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What Should The Habs Do How Can They Get Better?

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Old
01-15-2012, 11:41 AM
  #51
Aurel Joliat
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Build a team to face the Bruins

And that's what Elliot Friedman said last night during the Hot stove.

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01-15-2012, 12:00 PM
  #52
The Goalie Mask
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Originally Posted by shutehinside View Post
If Montrea wants to go back to their days of yore than it must start with Molson deciding he wants to build a winning franchise over appeasing the Francophone fans. Quite simply, he can't have it both ways. The team on the ice is a direct reflection of its ownership and this is true in Montreal. If Molson is serious about building a perennial championship he can not be side tracked by the linguistics of its staff. It's hard enough building a winner as it is, to add handcuffs makes it an impossible task.

The fact of the matter is that all the best teams in the NHL are and have been built by anglophone GMs. This is where a team is built and the identity is formed. Barring a miracle or successive 1st overall picks, the GM is the man in any organization. For an organization such as the Habs, an original 6 team with the winningest history in the NHL the tradition was built on winning, not being French. In a time when teams had the rights to players who were born within 100 klm of the city it was much easier to build a team of French players. Imagine the same rules today. The Habs would have have Giroux, Briere, Stastney, st. Louis, etc. without having to break a sweat. Today's game and rules don't allow this kind of distribution of wealth any more and the days of getting our pick of the litter of Quebec born players.

What we need at GM is a person who knows the game, knows the players and. Ost importantly, has experience building a winner. Yes these people are few a far apart and harder yet to convince to come to your team. But someone of this yolk is imparitive to the building of a new franchise and new image. When Bob took the team over there was a collective sigh of relief in the city. Finally, we had an experienced and respected hockey person to come here and bring us back to glory. After tweaking and retooling for a couple of years and seeing the team needed to be blown up and start again, he did just that. Building a team that fit the mold of a "New NHL" he went about his business and build a small, skilled fast team that was to be the model of the new look league. Several years later and the league reverting back to its clutch and grab ways and the Canadiens are completely unable to compete against larger, more physical competition. Alas, they are in need of another rebuild. For this new edition of the Habs the experience is needed to build a winner because we've been flopping around like fish out of water for decades and the time has come to right the ship. Handing an inexperienced GM the reins is not an option as it was when Rejean Houle was handed to keys to the Kingdom. Geoff Molson needs to make a clear and decisive Deion as to who will build the future of the franchise and language can't be a determinant for a GM.

The next step in what the Habs need to do to become relevant again is a new coach. Same as the prerequisite as the GM but this time, the French can come into the picture. There are many very capable French speaking coaches out there. Much more the coach is a motivator and can win if they have the right pieces eveif they're not the best coach in the league. That being saidw, I'd still prefer taking the best candidate available regardless of language but if a compromise needs to be struck, this is where it should be.

Once you have those two people in place, it should be a matter of time before the team turns around and a new winning attitude permeates the franchise and the Habs can be viewed as a contender each and every year. I won't talk about adding individual players because we're too far gone to worry about individual pieces. We need a complete overhaul and that can only be decided by ownership and upper management. At the end of the day, this team needs to be blown up and start again by building on the young core we have. Outside of Price, PK, Patches and Pax, I'd say no one is safe and in most cases, most everyone should be trade bait to a rebuild.

Its time to start over again.
Good post!

To build a successful top tier team starts with leadership and vision at the top!

Right now and last few years we have been struggling to stay in the middle of the pack because management has been disillussional how to build a top tier team. They have been doing patch work trades,over estimating player's potential and have been reactionary instead of proactive with their efforts.

With the current player assets we can retool and do well starting next year. But the right trades, drafting and vision has to be implemented starting now.

Unfortunately, Molson needs to stop letting Gauthier make decisions or hand hold the decision until a better GM becomes available.or Hire a few temporary top consultants to help with the vision & execution until a GM becomes available(Bowman, McGuire etc)

It's not rocket science what we need!

In terms of players;

-Identify what core young players we will build around(Subban, Price, Patches)
-Identify what prospects we want to keep
-Get a top big center star to build around(through draft or trade)
-Get top shut down defensiveman
-Identify which vets to keep to guide the core
-Make sure the vets we keep or get are good at mentoring,good role models & have stanley cup experience(even if their older)
-trade expandable player assets to improve roster based on new visions now
-Trade for top draft picks for this year & top prospects now
-For talent build around young russians complemented by french and north american players
- going forward, make Montreal the primary go to place for russians and french players

Management can't be scared to make aggresive smart moves!

in terms of vision;

Build a team tough to score against(by complimenting Price with proper shut down defensivemen that clear the net) with a big star centers that can control the center of the ice....if you get the right centers, they will make any winger better!...wingers can be changed centers should be part of the core.

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01-15-2012, 02:11 PM
  #53
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The Quebec born players do not want to play in Montreal...they are all intimidated by the media, fans and expectations...it's sad but true...most will not admit it publically, but when talking amongst themselves they admit this....and some will go public with it ( I think Giroux recently said this )

The Habs really need to identify better players at the drafting table...thick skin, leadership type of kids...

