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01-15-2012, 03:08 AM
  #126
ECWHSWI
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Originally Posted by Maliki2 View Post
Come on Natey, you don't actually believe that? Between your love of Breezy and now Kabs, I really wonder about you sometimes.
Guess you forgot the times, really not long ago, where us having too many PP meant losing momentum, giving goals and losing games...

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01-15-2012, 03:15 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
You say this, but be honest, how many non-Habs related games do you watch per week? Sure, admittedly I've assumed that you're someone who possibly watches one (maybe two) non-Habs related game a week if he's lucky, so let me know if I've made a faulty assumption. It just sounds like your expectations/beliefs in Kaberle's abilities are stuck in '05/06 - which would be natural if you really haven't seen that much of him between then and now, and just notice that the points keep coming in.
Huge faulty assumption...

But you know what they saw when you assume. You make an ____ out of u and me.

I watched 4 games today alone... with the way the schedule worked... Detroit-Chicago; Peg-Jersey, Mtl-ott; La-cgy. It was a lazy saturday.

But overall I probably watch 4 or 5 games a week..... so yeah, I see a lot of hockey.

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And to answer your question, "50 points defenseman" is a label used either in hindsight referring to seasons where that was actually achieved, or with regard to a player who realistically could be expected to meet that mark without extraordinary circumstances. I simply say that Kaberle has been lucky to get the ice time that he has in the past couple of years (enabling him to get those points), and submit that he is the former not the latter. Having to compete with Kubina, Finger, and Van Ryn, etc for ice time (Schenn having a unique role among Maple Leaf defenders as a "true shutdown defender" - thus not competition for icetime) led to lots of opportunities to end up connected to scoring plays via 2nd assists, but he has looked pretty ineffective, to me, for a while.

Now that he plays in front of this fan base on the regular, I expect visions of immediately post-lockout Kaberle to disappear naturally, but understand that it may take some longer to admit/realize it than others; one way or the other.
thats a hell of an assumption, considering his last season split between Toronto/Boston was not on teams littered with these defencemen.

The Leafs had both Phaneuf and Beauchemin (traded a week or two before Kaberle) among their group... along with Schenn, and Gunnarson. The Bruins were of course the Stanley Cup champs.

And yet he still put up 47 pts. Yes not 50, but really, its 3 pts, its not really a huge deal.

Heres another funny thing about that though... playing on a crappy team (which the leafs were last season) and logging all those supposedly undeserved minutes; he was all of -2... amazing considering how supposedly "bad at defence" and how much his play has declined, isn't it?

You're making a lot of justifications as to why your view is correct....

First he wasn't a 50 pt defenceman, anymore, he was a guy on the decline... then we looked up the stats and proved you wrong.

Then he was only getting it because he got undeserved minutes on a weak depth chart... but again it was a completely wrong assumption.

Look I get it, this guy was the face of the Leaf franchise for so long that we as habs fans are conditionned to hate him, but he really isn't as bad as all the people who **** on him, want to believe he is.

There is a reason that just 1 year ago, Peter Chiarelli (who is a pretty good GM) was willing to give up a 1st round pick, a top Prospect, and a 2nd rounder merely to rent the guy for 10 games + the playoffs.... and it wasn't because Kaberle sucks, and had declined as many here like to believe


Last edited by Beakermania*: 01-15-2012 at 03:23 AM.
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Old
01-15-2012, 05:00 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
Huge faulty assumption...

But you know what they saw when you assume. You make an ____ out of u and me.

I watched 4 games today alone... with the way the schedule worked... Detroit-Chicago; Peg-Jersey, Mtl-ott; La-cgy. It was a lazy saturday.

But overall I probably watch 4 or 5 games a week..... so yeah, I see a lot of hockey.
Well, that's a bit of hockey. Obviously not too many Toronto games in there, though, in recent years. Because if you had, what was talked about ad nauseum when things weren't working with him on the Bruins had been talked about for years. Also, I'm not concerned so much with how much hockey you watched yesterday. I'm more concerned with how much you've watched over the past 5 or 6 years, i.e. enough games/time to actually notice how various non-Habs players have changed over that period.


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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
thats a hell of an assumption, considering his last season split between Toronto/Boston was not on teams littered with these defencemen.

The Leafs had both Phaneuf and Beauchemin (traded a week or two before Kaberle) among their group... along with Schenn, and Gunnarson. The Bruins were of course the Stanley Cup champs.

And yet he still put up 47 pts. Yes not 50, but really, its 3 pts, its not really a huge deal.
Let's get this straight: the last time Kaberle was a 50 point defenseman, neither of those guys in bold was playing for the Maple Leafs. Hal Gill was, though, kind of amusingly.

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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
Heres another funny thing about that though... playing on a crappy team (which the leafs were last season) and logging all those supposedly undeserved minutes; he was all of -2... amazing considering how supposedly "bad at defence" and how much his play has declined, isn't it?
Logging "undeserved" minutes? I don't know why you chose to phrase it that way. All I said is that he was lucky to be on a team where he was good enough compared to everyone else to end up relied on to play big minutes. Now, looking at Toronto's record over the past 5 or 6 years, do they seem to do better the more they relied on Kaberle for minutes, or does it seem like the opposite? Toronto looks stronger defensively without him, Boston looks stronger defensively without him, and I expect we'll look back and see the pattern continue into Montreal.

