ever did in this thread. It kinda feels like you're doing a lot of projection here. And again there's a huge difference between what I did and what you are doing in this post. My reactions and conclusions were directly based on what you said. Your reaction is based on an array of unproven (other than simplistic, ill-fitted pop psychology) assumptions on the person that I am. Notice also the difference in how I say that something you said is childish or illogical or whatever. I'm attacking what you said, not yourself directly. You do the total opposite, you attack my character directly, based on nothing that you know of me other than some posts on a hockey board. The arrogance is from you. We could meet in person if you like, I'll still talk the same way. The differnce with people I know, people who are close to me, like family and friends is that I care about their sensibilities, so I might use a more subtle approach. But as far as common people I meet everyday go, I act the same way as I do here. We could meet in person too, so it might eliminate all your ego-based preconceptions, I could show you how tall I am (not that tall, 5'11), my big schlong, and the contents of my wallet, but that would be just ridiculous, right, as ridiculous as your conclusions.

Quote:
Having read Lafleur's Guy's post, which was responding to your original post, there's nothing further to be said. All of your arguments are pretty thoroughly refuted there.
Nothing was refuted. You're talking about the king of twisting and ignoring arguments that don't fit his bias. You're again using a cop-out. I was talking to you, you again avoid the issue and make it about something else. As for LafleursGuy, he'll start to get it the day he understands it's a business, not some video game where you can throw away season after season.

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There's a few points to be made on top of it, but I scarcely think that they would convince you or any of your followers anyways.
The scarcity here is you trying to defend your points with strong arguments.

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Please have yourself a horrible day.
Yeah, and I'm supposed to be the frustated one here.

I don't feel any ill-will towards you, because I am not frustrated. I find most of your drivel to be mostly amusing and quite easy to respond to. It's just cute how you get all wrapped up about this.


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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post


don't let him bother you... ignore is much more useful. same crappy posts and constantly refuted arguments for years, doesn't contribute anything of value to interesting discussions.

not worth your time.
Yeah, that coming from Mister out-of-context. You've actually described yourself pretty well there. Are you still looking for that 'new' scientific method?


Last edited by Ozymandias: 01-15-2012 at 10:24 PM.
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Old
01-15-2012, 10:56 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by bjac View Post
Why is there 2 camps? Why is it black and white?
One camp believes in wearing the sweaters of the Canadiens and thinking that its cool to be a Habs fan.

One camp believes that not winning a Cup in 18 years is a crying shame and this camp is screaming for a change in management which has allowed this great franchise to fall so far down.

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Old
01-15-2012, 11:04 PM
  #204
SouthernHab
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Not really. But hey, if it makes you feel better about yourself, you can keep believing that.



I'm not frustrated. Impatience and frustration aren't mutually exclusive. The frustration seems to be from you. Again, instead of admitting your errors, instead of admitting you are wrong, like the mature individual you seem to think you are, you go on a frustrated rant, filled with speculations to, tada, satisfy/protect your ego, just like I stated in a previous post in this thread. Here's the difference, I've often admitted at being wrong, no one is always right, yet those who learn are the ones who don't deny their mistakes but learn from them. Guess what, you don't seem able to do this. My nature as a person is the same as anyone. My behavior, talent, intelligence, shortcomings and such, are all predicated by my genes adapting through the influence of the overall environment I've lived in up to this point. Whatever attributes I've gained are a product of what I was given. And consequently, I've been groomed in a family where BS wasn't permitted, where pragmatism, rationality and curiosity were the focal point of my education.

Also, when I said that "it's just impossible in so many ways,", you made an ego-based conclusion of it. You got it wrong. But from this I can somewhat conclude that you are highly susceptible.




Again, if this makes you feel better about yourself, keep believing and pretending that. I don't mind, because I understand why you think that. It has to do with yourself rather than me.



Uhm, yes it is. Freudian, as the simplistic psychological conclusion you made based on an exageration and faulty biased perception, and overall, junk psychology, pop psychology. Oh, he says 'this' or acts like 'this', so it automatically means 'that'. Freud was really good at that. Fortunately, that science has evolved, has included a major part which Freud couldn't see (not because of his incapacity, but because science wasn't there yet), which is neurology. When put into this light, most of Freud's conclusions were simplistic associations, some right, some wrong.



Gee, did you read yourself there. Hey kiddo, get real. Most life lessons I've had a long time ago. Get off that pedestal.