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01-15-2012, 02:25 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurel Joliat View Post
Build a team to face the Bruins

And that's what Elliot Friedman said last night during the Hot stove.
Problem with that is no one else has a 7 foot giant who simultaneously plays defence and a 2nd goalie for 25 mins a game, 30 mins in the playoffs. Chara's impact on the Bruins' success is as underrated as the impact their toughness has on their success is overrated.

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01-15-2012, 02:36 PM
  #55
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Sorry, I'm getting fed up with people who think building a winner means flipping the game board over and scattering all the pieces. 'Blowing up' the team, selling off everyone but three or four young guys and starting over, is not a recipe for winning. It's throwing a tantrum.

The first and most important lesson is to get over the idea that a flurry of trades improves a team. Yes, sometimes you HAVE to proactively trade a number of players, but only when you have a roster of expiring contracts or aging veterans, or in the case of Philly where there were unhappy cliques amongst the players.

What the Habs need is a firm direction, not a garage sale. Two or three transactions, one at a time, between now and next year, plus some cap space for a UFA, and we're en route towards a very different team in 2012/13. But we also keep what works. Some think we should trade Pleks because his value is high? Then why not trade Cole, whose value is higher? Point is, their values are high because they make our team much better. Don't fall for the illusion that sending away effective players automatically means we'll get back even more effective players. That's not strategy, that's a blind crapshoot. A bunch of new names sounds exciting and fresh, but it won't make us a winner. It's a blind alley. Sure, if we get a great offer for Pleks, DD, Cole, whoever, I won't complain. But that only happens when trades happen from mutual need, when our team gets courted as much as we're courting them. But if everyone sees us out there 'blowing it up', we may as well send PG out in a short skirt on Boul. St-Laurent and charge GM's $25 for each blow.

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01-15-2012, 02:37 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Talent Analyst View Post
First I would see wich player is available right now or could be soon. I'll start showing interest and then you negociate and see what you can do.

When you really want a player you can trade for him. See Kessel and Phaneuf for Leafs. Burke really wanted them and didn't fail at this. Sure in case of Kessel he paid a lot, but he got what he needed. He's a top player in the league and he's 5th in scoring. Now they build around him.

We will have to overpay, this is mostly certain. But having that player would worth overpay for sure.
Okay, in terms of finding a superstar forward are you talking about one that's established or a prospect. If he's established and actually playing well, I don't see how that guy is going to be available to begin with.

As for overpaying, I don't see how that makes sense either. Why give up more than what the player is worth? Yes, we've seen Burke go out and get Kessel and it was absolutely the wrong thing for him to do. Fortunately for Burke, Kessel has finally started playing well but Burke was on a club going nowhere. I don't see how giving up two first rounders makes sense. As for Phaneuf, does his one good season outweigh the bad ones he's had along with what they gave up? I don't think so either.

And they STILL might not make the playoffs this year.

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01-15-2012, 02:40 PM
  #57
Lshap
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurel Joliat View Post
Build a team to face the Bruins

And that's what Elliot Friedman said last night during the Hot stove.
So why didn't we build a team last year to face the Blackhawks? Stop seeing only what's in front of our face. The Bruins are the team-de-jour, but their moment will pass, just like every other team. Thomas is 38 years old. Chara is 35. As they go - and they will - so does the team.

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01-15-2012, 02:41 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Habit11 View Post
Problem with that is no one else has a 7 foot giant who simultaneously plays defence and a 2nd goalie for 25 mins a game, 30 mins in the playoffs. Chara's impact on the Bruins' success is as underrated as the impact their toughness has on their success is overrated.
I mention in another thread,

Next years line up in Montreal should be

4th line of

Thornton/Konopka/Asham

and that 4 line would put up alot more points, than what we got goin on right now!




7/8th d man Matt Carkner

also add dman Tim Gleason


nobody pushin Habs around ...

With

Moen
Thornton
Asham
Konopka
Carkner
Gleason



Then upfront add Tuomo Ruutu,trade for Radulov


Then let's rock.


Last edited by Habaneros: 01-15-2012 at 02:52 PM.
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01-15-2012, 02:48 PM
  #59
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And on the subject of the Bruins, guess what -- we already have a team to face them. For all their famous big-and-tough offense, we have the exact same amount of goals over our five games this season: 9-9. That means we've held them to about 1.8 goals per game. As far as our own flaccid scoring, we can't blame Thomas and Chara, because we can't seem to score on anyone.

Take a pill. Boston hasn't invented some new template for the game of hockey. They managed to win a Cup, like so many teams before and after. They just haven't shut up about it.

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01-15-2012, 02:57 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habaneros View Post
I mention in another thread,

Next years line up in Montreal should be

4th line of

Thornton/Konopka/Asham

and that 4 line would put up alot more points, than what we got goin on right now!




7/8th d man Matt Carkner

also add dman Tim Gleason


nobody pushin Habs around ...

