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Carter/Richards production vs. new guys

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Old
01-16-2012, 01:32 AM
  #76
Damaged Goods
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qwertysac View Post
Carter - 30gp -10g - 17pts = 0.33 gpg and 0.57 ppg
Richards - 37gp - 14g - 26pts = 0.38 gpg and 0.70 ppg
Total avg = 0.36 gpg and 0.64 ppg

Voracek - 43gp - 6g - 26pts = 0.14 gpg and 0.60 ppg
Simmonds - 43gp - 12g - 23pts = 0.28 gpg and 0.53 ppg
Couturier - 39gp - 9g - 16pts = 0.23 gpg and 0.41 ppg
Schenn - 15gp - 2g - 3pts = 0.13 gpg and 0.20 ppg
Total avg = 0.20 gpg and 0.36 ppg

Take it for what its worth.

Well, your points per game comparison is just as flawed as the methodology OP is being attacked for.

TOI
Carter: 483:28 ES, 9:55 PK, 105:34 PP
Richards: 507:20 ES, 83:41 PK, 140:28 PP
Total: 990:48 ES (74.5%), 93:36 PK (7%), 246:02 PP (18.5%)

Voracek: 527:18 ES, 28:17 PK, 148:59 PP
Simmonds: 532:02 ES, 3:06 PK, 142:05 PP
Couturier: 367:12 ES, 105:41 PK, 14:05 PP
Schenn: 169:06 ES, 4:56 PK, 14:57 PP
Total: 1,595:38 ES (77.5%), 142:00 PK (7%), 320:06 PP (15.5%)

POINTS
Carter: 12 ESP, 0 SHP, 5 PPP
Richards: 22 ESP, 2 SHP, 2 PPP
Total: 34 ESP, 2 SHP, 7 PPP

Voracek: 26 ESP, 0 SHP, 0 PPP
Simmonds: 18 ESP, 0 SHP, 5 PPP
Couturier: 15 ESP, 1 SHP, 0 PPP
Schenn: 3 ESP, 0 SHP, 0 PPP
Total: 62 ESP, 1 SHP, 5 PPP

-The current Flyers are producing an even strength point for every 25:44 of even strength ice time. The ex-Flyers are producing an even strength point for every 29:08 of even strength ice time.

-The current Flyers are producing a power play point for every 64:12 of power play ice time. The ex-Flyers are producing a power play point for every 35:09 of power play ice time.

-The current Flyers are producing a power play or even strength point for every 28:36 of power play + even strength ice time. The ex-Flyers are producing a power play or even strength point for every 30:10 of power play + even strength ice time.

-The current Flyers are producing a point for every 30:31 of ice time. The ex-Flyers are producing a point for every 30:57 of ice time.

Now to make the offensive numbers really tango, perhaps we need replacement levels for per-minute scoring, possibly adjusted for depth chart position. But in lieu of that, the raw per-minute totals show that the Flyers return is just barely out-producing Carter and Richards on the offensive end on a per-minute basis. They have also played a lot more total minutes this year.

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01-16-2012, 08:21 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Guffaw View Post
No offense, but pretty much nothing. Carter is always hurt and always will be. Check that career ppg when it counts, after the all star break and in the playoffs. I don't have the stat, but I can tell you it's night and day vs. his first halfs. The guy disappeared every year when it counts so what's the point for a team like the Flyers that makes the playoffs every year.

PPG stats for two teenage rookies and two 22/23 yr olds that don't play on a top line and see little to no pp time vs. two 27 yr. olds in their prime that play first line pp and with star players.

Since you like ppg, Jake and Simmonds nearly equal the two clowns and would likely be higher if on first unit pp and playing with a Nash or Kopitar caliber players like they are.

Then you still have 5th and 8th overall pics that are 19 and 20 yrs. old. When have the Flyers picked that high? JVR and then going off memory Mike Ricci in 1991? Almost 20 years.

Holmgren turned a last placed team into a contender in 1-2 years. He made the deals. But he doesn't argue on internet forums so I guess you guys are right and he's wrong


the bold statments above tell me that you occasionally watch the Flyers (which is fine) or you do watch most games but suffer from some sort of attention deficit disorder.

Like most on here I think Flyers win Carter trade hands down but Richards trade is still up in the air. I honestly believe Schenn will be a 65+ pt guy in this league for many yrs and if thats the case its just a matter of time before I can completely agree and say Flyers win that trade too. Hopefully the 2nd rounder turns into something good which will just be the icing on the cake sort to speak. I guess I'm saying only time will tell but I think it will "tell" that Flyers win both these trades.

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01-16-2012, 08:42 AM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guffaw View Post
No offense, but pretty much nothing. Carter is always hurt and always will be. Check that career ppg when it counts, after the all star break and in the playoffs. I don't have the stat, but I can tell you it's night and day vs. his first halfs. The guy disappeared every year when it counts so what's the point for a team like the Flyers that makes the playoffs every year.

PPG stats for two teenage rookies and two 22/23 yr olds that don't play on a top line and see little to no pp time vs. two 27 yr. olds in their prime that play first line pp and with star players.