Impatience is a common (meaning EVERYBODY) human behavior caused by many many things. Again, you're using pop psychology. For one, you use one situation and extrapolate it to a generality. Secondly, I'm not an impatient person, nor am I frustrated (don't forget, you added that one). If you actually read what I said, you'd understand that you're way off base. You should also realize that succesful people are often the most impatient, as with success comes expectation, with expectation comes stress, with stress comes impatience. Impatience can be caused by other things, and in this case, I'll repeat, I'm impatient at the use of absolutisms from people who talk as if they knew everything without even giving a proper fact-based narrative, something which is rampant here. Accumulation of this, and the spread of this has me further impatient at the mentality that prevails around here. And I'm FAR from the only one. I know many posters who have left here because of people just like you.



I'm not here to satisfy your ego, nor am I here to satisfy my own. I see a mistake, I see an exageration, I see an outright use of absolutism, I react concordingly. I don't care about your sensibilities. Let's turn the table here. If you had any backbone, your reply would be much different. The one thing I did call you on was how childish your outlook of management was. It is childish to believe the management of the last 10 years see drafting as an after-thought. Grow-up, take it like a man, and learn from it. Also, I never talk about my 'grandeur'. I might belittle you, but that doesn't I feel I am better than anyone else.



You couldn't be further from the truth. I've actually had a professional promotion put on hold because I spoke my mind too freely, the situation finally got resolved when the person put a little water in his wine like we say in French. And the same as in the present situation, it had more to do with the other person not being able to admit their mistake, and having their ego take over reason.

It's funny how you talk all high and mighty about how my impatience and supposed frustration are signs of this and that, yet you've resolved to using many false assumptions to attack my character, much more than I ever did in this thread. It kinda feels like you're doing a lot of projection here. And again there's a huge difference between what I did and what you are doing in this post. My reactions and conclusions were directly based on what you said. Your reaction is based on an array of unproven (other than simplistic, ill-fitted pop psychology) assumptions on the person that I am. Notice also the difference in how I say that something you said is childish or illogical or whatever. I'm attacking what you said, not yourself directly. You do the total opposite, you attack my character directly, based on nothing that you know of me other than some posts on a hockey board. The arrogance is from you. We could meet in person if you like, I'll still talk the same way. The differnce with people I know, people who are close to me, like family and friends is that I care about their sensibilities, so I might use a more subtle approach. But as far as common people I meet everyday go, I act the same way as I do here. We could meet in person too, so it might eliminate all your ego-based preconceptions, I could show you how tall I am (not that tall, 5'11), my big schlong, and the contents of my wallet, but that would be just ridiculous, right, as ridiculous as your conclusions.



Nothing was refuted. You're talking about the king of twisting and ignoring arguments that don't fit his bias. You're again using a cop-out. I was talking to you, you again avoid the issue and make it about something else. As for LafleursGuy, he'll start to get it the day he understands it's a business, not some video game where you can throw away season after season.



The scarcity here is you trying to defend your points with strong arguments.



Yeah, and I'm supposed to be the frustated one here.

I don't feel any ill-will towards you, because I am not frustrated. I find most of your drivel to be mostly amusing and quite easy to respond to. It's just cute how you get all wrapped up about this.




Yeah, that coming from Mister out-of-context. You've actually described yourself pretty well there. Are you still looking for that 'new' scientific method?

Pierre Gauthier, is that you?

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Old
01-15-2012, 11:06 PM
  #205
Et le But
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
One camp believes in wearing the sweaters of the Canadiens and thinking that its cool to be a Habs fan.

One camp believes that not winning a Cup in 18 years is a crying shame and this camp is screaming for a change in management which has allowed this great franchise to fall so far down.
When you characterize things in such absolute, black and white terms, you completely miss the point that more or less everyone who disgrees with you is trying to make. There is no linear path to success no matter how much you are in love with your own opinions.

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01-15-2012, 11:11 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
When you characterize things in such absolute, black and white terms, you completely miss the point that more or less everyone who disgrees with you is trying to make. There is no linear path to success no matter how much you are in love with your own opinions.
Cmon man, this is a message board (actually it is HFBoards). If I quantified every generalization into its own separate category(put parentheses around), I would end up with an essay (posts) like ozymandias and that is worthless (to a lot of people).

There are no absolutes in life. There are trends however.

The people who support PG (typically) dont place much emphasis on winning the Cup and even argue (sometimes) that "we" who want a Cup are acting (at times) as if we are spoiled little entitled brats. And the trends in that "camp" are evident (well, only in several posts) in this thread (if you can find the posts after ozymandias novels have eaten up the bandwidth) where people say that we are the Canadiens and that makes us (well maybe not really superior but better) superior even though we havent won the Cup in 18 years.

So yeah, no absolutes in life. We agree.

See, just for you (and maybe some other posters as well), I generalized it up.