With

Moen
Thornton
Asham
Konopka
Carkner
Gleason



Then upfront add Tuomo Ruutu,trade for Radulov


Then let's rock.
My point is that Chara alone has way more impact on a game vs. their toughness. Add to that, they have 3 lines who can score and centermen who are excellent on faceoffs. They don't punch their way to being top in GF and top in GA in the league, they have scoring depth, and the best defensive defenceman in the game. They have players who are actually talented. Pull Chara and Bergeron, their best two all around players out of that lineup, and the team won't compete at the level it does (they'd still be good), no matter how tough the rest of the team is. I hate them, but can admit that they are way more than a team of tough guys.

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01-15-2012, 03:09 PM
  #61
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
Sorry, I'm getting fed up with people who think building a winner means flipping the game board over and scattering all the pieces. 'Blowing up' the team, selling off everyone but three or four young guys and starting over, is not a recipe for winning. It's throwing a tantrum.
If anything, it's supporters of the way we're currently constructed who throw a tantrum when it's suggested that the club is not close to being a contender.

Remove the emotion, strip away your love for the Habs for a second. Look at the roster and pretend that it belongs to Carolina. If foks could actually do this, they would see clear as day that we aren nowhere close to being a contending team.

Yes, the board needs to be turned over. Yes, radical changes are needed. We don't have any elite players. We have no elite level prospects and we haven't had a superstar in forever. Those are just the cold hard facts.

The club needs to be rebuilt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
The first and most important lesson is to get over the idea that a flurry of trades improves a team. Yes, sometimes you HAVE to proactively trade a number of players, but only when you have a roster of expiring contracts or aging veterans, or in the case of Philly where there were unhappy cliques amongst the players.

What the Habs need is a firm direction, not a garage sale. Two or three transactions, one at a time, between now and next year, plus some cap space for a UFA, and we're en route towards a very different team in 2012/13. But we also keep what works. Some think we should trade Pleks because his value is high? Then why not trade Cole, whose value is higher? Point is, their values are high because they make our team much better. Don't fall for the illusion that sending away effective players automatically means we'll get back even more effective players. That's not strategy, that's a blind crapshoot. A bunch of new names sounds exciting and fresh, but it won't make us a winner. It's a blind alley. Sure, if we get a great offer for Pleks, DD, Cole, whoever, I won't complain. But that only happens when trades happen from mutual need, when our team gets courted as much as we're courting them. But if everyone sees us out there 'blowing it up', we may as well send PG out in a short skirt on Boul. St-Laurent and charge GM's $25 for each blow.
Rebuilding is not a blind alley. It's been done before and it's worked.

High picks on average = better players. That's a fact. Top five players produce significantly better on average than anywhere else in the draft. We don't get those players because we never rebuild. That's why we haven't had a top ten scorer since 1986 and it's why we haven't had a bonafide franchise scorer since Guy Lafleur. Hell, you'd have to go all they way back to the days of Henri Richard and Jean Beliveau for the last time we had a legit franchise centerman.

Until we're able to admit that we're mediocre... nothing is going to change. We're really good at spotting the holes in Toronto and being able to see that they should've rebuilt a long time ago. But we can't see it for ourselves. And I guarantee you that if you were looking at our roster with no idea that you believed that it belonged to Montreal, a whole bunch of more people on this site would agree with me on this.

Top 10 scorers current:

1 Henrik Sedin
2 Steven Stamkos
3 Daniel Sedin

4 Claude Giroux
5 Phil Kessel
6 Jason Spezza

7 Joffrey Lupul (top 10)
8 Marian Hossa
9 Evgeni Malkin
10 Pavel Datsyuk

The top 3 scorers were all top 5 picks. If Crosby were playing it would be the top 4. And Malkin has the highest point per game. The 11th leading scorer btw, is Johnathan Toews, also a top five pick.

Lupul was a top ten
Hossa was a 12th
Giroux was 1st round
Datsyuk was a late pick

70% of the current top 10 scorers were drafted top 10 and Crosby is hurt.
80% drafted in a spot where you'd have to miss the playoffs
90% were first rounders

The draft is linear. It is not a "blind alley". Having multiple top picks is a huge advantage when trying to get superstars. Without superstars you probably won't win cups. We never get top five picks and we never have superstars and that's why we're in the state that we're in.


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 01-15-2012 at 03:33 PM.
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Old
01-16-2012, 12:19 AM
  #62
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Let's make it simple. Here's a list of wingers in our system who have or are likely to see at least some time with the habs over the year:

NameHeightWeight
Pacioretty 6'2196
Bourque 6'2211
Cole 6'2205
Kostitsyn 6'0214
Moen 6'2215
White 6'0193
Darche6'1 215
Leblanc 6'0178
Palushaj 5'11187
Blunden6'4218
Gionta 5'7173

Our centers?

NameHeightWeight
Plekanec 5'11198
Desharnais 5'7177
Eller6'2198
Gomez 5'11198
Nokelainen6'1202
Enqgvist6'4199

We have two guys under 5'11.