Since you like ppg, Jake and Simmonds nearly equal the two clowns and would likely be higher if on first unit pp and playing with a Nash or Kopitar caliber players like they are.

Then you still have 5th and 8th overall pics that are 19 and 20 yrs. old. When have the Flyers picked that high? JVR and then going off memory Mike Ricci in 1991? Almost 20 years.

Holmgren turned a last placed team into a contender in 1-2 years. He made the deals. But he doesn't argue on internet forums so I guess you guys are right and he's wrong
You missed Joni Pitkanen 4th overall in 2002?
But I get what you are trying to say.

Personally I think this team does not really like to spend much time in developing a player so they rather trade for them to win now. And Homer definitely has the balls to pull the trigger when he can see the possible value of a trade package.

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01-16-2012, 09:33 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Guffaw View Post
I don't agree, but you actually could make an intelligent Richards argument as making the team better this year. I have a feeling that will hold less weight as Schenn and Simmonds mature and peak while Richards tails off. That's on ice only though. They wanted him out of here for more than his on ice production.
I often do make intelligent arguments, but have found (as you currently are discovering) that such intelligence is not always welcomed in this forum.



Anyway, I think there's no doubt that as Richards wanes the trade will look better and better. For now though they almost surely would be better offensively and defensively with him here. What the psychological effect - I don't know. For a guy who "won at every level", he sure spent a lot of time captaining rudderless teams while here.

As pertains to Carter well the case is closed.

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01-16-2012, 09:37 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Guffaw View Post
Here ya go big guy. Here's Jeff Carters playoff production for the Flyers over the past 3 seasons. Remember this is a team where playoff performance is all that matters. They make the cut every year.

10-11' 6GP 2pts 14th on the team in scoring

09-10' 12GP 7pts 10th on the team in scoring

08'-09' 6GP 1pt 14th on the team in scoring
Jeez

/CarterDebate

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01-16-2012, 09:42 AM
  #81
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"Leighton" would not be a dirty word in Philly if Jeff Carter had put the puck that was ON HIS STICK AT THE MOMENT THIS IMAGE WAS SNAPPED into the net.



Add it to this and you have "good riddance" personified:



I believe the Flyers lost that game when a couple minutes later the Pens tied it up on the power play after a Hooking call on, ummm, Jeff Carter.


Last edited by JXC: 01-16-2012 at 09:49 AM.
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01-16-2012, 10:15 AM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JXC View Post
"Leighton" would not be a dirty word in Philly if Jeff Carter had put the puck that was ON HIS STICK AT THE MOMENT THIS IMAGE WAS SNAPPED into the net.



Add it to this and you have "good riddance" personified:



I believe the Flyers lost that game when a couple minutes later the Pens tied it up on the power play after a Hooking call on, ummm, Jeff Carter.
And if our goalie made the save we would be raving about what a great save it was. But because it was Carter, it's always his fault.

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01-16-2012, 10:50 AM
  #83
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I feel bad for Carter on that game 6 thing. He tried his best, if you watch the replay Campbell get his stick on Carters just enough messing with his release.

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01-16-2012, 10:55 AM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JXC View Post
I often do make intelligent arguments, but have found (as you currently are discovering) that such intelligence is not always welcomed in this forum.



Anyway, I think there's no doubt that as Richards wanes the trade will look better and better. For now though they almost surely would be better offensively and defensively with him here. What the psychological effect - I don't know. For a guy who "won at every level", he sure spent a lot of time captaining rudderless teams while here.

As pertains to Carter well the case is closed.
Your "I like Jones/Stevens because everyone else dislikes him" argument wasn't really an intellectual, factual based argument there.

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01-16-2012, 11:10 AM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MsWoof View Post
And if our goalie made the save we would be raving about what a great save it was. But because it was Carter, it's always his fault.
We also would have still needed to win Game 7, largely because Leighton had crapped the bed so hard.

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01-16-2012, 12:12 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JXC View Post
I often do make intelligent arguments, but have found (as you currently are discovering) that such intelligence is not always welcomed in this forum.



Anyway, I think there's no doubt that as Richards wanes the trade will look better and better. For now though they almost surely would be better offensively and defensively with him here. What the psychological effect - I don't know. For a guy who "won at every level", he sure spent a lot of time captaining rudderless teams while here.

As pertains to Carter well the case is closed.

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01-16-2012, 12:23 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by MsWoof View Post
And if our goalie made the save we would be raving about what a great save it was. But because it was Carter, it's always his fault.
If he was the great player his Followers said he was, he'd have potted those. That's all.

Kind of reminiscent of the whole Bryz thing, though...

- Lacavlier beating Bryz from the circle, long side high = Bryz sucks

- Couturier beating Rinne from the circle, long side high = the next Stamkos


Last edited by JXC: 01-16-2012 at 12:34 PM.
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01-16-2012, 12:28 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Your "I like Jones/Stevens because everyone else dislikes him" argument wasn't really an intellectual, factual based argument there.
I've never really understood people's attraction to Conformism, but if it works for you, I guess you may as well go with it.

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01-19-2012, 07:08 AM
  #89
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Couts 5 game goal streak while Carter plays Xbox and the Kings fall from the playoff race! LOL!!!!!!!

