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01-15-2012, 02:25 PM
  #151
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Originally Posted by puckish66 View Post
10 years is a nutty timeframe. You could build a contender, win a Cup, fall apart, get the top pick, build a contender and win another Cup in 10 years.

Besides, Terry HIMSELF framed it as a three-year plan. And he certainly is acting like someone who's fast-tracking the plan. Why put yourself in cap jail in year one?
You can build a Cup winner in a shorter timeframe if you get things right the first time and there are no setbacks.

What are the odds that will be the case here with a rookie owner?

My 10 year timeframe is looking at how long it took Mark Cuban to win his first ring with the Mavs.

It took him about a decade. And his desire to win and to pay whatever cost to do so is on par with Pegula.

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01-15-2012, 02:27 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Fatal System Ehrhoff View Post
ITT people who feel that on-ice performance is integral to gauging a franchise's status branded children.
Sure, the franchise's on-ice success is ultimately what determines the health of the franchise, but that on-ice performance moment to moment or even season to season may change dramatically, while the franchise may be healthier than ever in the sense that it's got the stability and financial wherewithal to do whatever is needed to compete. That much we have. And I have faith that, with the deep pockets in place, sooner or later we're going to see the on-ice product do what expensive teams usually do: win.

So I know everyone hates this team, and I do too, but that's not the be-all and end-all of what the Sabres franchise is about. Sooner or later, money will get results. I feel good about that much.

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01-15-2012, 02:31 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by slip View Post
I disagree with the bolded. I think it's pretty clear Ruff has lost this team, and I also think it's pretty clear Regier lacks the ability to diagnose his team's needs and then go out and fill those holes. It's been 5 years since our depth down the middle got destroyed, and Darcy hasn't done **** about it.

And that's the point: we're talking about half a decade of mediocre hockey, with Regier and Ruff at the helm. When the kids have been in the car for several years with no end of the long, winding road in sight, do they not have to right to ask "are we there yet?"
You think Ruff lost the team in mid-November?

The team was in first place in the division in mid-November. Things were clicking in a lot of areas.

And make no mistake, when Pegula and Black are looking at this thing, it is very clear that they are rating Ruff and Regier on what they have done under there watch without "handcuffs".

It's obvious to me that Pegula isn't looking at what Ruff and Regier did as a negative. It's obvious that he's amazed at what they did under bad circumstances. And Pegula believes that he has changed those circumstances and everything will be great now.

And it's also obvious that Pegula has a "high panic threshold".

So while fans are impatient, the #1 fan isn't and that is what really matters.

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Originally Posted by slip View Post
Let's stop pretending as if the crappy product on the ice is not the culmination of many years of front office stupidity that includes uninspired coaching, shoddy drafting, and questionable contracts.

So between your two options, may I suggest another: controlled rage. It's not necessarily where everyone needs to be, but it's where I am.
I'm all for intelligent rage.

That's just harder and harder to find lately.


Last edited by WhoIsJimBob: 01-15-2012 at 06:25 PM.
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01-15-2012, 03:02 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by slip View Post
I disagree with the bolded. I think it's pretty clear Ruff has lost this team, and I also think it's pretty clear Regier lacks the ability to diagnose his team's needs and then go out and fill those holes. It's been 5 years since our depth down the middle got destroyed, and Darcy hasn't done **** about it.

And that's the point: we're talking about half a decade of mediocre hockey, with Regier and Ruff at the helm. When the kids have been in the car for several years with no end of the long, winding road in sight, do they not have to right to ask "are we there yet?"

Let's stop pretending as if the crappy product on the ice is not the culmination of many years of front office stupidity that includes uninspired coaching, shoddy drafting, and questionable contracts.

So between your two options, may I suggest another: controlled rage. It's not necessarily where everyone needs to be, but it's where I am.
That opinion is incredibly flawed. Regeir is the guy that made the trades and drafted our top 5 centers coming out of the lockout (Drury, Briere, Connolly, Roy and Goose). He is not the one that made the decisions that led to Drury/Briere walking out the door.

Every draft since the summer of 2007 when the captains left.