I took the opportunity to list the guys I feel SHOULD be in our top 9 forwards by bolding them. In that group, again, only gionta and DD are undersized. The wingers, which don't include moen(who I feel should be on 4th line not because of talent, but for a better suited role) are nearly all big somewhat physical guys. Yes, none are physical beasts but each out of the 4 bolded top 9 wingers with size has a mean streak to them.

We're so caught up in the 'smurfs' fallacy. Could we use a true shutdown center with size and a bigger top 6 Center? Absolutely.

I mean, I've openly stated several times I'd love Pahlsson to come here and pair up with white and moen for a 4th line shutdown line to take pressure off our offensive players like Plekanec.

As for the big top 6 center, there's not much out there come UFA time. I'd imagine, assuming we rid ourselves of Gomez(which I find unlikely), there's always a big low option like Stoll who can play point on PP, has a good shot and is a good two-way versatile center/winger more suited for a 2nd/3rd line role and is 6'1 213.

These are all 'depth' or luxuries. The current line up has size, speed and enough physical strength from the wings. We're not smurfs, not up front anyway.

Our D-core on the otherhand is pretty damn weak:

NameHeightWeight
Subban6'0211
Emelin6'2233
Gorges6'1200
Diaz5'11194
Weber5'11193
Kaberle6'1214
Markov6'0207

I didn't bother including Gill and Campoli as I don't think they'll stay with us next year and even if they did, they are 6'0 or above. The D-core is kind of soft. Emelin is beastly, we all know that. Subban and Gorges lay the body every now and then. The rest, while they 'battle' aren't really intimidating.

UFA options? Tim Gleason, Beauchemin, B. Stuart, etc..

My releastic line-up without giving up assets?

Pacioretty-Plekanec-Gionta/Bourque
Cole-Stoll-DD (DD and Stoll can alternate Center and Wing)
Kostitsyn-Eller-Bourque/Gionta
Moen-Pahlsson-White (shutdown line to take match up assignments off Plekanec)
Blunden/Darche

Markov/Kaberle-Gorges
Subban-Gleason
Emelin-Diaz
Weber
Gill(if he wants to be 7th-8th d-man) or other fill in physical D like a Henry or whatever.

Price
Budaj

I think this is a strong line-up with 3 lines that can make you pay.

If you're trying to create a line-up to beat the bruins toughness we'll lose. We need to have our own identity and I think this makes us a complete team with good depth.

With the way the habs suck, we should be drafting low and may acquire a top talent to compliment this group in 1-2 years.

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01-16-2012, 07:55 AM
  #63
Lshap
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The draft is linear. It is not a "blind alley". Having multiple top picks is a huge advantage when trying to get superstars. Without superstars you probably won't win cups. We never get top five picks and we never have superstars and that's why we're in the state that we're in.
I like a lot of your points. I'd love to get a series of top picks and watch 'em turn the team into a powerhouse. But I think the only way to do that - as you said - is to give away everyone good on the Habs to get a potential star. If our measuring stick is to become "Great", we'd have to jettison a whole lot of "Very good" in order to get it. That means the 'very good' Pacioretty, Cole, Desharnais, Eller, even Subban and Gorges, become the price to pay to get two or three potential future stars. Because if you believe in blowing up the team, it has to be a true blowout, with the acknowledgment that no team gives its first-round pick for anything less than a current star - which we don't have - or a couple of "Very goods", which is all we have. And if you believe we don't even have "Very good", then we either have to deal three "Pretty goods" to get a single top pick, or else we can't even play this "Blow-up for picks" game.

Maybe I'm exaggerating a bit. I'm not sure. I had a very, very rough night. But with the few brain cells left functioning, I'm not comfortable with the above scenario.

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01-16-2012, 08:57 AM
  #64
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Gauthier needs to talk to Gabriel Desjardins

http://www.hockeyprospectus.com/arti...articleid=1224

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01-16-2012, 10:45 AM
  #65
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1 - Offer take it or leave it contracts to AK and Moen. If they refuse, trade them at the deadline.
2 - Attempt to trade Gill, Campoi, Kaberle, Gomez, Nokeleinen and possibly Weber for picks and prospects.
3 - For next year, demote Gomez and Kaberle to the minors if they are not traded.
4 - Draft bigger and stronger players
5 - Sign 2 big strong forwards and one big strong shutdown D.

MaxPac-DD-Cole
Bourque-Plek-Big winger (Ruutu)
Moen-Eller-AK
White-Big center (Gaustad)-Blunden

Shut down D (Gleason) -Markov
Gorges-Subban
Diaz-Emelin
Weber

In the pipeline, they've got Leblanc, Kristo, Gallaguer, Tinordi, Beaulieu who are not too far away and, if the proposed deadline trades happen, some decent draft picks and prospects coming our way.

It's a rebuild but in the sense of getting rid of the old and upgrading quickly.

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01-16-2012, 11:33 AM
  #66
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Im the GM, and Molson has given me 2 years after this season. He also is willing to bury the Gomez contract in the AHL after this season if I cant get rid of it.