PS. What you call an absolute, other people might just refer to that as an opinion.


Last edited by SouthernHab: 01-15-2012 at 11:17 PM.
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Old
01-16-2012, 11:52 AM
  #207
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When you characterize things in such absolute, black and white terms, you completely miss the point that more or less everyone who disgrees with you is trying to make. There is no linear path to success no matter how much you are in love with your own opinions.
When Gainey first took over the team and began his 'rebuild' I felt he could've done so more aggressivley. That said though, I supported him. He had a PLAN. I didn't necessarily agree with everything he was doing but at least he was building through the draft and didn't seem to be making kneejerk reactive trades all the time. He restored some stability to a franchise that desperately needed it and we seemed for a while to at least be on the right track.

I don't see that now. Not only are we not rebuilding, the plan seems to change on a day by day basis. We need speed... no, we need size. We're putting an anglo in charge... no we're not he's ineterm didn't we mention that?

Again though, we STILL aren't getting superstars. We're STILL not any further ahead than we've been and we don't seem to be going anywhere anytime soon because the assets we're trading away aren't coming back with first rounders.

We're going to do what we always do and that's try to go on a run to make 8th. Maybe it might even work but we're not going to be further ahead in the long run. It's just perpetuating the same old thing as yesterday. We've stood here before inside the pouring rain with the world turning circles running round our brain. I guess I was just hoping that we could end PG's reign because quite frankly... it's been a pain.

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Old
01-16-2012, 12:15 PM
  #208
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wonder if they will write an article if the laffs keep falling out of the playoff and miss making them again?

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01-16-2012, 01:33 PM
  #209
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wronggg
How is that wrong?

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01-17-2012, 02:30 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
80 through 93 Montreal was consistently one of the top 5-6 teams in the league. Those 2 cups were entirely deserved. Any other franchise that's a golden age. In Montreal it gets dumped on because it wasn't the 70's or 50's. The talent they dealt away for nothing 95 on was what killed the franchise.
I was here. I watched all those games. The Habs were NOT the cream of the league in 89 or 93. People who think so have the same rose coloured glasses as the HAbs management did in those days, handing out contracts to guys like Lyle Odelein, who is an ok D, but not a franchise cornerstone.

It is not dumping on a team because you are not a cheerleader.

The talent they gave away was not the problem, it was the guys they kept and the guys they got in return.

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01-17-2012, 02:36 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
The fans want to hear from the coach themselves. They can't do that if the guy doesn't speak their language. I get where they are coming from here.

And it's one thing to add a unilingual coach when you've got a cup caliber team and might win a championship, it's quite another when you've got a bubble team and hire a rookie Anglo with no head coaching NHL experience. That's just a boneheaded move. .
I just want to pick up on something you said here, it is something I have heard repeately since Cunneyworth took over.

Cunneyworth was not HIRED to take Martin's job. He was already an employee. He was asked to take on new responsibilities on an interim basis.

The difference between that and going out, interviewing people and selecting someone for a job is pretty obvious.


No one who has a language agenda seems to acknowledge that point in any degree.

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01-17-2012, 02:39 PM
  #212
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I was here. I watched all those games. The Habs were NOT the cream of the league in 89 or 93. People who think so have the same rose coloured glasses as the HAbs management did in those days, handing out contracts to guys like Lyle Odelein, who is an ok D, but not a franchise cornerstone.

It is not dumping on a team because you are not a cheerleader.

The talent they gave away was not the problem, it was the guys they kept and the guys they got in return.
You can think that all you want. The evidence speaks against you though. That era's only sin was not being as good as the 70's Canadiens (who could be?). Consistantly one of the best records in the league. Consistantly one of the best goal differential. Playing in one of the toughest divisions. The thing was they didn't get much attention probably because they were the premier defensive team of an offensive age.

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01-17-2012, 03:10 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by Joe Cole View Post
I just want to pick up on something you said here, it is something I have heard repeately since Cunneyworth took over.

Cunneyworth was not HIRED to take Martin's job. He was already an employee. He was asked to take on new responsibilities on an interim basis.

The difference between that and going out, interviewing people and selecting someone for a job is pretty obvious.

No one who has a language agenda seems to acknowledge that point in any degree.
It doesn't really matter does it? I mean they came in and botched this thing so badly it was over before it started. The (entirely predictable) crapstorm came and PG threw him under the bus.
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
You can think that all you want. The evidence speaks against you though. That era's only sin was not being as good as the 70's Canadiens (who could be?). Consistantly one of the best records in the league. Consistantly one of the best goal differential. Playing in one of the toughest divisions. The thing was they didn't get much attention probably because they were the premier defensive team of an offensive age.
The Habs were a pretty good team. Best in the league? For a couple of years in the late 80s it was them the Flames and the Oilers. We didn't have any franchise scorers but we did have a ( guy who turned out to be bi-polar) 50 goal scorer going for us.