2008 --> Myers, Ennis, Adam
2009 --> Kassian, McNabb, Foligno
2010 --> Pysyk, JGL, Sundher
2011 --> Armia, Catenacci


Since that summer he has drafted 3 potential NHL centers in Adam, Sundher and Catenacci. But it takes time for them to get to the NHL. Its not a quickie solution. Roy was drafted in 2001 and didn't become an NHL regular until his call up early in the 05-06 season. He didn't make the team out of camp until 2006. The quickie solution would be a UFA splash or a blockbuster trade. But those things didn't exist as realistic options with the previous ownership because they wouldn't spend big money or eat contracts to facilitate a trade. If they did then Drury/Briere never would have left in the first place. Posters seem to keep forgetting that fact.


This past summer was his first when with an unfettered ability to acquire players. So he went out and got Regehr, Ehrhoff and Leino. Thats ONE summer with the current ownership.


Last edited by joshjull: 01-15-2012 at 03:08 PM.
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Old
01-15-2012, 03:23 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
Sooner or later, money will get results.
Money alone wins nothing. You need smart people making the decisions with that money in order to win anything.

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01-15-2012, 03:25 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
That opinion is incredibly flawed. Regeir is the guy that made the trades and drafted our top 5 centers coming out of the lockout (Drury, Briere, Connolly, Roy and Goose). He is not the one that made the decisions that led to Drury/Briere walking out the door.

Every draft since the summer of 2007 when the captains left.

2008 --> Myers, Ennis, Adam
2009 --> Kassian, McNabb, Foligno
2010 --> Pysyk, JGL, Sundher
2011 --> Armia, Catenacci


Since that summer he has drafted 3 potential NHL centers in Adam, Sundher and Catenacci. But it takes time for them to get to the NHL. Its not a quickie solution. Roy was drafted in 2001 and didn't become an NHL regular until his call up early in the 05-06 season. He didn't make the team out of camp until 2006. The quickie solution would be a UFA splash or a blockbuster trade. But those things didn't exist as realistic options with the previous ownership because they wouldn't spend big money or eat contracts to facilitate a trade. If they did then Drury/Briere never would have left in the first place. Posters seem to keep forgetting that fact.


This past summer was his first when with an unfettered ability to acquire players. So he went out and got Regehr, Ehrhoff and Leino. Thats ONE summer with the current ownership.
And this opinion is terribly flawed. Fact is Buffalo has been one of the top spending teams over the past 5 years, right at or near the cap each season. Golisano spent money, and Regier decided how to spend it. This year he threw tens of millions more at the problem, and we got worse. Money isn't the issue, personnel is.

Which brings me to your original point, that Regier has in fact dealt with the hole at the center position since the big two left. Drafting three potential centers over 5 years in order to deal with the problem is a weak response; failing to actually trade or sign via UFA centers to fill that void is an inexcusable response.

Regier has done a lot of smart things during his stint in Buffalo. But he's been just average since the lockout attempting to retain, sign, and draft key players. And it shows in today's on-ice product.

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01-15-2012, 03:48 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by slip View Post
And this opinion is terribly flawed. Fact is Buffalo has been one of the top spending teams over the past 5 years, right at or near the cap each season. Golisano spent money, and Regier decided how to spend it. This year he threw tens of millions more at the problem, and we got worse. Money isn't the issue, personnel is.

Which brings me to your original point, that Regier has in fact dealt with the hole at the center position since the big two left. Drafting three potential centers over 5 years in order to deal with the problem is a weak response; failing to actually trade or sign via UFA centers to fill that void is an inexcusable response.

Regier has done a lot of smart things during his stint in Buffalo. But he's been just average since the lockout attempting to retain, sign, and draft key players. And it shows in today's on-ice product.
Are you really going to try this hard to ignore facts just to stay mad at Regier? For starters we spent right up to the cap one season, 07-08 and that was in actual dollars as well. Every year after we were a few million shy. We also had a set budget that was based on actual salaries not cap hits. Spending to the cap in actual salaries is not the same as spending as much money as everyone else in actual salaries. Because it isn't and we didn't.

Also once the season started our budget was set in stone with Quinn/Golsano. So any trades Regier made in season had to be dollar for dollar equal (I'm talking salaries not cap hits). Thats why every deadline he had the headache of having to move players out in order to bring players in. Its also why when injuires hit we usually carried just enough players to ice 20 and not a player more. They would rarely call up players just to be depth or put anyone on LTIR to take advantge of that cap exemption. Because that meant spending actual moeny on salaries beyond what was budgeted for the season.