Goalie- We are tied to Price. I try for no more than $33M over 6 years,l but figure Price should be at least willing to sign for $36M. after season end get another back-up for under $2M. Really need to get some goalies in the system and will do that through the draft or trading mid-late picks and middling prospects. Its a crapshoot for the most part.

Defense- PK has 4 years of RFA left so will sign him to 1 or 2 years at $3M or so. Long term plan is to sign him to a deal that takes 3-5 UFA years. Emelin is UFA ' I think after next year. Hes solid positionally but prone to big gaffs. Despite this, we need his physical play and so I pay up to hold him long ter, $16.5M over 5 years. Diaz gets $6M over 3 years. Core is Markov, Gorges, PK and Emelin. Whether Markov comes back or not I want Kaberle gone, cant pay $4.25M for a weak defensively PP specialist. Depending on whether Markov gets back and whether I can get rid of Kabere, Im looking for either a big top 6 defensively okay hitting d-man or a top 4 two-way d-man with size and who plays physically. Trading Gill and Campoli at deadline as well.

Forwards- Like to keep Moen, Blunden and White. If I can go up in toughness on Noki I will, as long as hes decent on face-offs. Darche does what he is asked, not a bad guy to have, but open minded on getting tougher there as well. By the way, by toughness I mean guys who hit and fight for the puck in dirty places, fighting ability not a condition, but wouldnt hurt. AK I like, but we either have a contract before deadline or hes being traded. Offer around $4M. It seems like right now having 3 offensive lines is how we need to go. Obviously Im trying to trade Gomez. I will re-evaluate our center position next year after seeing whether Eller starts to show he is top 6, if not, then the hunt begins.

Hopefully will have a few extra picks for this years draft, realistcally maybe 3rds, 4ths, unless AK is moved for a pick.

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01-16-2012, 12:18 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
If anything, it's supporters of the way we're currently constructed who throw a tantrum when it's suggested that the club is not close to being a contender.

Remove the emotion, strip away your love for the Habs for a second. Look at the roster and pretend that it belongs to Carolina. If foks could actually do this, they would see clear as day that we aren nowhere close to being a contending team.

Yes, the board needs to be turned over. Yes, radical changes are needed. We don't have any elite players. We have no elite level prospects and we haven't had a superstar in forever. Those are just the cold hard facts.

...
The draft is linear. It is not a "blind alley". Having multiple top picks is a huge advantage when trying to get superstars. Without superstars you probably won't win cups. We never get top five picks and we never have superstars and that's why we're in the state that we're in.
You're still blinded from the obvious fact that it's not management's decision to not blow-up the team to get high draft picks. They are handcuffed. It is rather you who has to remove your ego, so you can finally understand that management has no other choice but keep trying to build through a dynamic of trading, signing and drafting the best they can with the situation they have, meaning that they cannot take the easy road that other teams could afford to take.

Everyone is aware of the value of top picks. You seem to think you're some kind of genius for figuring this out. It's a fact they DO want that talented forward, thye've made many attempts at getting one through FA. It took Boston a decade to replace Bourque, and they did it through FA, because at the time, they didn't draft high. Habs are trying to take the same road. We've seen more UFAs coming our way in the recent years, and we'll have to hope that the drama queens of the media haven't brought us back to where we were 10 years ago in regards to FA and we'll finally sign one. What you are asking for is irrealistic. What you do not understand is most people would definetly take this road (high picks), but realize that the Habs ownership is intent on making the playoffs every year because it is their bread and butter, and is not only the highest responsability they have towards lenders and investors (profit) but towards the league itself, as the Habs are one of the top 3 contributors in total revenues.

You still think people disagree with you on the premise of drafting high. It's not what most people disagree with. What they disagree with mostly is your unwillingness to look at the financial reality of the Habs and how drafting high, meaning, blowing up the team, is in total contradiction with their financial mandates and in turn, impossible to implement, unless they have no other choice (out of playoff contention), and even then, it's not likely to be that much of a blowout, because as businessmen, they are also thinking of the following season, and no matter if they haven't filled their mandate in the present season, they will still need to meet that mandate in the following season.

Some people have clued in to this fact when Gauthier mentioned opportunities, that they are shackled by this, that they have to go by those opportunities and strike when they come. That sounds a lot like someone who is handcuffed from taking another more easier road to accomplish what they are aiming for.

You lack the pragmatism required to understand the situation they are in, but instead of realizing that, you spout the same old drivel as usual, still thinking people "don't get it" and are "blinded" by their love for the Habs. The most blinded here is you, and it is caused by the love you have for your own narrow opinion.

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01-16-2012, 12:21 PM
  #68
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So why didn't we build a team last year to face the Blackhawks? Stop seeing only what's in front of our face. The Bruins are the team-de-jour, but their moment will pass, just like every other team. Thomas is 38 years old. Chara is 35. As they go - and they will - so does the team.
You're not getting it. We face them multiple times a year. We have to build a team that challenges them. It's not about copying the Stanley Cup champions, it's about beating the teams ahead of you. There's really no choice - we have to get past Boston and Philly. Both aren't a walk in the park.