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01-19-2012, 07:33 AM
  #90
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team offensive rank. Flyers 2nd, Columbus 27th, LA 30th. Aren't the teams getting the offensive stars in their prime supposed to get better now? LOL!

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01-19-2012, 07:40 AM
  #91
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I thought we got great value in the Carter deal, questionable value in the Richards deal, but overall I had no problems with the overall value received from the trades.

That said, if you're going to do this, at least try to be scientific about it! As others have said, compare 1:1 production, not 2:1. Also you can't just default to points, because whether you like it or not, there have been injuries, on both sides.

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01-19-2012, 07:59 AM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
I thought we got great value in the Carter deal, questionable value in the Richards deal, but overall I had no problems with the overall value received from the trades.

That said, if you're going to do this, at least try to be scientific about it! As others have said, compare 1:1 production, not 2:1. Also you can't just default to points, because whether you like it or not, there have been injuries, on both sides.
As I showed in post #76, the production this year is a decisive win for the Flyers so far. Voracek/Simmonds/Couturier/Schenn's offensive production per minute matches Carter/Richards, and that's 4 players vs 2 players. Obviously, for 2 forwards to be worth 4 forwards, the 2 forwards would have to significantly out-produce the 4 forwards on a per minute basis. When you consider age/contract it looks even better.

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01-19-2012, 08:16 AM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guffaw View Post
team offensive rank. Flyers 2nd, Columbus 27th, LA 30th. Aren't the teams getting the offensive stars in their prime supposed to get better now? LOL!
Yeah I remember when so many here asked, acidly: "But where WILL THE SCORING COME FROM!!!!!?????"

They were shaking and foam-flecked with rage!

It is interesting that the correct question was precisely the opposite.

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01-19-2012, 11:53 AM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guffaw View Post
team offensive rank. Flyers 2nd, Columbus 27th, LA 30th. Aren't the teams getting the offensive stars in their prime supposed to get better now? LOL!
Question:

How many players are on LA and Columbus? Just Richards and Carter? Do they bear sole responsibility for success or failure? Are you aware that Richards has NOTHING to do with LA's failings?


Or are you just trolling? Judging by the sheer irrationality of your arguments, "trolling" seems likely.

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01-22-2012, 10:06 AM
  #95
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Fuel, meet fire....

Sam @ the Inquirer has a related article.

It's posted here for continued discussion and observation:

Quote:
NEWARK, N.J. - With the season just past the halfway pole, it's a good time to reflect on Bombshell Day.

That was last June 23, when Flyers general manager Paul Holmgren made the most stunning set of one-day moves in franchise history.

It was the day the Flyers dealt captain Mike Richards and sidekick Jeff Carter - star centers who were the faces of the franchise - and signed goalie Ilya Bryzgalov.

The Carter trade was in the wind. The Richards deal was, well, off the shock meter.

Said club chairman Ed Snider at the time: "We would trade our own mothers if it made us better."

Three and a half months into the season, the deals have made the Flyers better, based on the numbers produced by the players in the respective trades.

Richards was sent to Los Angeles for Wayne Simmonds, Brayden Schenn, and a No. 2 pick in the 2012 draft. Carter was dealt to Columbus for Jakub Voracek, along with the eighth overall pick in the 2011 draft - it turned out to be Sean Couturier - and a third-round selection that produced Nick Cousins, a feisty forward who entered the weekend with 23 goals and 52 points in 42 Ontario Hockey League games this season.

Here are the players' numbers heading into Saturday night:
http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/...html?viewAll=y

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01-22-2012, 10:44 AM
  #96
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Simmonds has just as many points as Richards

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01-22-2012, 12:13 PM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ8812 View Post
Simmonds has just as many points as Richards
Players on the 2nd ranked offense are going to put up a lot of points compared to players on the 30th ranked offense.

The fact remains: Richards has been having a great year. He's been extremely valuable to LA, and remains a better player than Simmonds.

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01-22-2012, 12:34 PM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JXC View Post
"Leighton" would not be a dirty word in Philly if Jeff Carter had put the puck that was ON HIS STICK AT THE MOMENT THIS IMAGE WAS SNAPPED into the net.



Add it to this and you have "good riddance" personified:



I believe the Flyers lost that game when a couple minutes later the Pens tied it up on the power play after a Hooking call on, ummm, Jeff Carter.
Wasn't that hooking call the same on where Staal I think it was, turned out to be holding Carter's stick?

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01-22-2012, 01:53 PM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Players on the 2nd ranked offense are going to put up a lot of points compared to players on the 30th ranked offense.

The fact remains: Richards has been having a great year. He's been extremely valuable to LA, and remains a better player than Simmonds.
still doesnt matter

Richards gets more icetime and has linemates. If his team is struggling to score, he's part of the the problem for sure

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01-22-2012, 01:56 PM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheesesteak View Post
I feel bad for Carter on that game 6 thing. He tried his best, if you watch the replay Campbell get his stick on Carters just enough messing with his release.
"If you watch the replay" what flyer fan hasn't watched that replay one hundred times? No excuse Carter has to bury that.

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