Do you even understand that none of Boyes, Regehr, Ehrhoff or Leino would have been acquired under the previous ownership. Or that the Myers extension wouldn't ahve happened like it did either. Boyes was adding salary in season without salary going out, Regehr was eating Kotalik's salary of 3mil, Ehrhoff was a massive frontloaded deal to lower the cap hit but still give him big bucks early and to a lesser extent that was done with Leino. Myers was another massive frontloaded deal.

Between front loaded contracts and eating NHL salaries in Europe and the AHL. We've spent 75-80mil in salaries for the current roster to be put together. Remind me again when we spent this much money in actual salaries over the cap to build a roster.

I'm stunned on a daily basis by the utter ignorance on this board over how much things have changed for better with this owner and the options he gives our GM now.


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Old
01-15-2012, 03:55 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
When are posters going to grasp that an owner willing to eat contracts is never in cap jail. Philly has proven this time and time again.
Deep pockets certainly help, but buyouts aren't a magic bullet. They still count against the cap. If we buyout Leino this summer, he'll be eating up anywhere from $2.4 to $1.4 million in cap space for the next decade.

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01-15-2012, 03:59 PM
  #159
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Deep pockets certainly help, but buyouts aren't a magic bullet. They still count against the cap. If we buyout Leino this summer, he'll be eating up anywhere from $2.4 to $1.4 million in cap space for the next decade.
Who said anything about buyouts?


See above.

We can make trades now that were never a possibility in the past (adding, then burying a bad contract from another team in order to get the player we want from them), we can sign UFAs with heavily frontloaded contracts to make their cap hit easier to handle, etc. None of these things were options in the past.

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01-15-2012, 04:07 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Are you really going to try this hard to ignore facts just to stay mad at Regier? For starters we spent right up to the cap one season, 07-08 and that was in actual dollars as well. Every year after we were a few million shy. We also had a set budget that was based on actual salaries not cap hits. Spending to the cap in actual salaries is not the same as spending as much money as everyone else in actual salaries. Because it isn't and we didn't.

Also once the season started our budget was set in stone with Quinn/Golsano. So any trades Regier made in season had to be dollar for dollar equal (I'm talking salaries not cap hits). Thats why every deadline he had the headache of having to move players out in order to bring players in. Its also why when injuires hit we usually carried just enough players to ice 20 and not a player more. They would rarely call up players just to be depth or put anyone on LTIR to take advantge of that cap exemption. Because that meant spending actual moeny on salaries beyond what was budgeted for the season.


Do you even understand that none of Boyes, Regehr, Ehrhoff or Leino would have been acquired under the previous ownership. Or that the Myers extension doesn;t ahppen either. Boyes was adding salry without salary going out, Regehr was eating Kotalik's salary of 3mil, Ehrhoff was amassive frontloading of his deal to lower the cap hit but still give him big bucks early and to a lesser extent that was done with Leino. Myers was another massive frontloaded deal.

I'm stunned on a daily basis by the utter ignorance on this board over how much things have changed for better with this owner and the options he gives our GM now. We spent almost 80il in salaries for the current roster to be put together (that includes Morrison and Kotalik). Remind me again when we spent this much money in actual salaries over the cap to build a roster.

Keep on believing that under Golisano/Quinn Regeir had the ability to just go sign a top UFA center or trade for one. It will allow your hate to stay fresh if misguided.
Stay mad at Regier?

In any case, just the facts:

cap dollars vs. real dollars: What about Vanek's contract?

in season trades: Dollar for dollar neutral? What about guys like Moore and Torres?

recent off season contracts: Just my point. Regier hands out a boatload of money, the product on-ice declines; Ehrhoff detracts from Sekera's game; Leino is a square peg trying to fit a round hole; Regehr is a coup, the product of excess money to burn; Myers gets signed one way or another, no matter who is boss. The only thing that doesn't happen? -- Stafford's dumb ass contract on one hand, Boyes the bust on the other.

center hole: Keep on believing that under Golisano/Quinn Regeir had the ability to just go sign a top UFA center or trade for one. It will allow your hate to stay fresh if misguided.

Nice straw man. Nobody said anything about a top UFA center. But a top 6 center and a checking line center with speed would go a long way toward filling out the roster.

Again, I don't hate Regier. He's just some GM for a team I root for.

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01-15-2012, 04:10 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Who said anything about buyouts?


See above.

We can make trades now that were never a possibility in the past (adding, then burying a bad contract from another team in order to get the player we want from them), we can sign UFAs with heavily frontloaded contracts to make their cap hit easier to handle, etc. None of these things were options in the past.
Right - all those things certainly help - and the ability to dump players in rochester is a huge resource that we've never had before. But there's still a cap, and at some point bad contracts (either ones we've signed or ones we've traded for) will hurt our ability to improve elsewhere.