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01-16-2012, 12:29 PM
  #69
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You're not getting it. We face them multiple times a year. We have to build a team that challenges them. It's not about copying the Stanley Cup champions, it's about beating the teams ahead of you. There's really no choice - we have to get past Boston and Philly. Both aren't a walk in the park.
You realize we always upset those 1st seeded bruins teams with smaller guys right?

People overestimate the need for an identity. The reality is, you can have big strong physical players or you can have skilled players. It doesn't really matter which as long as you build an indentity and play to your strengths.

Montreal isn't and never has been the bruins style of game. We won 24 cups based on having skill, not toughness. It is our identity. Do we need some bigger players to balance the line-up? Absolutely can understand that but building a boston team in a montreal style will never work. It's unproductive. Detroit isn't tough but they can give Boston a run for their money. Vancouver can as well and they dive and all that just as much as we do, we're very similar except they have higher talent. Do Toews, Kane and Hossa fight? Not really. They win anyway. We can say yada yada, we gotta face them X amount of times per year. Do we all forget our dominance vs them? Even in our dark years the habs in recent memory were what, 12 or more straight wins vs Boston? Why are we worried now?

Build a team to your strength's and get the most out of it. That's all it is.

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01-16-2012, 01:27 PM
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You realize we always upset those 1st seeded bruins teams with smaller guys right?

People overestimate the need for an identity. The reality is, you can have big strong physical players or you can have skilled players. It doesn't really matter which as long as you build an indentity and play to your strengths.

Montreal isn't and never has been the bruins style of game. We won 24 cups based on having skill, not toughness. It is our identity. Do we need some bigger players to balance the line-up? Absolutely can understand that but building a boston team in a montreal style will never work. It's unproductive. Detroit isn't tough but they can give Boston a run for their money. Vancouver can as well and they dive and all that just as much as we do, we're very similar except they have higher talent. Do Toews, Kane and Hossa fight? Not really. They win anyway. We can say yada yada, we gotta face them X amount of times per year. Do we all forget our dominance vs them? Even in our dark years the habs in recent memory were what, 12 or more straight wins vs Boston? Why are we worried now?

Build a team to your strength's and get the most out of it. That's all it is.
While I agree with your premise, there are a few holes. First, we don't have the management group to rival the Red Wings. We're far from that. Top players with skill aren't going to come to Montreal if they don't believe the management group here can win. And this season, management has been embarrassing. We also don't have the exclusive rights to players like we did in the past.

With those two major differences, we can't rely solely on skill. Our skills alone won't match up to Boston or Philly. While we may have upset the Bruins before, they've never been this good. And we never won a Cup when we upset them did we?

There has to be a compromise between size and skill. Smaller Bruins players have so much confidence because they know they can do whatever they want. We need to get there in my opinion.

What I'd do? I'd give Anaheim a Plekanec and Subban for Getzlaf. And I'd draft Girgorenko with our pick and trade Desharnais if we can get a good return, or I'd trade Gionta and shift Desharnais to the wing. A top 3 of Getzlaf, Gigorenko and Eller is what you call a contending team down the middle. We can deal with the defense afterwards.

We can have size AND skill and that would challenge for the Cup.


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01-16-2012, 01:44 PM
  #71
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While I agree with your premise, there are a few holes. First, we don't have the management group to rival the Red Wings. We're far from that. Top players with skill aren't going to come to Montreal if they don't believe the management group here can win. And this season, management has been embarrassing. We also don't have the exclusive rights to players like we did in the past.

With those two major differences, we can't rely solely on skill. Our skills alone won't match up to Boston or Philly. While we may have upset the Bruins before, they've never been this good. And we never won a Cup when we upset them did we?

There has to be a compromise between size and skill. Smaller Bruins players have so much confidence because they know they can do whatever they want. We need to get there in my opinion.
Since you seem impressed by the Bruins, ask yourself this: Why didn't the Bruins build their team to face the hot teams of the day five years ago when they sucked? The Sabres and Senators were fast and were built on talent, and were in the same division. New Jersey was flying high with the trap and Detroit was the benchmark for the league with its puck-handling. Why didn't Boston mirror their roster after any of these teams? Answer: because you pursue your own vision and not that of the current rival. The Habs need a vision, not a counter-move.

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01-16-2012, 02:01 PM
  #72
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While I agree with your premise, there are a few holes. First, we don't have the management group to rival the Red Wings. We're far from that. Top players with skill aren't going to come to Montreal if they don't believe the management group here can win. And this season, management has been embarrassing. We also don't have the exclusive rights to players like we did in the past.

With those two major differences, we can't rely solely on skill. Our skills alone won't match up to Boston or Philly. While we may have upset the Bruins before, they've never been this good. And we never won a Cup when we upset them did we?

There has to be a compromise between size and skill. Smaller Bruins players have so much confidence because they know they can do whatever they want. We need to get there in my opinion.