We were kind of like the NJ Devils. Good defensively, supreme goaltending and scoring that was decent enough that we could win games.

I often wonder what would've happened if we had a franchise scorer to go along with that group. We would've been absolutely invincible. Too bad Doug Wickenheiser didn't pan out. Pollock set us up beautifully with another number one but it didn't work out. You put a franchise scorer on that roster and we win more cups than we did. Good thing we had a franchise goalie

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01-17-2012, 03:19 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
You can think that all you want. The evidence speaks against you though. That era's only sin was not being as good as the 70's Canadiens (who could be?). Consistantly one of the best records in the league. Consistantly one of the best goal differential. Playing in one of the toughest divisions. The thing was they didn't get much attention probably because they were the premier defensive team of an offensive age.
I think this is (probably second behind easy comparisons to the 70s) a primary reason the 80s and early 90s Habs are so underrated. That was the era of ridiculous scoring. The Habs had a lot of very good forwards but the only ones who approached elite numbers were Naslund and Richer. The only superstar was a goalie. No flashy superstars to identify the team with.

The Habs weren't the best of the best in the 80s, which of course means it was different from the 70s or before that. But almost every year they ranged from good to great.

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01-17-2012, 03:22 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
One camp believes in wearing the sweaters of the Canadiens and thinking that its cool to be a Habs fan.

One camp believes that not winning a Cup in 18 years is a crying shame and this camp is screaming for a change in management which has allowed this great franchise to fall so far down.
not just winning a cup - just making the finals or having a team thats usually a top 4 conference team and is usually considered a contender

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01-17-2012, 04:34 PM
  #216
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So at the end of the season when I write my blog on the Leafs not making it entitled:

Inside the short pathetic fall of the Leafs I'm sure nobody will be angry I say this because they'll be in 9th.

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01-17-2012, 09:33 PM
  #217
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So at the end of the season when I write my blog on the Leafs not making it entitled:

Inside the short pathetic fall of the Leafs I'm sure nobody will be angry I say this because they'll be in 9th.
The difference between us and the Leafs is that at this point people expect them to be bad. They've been mostly bad for decades. That hasn't been the case with us up until Roy left.

In a way it's kind of a positive to have negative stuff like this written when you haven't done well because it shows that people hold us to a higher standard. My only hope is that somebody up in the Hab ownership group reads the article and realizes that we haven't been good enough and actually takes steps to correct the situation.

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01-18-2012, 10:08 AM
  #218
Joe Cole
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It doesn't really matter does it? I mean they came in and botched this thing so badly it was over before it started. The (entirely predictable) crapstorm came and PG threw him under the bus.
Yes, it does matter. It is the entire point of the "they hired a unilingual coach" arguement. The Habs did not do an all out search of every possible francophone coach and decide on RC. The Habs did not say "lets fire a bilingual francphone and hire a unilingual anglo." They made a decision about a coach and gave this responsibilities temporarily to his most senior assistant.

If people cannnot see that their is an ocean between the decision to hire someone and asking a current employee to take on additional responsibilities, well, I believe they have a preset objective. And it has little to do with hockey.


I agree the Habs totally botched that move up, but unfortunately we are getting used to the Habs not properly handling PR issues. PG throwing him under the bus says more about PG then it ever will about Cunneyworth, in my opinion.

The Habs need to become a premiere team in this league at every level, starting with the structure of the hockey organization.

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01-18-2012, 02:34 PM
  #219
Lafleurs Guy
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Yes, it does matter. It is the entire point of the "they hired a unilingual coach" arguement. The Habs did not do an all out search of every possible francophone coach and decide on RC. The Habs did not say "lets fire a bilingual francphone and hire a unilingual anglo." They made a decision about a coach and gave this responsibilities temporarily to his most senior assistant.

If people cannnot see that their is an ocean between the decision to hire someone and asking a current employee to take on additional responsibilities, well, I believe they have a preset objective. And it has little to do with hockey.


I agree the Habs totally botched that move up, but unfortunately we are getting used to the Habs not properly handling PR issues. PG throwing him under the bus says more about PG then it ever will about Cunneyworth, in my opinion.

The Habs need to become a premiere team in this league at every level, starting with the structure of the hockey organization.
Of course it says more about PG. Cunneyworth is the innocent lamb here, I have no problem with him personally.

Bottom line is we both agree that PG botched this and probably should be replaced.

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