Other than the player(s) having to pass through waivers, is there any limit on how many (or how much $$$) we can send to Rochester? Even if it's not in the letter of the CBA, if we abused it I have a hunch the rest of the league and especially the NHLPA would notice and do their best to limit that option.

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01-15-2012, 06:31 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by jlr View Post
Right - all those things certainly help - and the ability to dump players in rochester is a huge resource that we've never had before. But there's still a cap, and at some point bad contracts (either ones we've signed or ones we've traded for) will hurt our ability to improve elsewhere.

Other than the player(s) having to pass through waivers, is there any limit on how many (or how much $$$) we can send to Rochester? Even if it's not in the letter of the CBA, if we abused it I have a hunch the rest of the league and especially the NHLPA would notice and do their best to limit that option.
In the current CBA, there is no limit beyond the AHL limit of veteran players on the roster. But, the loophole there is that you could loan a guy out to another AHL team or the European route.

My only issue with the burying contracts thing is that some people think that Pegula will let Regier bury $10M+ in a year off the NHL roster.

I doubt he'll have the stomach to do that year in and year out consistently. Just like I don't expect this year's spending spree to be an every year thing.

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01-15-2012, 11:11 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by slip View Post
Stay mad at Regier?

In any case, just the facts:

cap dollars vs. real dollars: What about Vanek's contract?

in season trades: Dollar for dollar neutral? What about guys like Moore and Torres?

recent off season contracts: Just my point. Regier hands out a boatload of money, the product on-ice declines; Ehrhoff detracts from Sekera's game; Leino is a square peg trying to fit a round hole; Regehr is a coup, the product of excess money to burn; Myers gets signed one way or another, no matter who is boss. The only thing that doesn't happen? -- Stafford's dumb ass contract on one hand, Boyes the bust on the other.

center hole: Keep on believing that under Golisano/Quinn Regeir had the ability to just go sign a top UFA center or trade for one. It will allow your hate to stay fresh if misguided.

Nice straw man. Nobody said anything about a top UFA center. But a top 6 center and a checking line center with speed would go a long way toward filling out the roster.

Again, I don't hate Regier. He's just some GM for a team I root for.
Regier didn't negotiate Vanek's contract, Kevin Lowe did and the Sabres were stuck with the terms Vanek agreed to, albeit with Edmonton.

Meyers would be resigned no matter what, however the difference between Golisano and Pegula is the contract length and worth. Golisano would of signed him to a 2 or 3 year extension as cheap as possible and then they'd watch his value skyrocket and either be forced to trade him or would resign him again right up to when he would enter UFA.

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01-15-2012, 11:25 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by slip View Post
Stay mad at Regier?

In any case, just the facts:

cap dollars vs. real dollars: What about Vanek's contract?

in season trades: Dollar for dollar neutral? What about guys like Moore and Torres?

recent off season contracts: Just my point. Regier hands out a boatload of money, the product on-ice declines; Ehrhoff detracts from Sekera's game; Leino is a square peg trying to fit a round hole; Regehr is a coup, the product of excess money to burn; Myers gets signed one way or another, no matter who is boss. The only thing that doesn't happen? -- Stafford's dumb ass contract on one hand, Boyes the bust on the other.

center hole: Keep on believing that under Golisano/Quinn Regeir had the ability to just go sign a top UFA center or trade for one. It will allow your hate to stay fresh if misguided.

Nice straw man. Nobody said anything about a top UFA center. But a top 6 center and a checking line center with speed would go a long way toward filling out the roster.

Again, I don't hate Regier. He's just some GM for a team I root for.
They moved out Kotalik to trade for Moore and they moved out MacArthur and Paetsch to trade for Torres.

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01-16-2012, 08:51 AM
  #165
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They moved out Kotalik to trade for Moore and they moved out MacArthur and Paetsch to trade for Torres.
Very true. Then again, when the in-season financial shackles come off, we end up with...Brad Boyes?

Not to belabor the point, but I stand by my primary contention that Regier was given adequate resources to be competitive under Golisano, but misappropriated those resources, especially as it relates to bolstering the center position.

That's not to say he sucks, should be fired, is an idiot, etc.; it's just to say that Regier has been an average GM since the lockout ended.

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