What I'd do? I'd give Anaheim a Plekanec and Subban for Getzlaf. And I'd draft Girgorenko with our pick and trade Desharnais if we can get a good return, or I'd trade Gionta and shift Desharnais to the wing. A top 3 of Getzlaf, Gigorenko and Eller is what you call a contending team down the middle. We can deal with the defense afterwards.

We can have size AND skill and that would challenge for the Cup.
There's no real certainty we can get Grig and there's no promise he'll reach his full potential.

We also have to consider that this is all nice and simple but suddenly our back end is terrible. It's already unbalanced, it becomes brutal afterwards.

Keep in mind getzlaf is UFA in a year, with the plan you have in motion, to chase another team we may suck again, and Getzlaf may not re-sign.

There's more factors than you're considering. If you wanna know how I feel we should model a team to be more complete read my retool suggestion a posts up.

I don't disagree with the notion we can't compete with boston physically, but we have our own game and trying to chase them around gets us nowhere. Improve our team and get the most of our players. The rest will take care of itself.

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01-16-2012, 02:01 PM
  #73
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Since you seem impressed by the Bruins, ask yourself this: Why didn't the Bruins build their team to face the hot teams of the day five years ago when they sucked? The Sabres and Senators were fast and were built on talent, and were in the same division. New Jersey was flying high with the trap and Detroit was the benchmark for the league with its puck-handling. Why didn't Boston mirror their roster after any of these teams? Answer: because you pursue your own vision and not that of the current rival. The Habs need a vision, not a counter-move.
I agree. All you need to do is look around the Bell Center at teams past to see the style Montreal should employ. Chiarelli came into Boston with a mandate to build a Bruins teem that echoed teams past. Size and skill with Grit. Montreal needs to look at the style employed by the Pollock era Habs. Speed and Skill with enough size to not get pushed around. Guys like Patches and Cole match that style to a tee. Bourque also looks to fit that mold too. Even guys like Gionta (or Gallagher) fit that kind of style. Its about building a winner, but its also about building a team that matches the hockey fans like to see. Its about having a vision and building towards that.

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01-16-2012, 03:47 PM
  #74
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I like a lot of your points. I'd love to get a series of top picks and watch 'em turn the team into a powerhouse. But I think the only way to do that - as you said - is to give away everyone good on the Habs to get a potential star. If our measuring stick is to become "Great", we'd have to jettison a whole lot of "Very good" in order to get it. That means the 'very good' Pacioretty, Cole, Desharnais, Eller, even Subban and Gorges, become the price to pay to get two or three potential future stars. Because if you believe in blowing up the team, it has to be a true blowout, with the acknowledgment that no team gives its first-round pick for anything less than a current star - which we don't have - or a couple of "Very goods", which is all we have. And if you believe we don't even have "Very good", then we either have to deal three "Pretty goods" to get a single top pick, or else we can't even play this "Blow-up for picks" game.

Maybe I'm exaggerating a bit. I'm not sure. I had a very, very rough night. But with the few brain cells left functioning, I'm not comfortable with the above scenario.
We don't have to give up Max, Subban and Price. And we don't need to finish dead last five years in a row. Heck, if we keep those guys we won't be able to finish last.

But we can deal vets for picks. We can change the way we're building our team and stop building with band-aid fixes. Top five picks are not impossible to get. Getting established superstars is. We need to be smarter and more proactive about how we build our club.

Bottom line though is that top picks do produce better players exponentially better than lower picks do. And we haven't had nearly enough of those picks over the years. That's the main reason why we never have superstars.
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You're still blinded from the obvious fact that it's not management's decision to not blow-up the team to get high draft picks. They are handcuffed.
No they aren't. This is up to management. And by management I include ownership in that group. It is a matter of will not capability.
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It is rather you who has to remove your ego, so you can finally understand that management has no other choice but keep trying to build through a dynamic of trading, signing and drafting the best they can with the situation they have, meaning that they cannot take the easy road that other teams could afford to take..
You have argued this forever but you have failed to provide a good explanation as to why this is. We absolutely CAN do this. More than any other team except maybe Toronto we can do this.


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Everyone is aware of the value of top picks. You seem to think you're some kind of genius for figuring this out. It's a fact they DO want that talented forward, thye've made many attempts at getting one through FA. It took Boston a decade to replace Bourque, and they did it through FA, because at the time, they didn't draft high. Habs are trying to take the same road. We've seen more UFAs coming our way in the recent years, and we'll have to hope that the drama queens of the media haven't brought us back to where we were 10 years ago in regards to FA and we'll finally sign one. What you are asking for is irrealistic.
First, no not everyone understands the value of top picks. People argue against it all the time. That's why they point to guys like Datsyuk and say "SEE Detroit can do it!" He is the exception not the rule. Does it take a genious to figure it out? I don't think so. But then again, I have no idea why so many folks continue to argue against it. The poster I was responding to above called it a blind alley... it's not.

As for your other arguments here... you aren't making any sense at all. Just as you haven't for a long time.

You've cited Boston and Anaheim in the other thread where you had your meltdown... again. And you point to them as a repeatable path? I've responded to you there and I'll repeat it again here.

Anaheim got incredibly lucky x3. Niedermayer leaves the Devils to go play with his brother. Unless you've got him on your roster he's not coming over to you. Secondly, they signed a guy who looked like he was well over the hill and he suddenly reverted to becoming a 50 goal scorer again. Then Pronger (another Norris winner) inexplicably leaves Edmonton and would only go to certain teams... we weren't on that list.

How in the world is this repeatable? Should we go sign Brian Crosby so Sid comes over to join us? Let's go sign Keith Tkachuk and coax him out of retirement. Maybe he'll go back to being a 50 goal man for us. As for Pronger... well, I guess there was nothing we could do there anyway because he didn't want anything to do with this gongshow.

And yeah, let's look at the Bruins. Zedeno Chara becomes the biggest UFA in post cap era. They then rip-off Florida for Nathan Horton. And to top it off, they get a 34 year old goalie who hasn't even been in the NHL most of his career suddenly become Dominik Hasek.

Dude, NOBODY is against signing a young Zedeno Chara. Just like NOBODY is against ripping off another club in a trade. But you can't plan for this stuff. If it happens, great... go run with it. But you can't count on this stuff.

Moreover, we've shown ZERO ability to land franchise type players when they go UFA. We've trade doing things the way you're suggesting for years... it's gotten us nowhere. I don't see why you think this is suddenly going to change.

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What you do not understand is most people would definetly take this road (high picks), but realize that the Habs ownership is intent on making the playoffs every year because it is their bread and butter, and is not only the highest responsability they have towards lenders and investors (profit) but towards the league itself, as the Habs are one of the top 3 contributors in total revenues.
Yeah right. It's a big conspiracy. The NHL won't let us do it.

As for Habs ownership trying to make the playoffs at the expense of long term success, that's what I've been saying for a long time dude.

But unlike you, I don't pretend to know where ownership's head is at. I don't know if Molson is another Ballard or if he actually cares about winning.

What I DO know is that your argument that we 'can't' do this, is BS.

- We have the revenues to do it.
- We have the fanbase and corporate sponsorship
- We have TV deals that didn't exist before
- The Canadian Dollar is higher that it's been in forever.

And even if we do avoid rebuilding... we STILL might miss the playoffs anyway. We're almost always fighting for a playoff spot in the 2nd half of the year. Yes, we've gotten in but we could've just as easily missed a lot of those years.

We absolutely CAN and SHOULD rebuild this club.



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You still think people disagree with you on the premise of drafting high. It's not what most people disagree with.
People disagree with me for all kinds of reasons. I respond on an individual basis.

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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
What they disagree with mostly is your unwillingness to look at the financial reality of the Habs and how drafting high, meaning, blowing up the team, is in total contradiction with their financial mandates and in turn, impossible to implement, unless they have no other choice (out of playoff contention), and even then, it's not likely to be that much of a blowout, because as businessmen, they are also thinking of the following season, and no matter if they haven't filled their mandate in the present season, they will still need to meet that mandate in the following season.
Actually, most people don't bring up the finances. They know it would be a losing arguement. If small market Edmonton can do it, so can we.

Most people feel that rebuilding is somehow dishonourable. Others feel that top picks are a crapshoot.... the common link between most of the folks who disagree with me though is that they're the ones who always argue that we're doing great. They defend most of the moves we make and are always spinning things to look better than they are.

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Some people have clued in to this fact when Gauthier mentioned opportunities, that they are shackled by this, that they have to go by those opportunities and strike when they come. That sounds a lot like someone who is handcuffed from taking another more easier road to accomplish what they are aiming for.
It sounds like more BS from a man who doesn't seem to have a clue how to run a hockey club. Maybe it is ownership pulling the strings, maybe it's not. Either way it's irrelevant because this is a message board where we talk about what we SHOULD be doing and why we should be doing it.

I have no idea where ownership's head is at and neither do you.
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Grrarr... I"m Charlie Sheen and I'm going to take potshots at you...
I talk hockey on here okay. I'm not going to waste my time with these kinds of personal attacks. And please, don't send me anymore PM hatemails. Save that stuff for your therapist. There's no reason for you to bark this kind of stuff at me.

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Old
01-16-2012, 06:13 PM
  #75
Lafleurs Guy
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Since you seem impressed by the Bruins, ask yourself this: Why didn't the Bruins build their team to face the hot teams of the day five years ago when they sucked? The Sabres and Senators were fast and were built on talent, and were in the same division. New Jersey was flying high with the trap and Detroit was the benchmark for the league with its puck-handling. Why didn't Boston mirror their roster after any of these teams? Answer: because you pursue your own vision and not that of the current rival. The Habs need a vision, not a counter-move.
I definitely agree with this. You are absolutely correct.

I want to see us add elite players though. Without superstars on your club it's very hard to win. Those superstars can be of many different styles or position, but without at least one superstar (and most cup winning teams have multiple HOF superstars) you're going to have a tough time winning a championship.

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