You're free to disagree if you like, just don't put words in my mouth.

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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
You're making a lot of justifications as to why your view is correct....
I'm supporting my opinion, which started off quite simply, but was jumped on by a few hounds who suppose that I hate the guy because he's a former Leaf. I hate the guy because he makes our team worse, as I expected from the beginning.

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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
First he wasn't a 50 pt defenceman, anymore, he was a guy on the decline... then we looked up the stats and proved you wrong.

Then he was only getting it because he got undeserved minutes on a weak depth chart... but again it was a completely wrong assumption.
First bolded point is true. Second bolded point is something YOU made up.

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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
Look I get it, this guy was the face of the Leaf franchise for so long that we as habs fans are conditionned to hate him, but he really isn't as bad as all the people who **** on him, want to believe he is.

There is a reason that just 1 year ago, Peter Chiarelli (who is a pretty good GM) was willing to give up a 1st round pick, a top Prospect, and a 2nd rounder merely to rent the guy for 10 games + the playoffs.... and it wasn't because Kaberle sucks, and had declined as many here like to believe
Who's making the illogical assumptions now? As for the rest, it wouldn't be the first time a GM overpaid to get something that he thought his team needed badly, and ended up being wrong about that...


Last edited by Ohashi_Jouzu: 01-15-2012 at 05:17 AM.
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Old
01-15-2012, 08:44 AM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Not only should he has less playing time during the game. But less playing during the shootout would be nice too....
He's 5/13 in the shootout overall. The way our shootout attempts have gone this season, his stats look world class (its actually not a bad percentage overall either). I wouldn't be surprised if the habs have the lowest shootout conversion percentage this year.

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Old
01-15-2012, 01:14 PM
  #130
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Scoring 49 and 47 pts clearly shows he's declined and is not a 50 pt dman anymore. I can't believe you are even arguing that he "hasn't scored 50 pts in 4 years"... .yeah it might be factually true... but its disingenous when we are talking one pt and 3 pts over 82 games.

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01-15-2012, 01:25 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
Scoring 49 and 47 pts clearly shows he's declined and is not a 50 pt dman anymore. I can't believe you are even arguing that he "hasn't scored 50 pts in 4 years"... .yeah it might be factually true... but its disingenous when we are talking one pt and 3 pts over 82 games.
I'll have to echo this.

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01-15-2012, 01:30 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
Our PP is better with him.
If its better, its only very slighty better but the guy struggles to do so many things its not even funny.. we were already soft, adding this guy is the cherry on the cake..

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01-15-2012, 02:38 PM
  #133
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I like the extra offensive power that Kaberle adds even if it's not much. My problem with him is that he adds another year and extra cash to this team's payroll. With Spacek, we would've gotten rid of an aging player. Instead, we'll have to wait another year to really make decent changes on D.

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01-15-2012, 03:56 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Woodson Hoggs View Post
I like the extra offensive power that Kaberle adds even if it's not much. My problem with him is that he adds another year and extra cash to this team's payroll. With Spacek, we would've gotten rid of an aging player. Instead, we'll have to wait another year to really make decent changes on D.
If we want him off the cap we just have to trade him. I'm sure there will demand at the deadline. Would be nice to have Markov back first though.

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01-15-2012, 04:24 PM
  #135
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Who could take Kabby off our hands ? For a couple of mid-round picks ?


Weber and Subban should had been playing together on that PP since long.

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01-15-2012, 04:49 PM
  #136
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What if PG knew he was tanking when he acquired Kaberle...

Love or hate you can't dismiss his stats. He would be one of the better offensive D mentors available out there, Markov being unavailable.

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01-15-2012, 04:53 PM
  #137
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there is a reason Toronto was trying to trade him for a year and a half, and Boston didn't resign him, and Carlina was looking to trade him since early November...


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01-15-2012, 05:04 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by jerrywally23 View Post
there is a reason Toronto was trying to trade him for a year and a half, and Boston didn't resign him, and Carlina was looking to trade him since early November...
Because they don't have a ton of young mobile D that need a mentor?

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01-15-2012, 05:05 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by lxzred View Post
What if PG knew he was tanking when he acquired Kaberle...

Love or hate you can't dismiss his stats. He would be one of the better offensive D mentors available out there, Markov being unavailable.
the LAST thing we want is for Diaz/Weber to "learn" how to play from Kaberle.

Not all offensive dmen are as inept and soft as Kaberle is in the defensive zone, if anything, Kaberle's influence in that regard (setting an example for our younger players) is a negative, not a positive.


let's stop with the searching for some sort of positive excuses to justify a poor decision.

Kaberle was brought in to help the pp, our pp hasn't improved... it is what it is.

the only "positive" is that he is putting up points, so hopefully other teams ignore that our coach, like his last 2 coaches (Maurice/Julien) plays him limited minutes despite his offensive abilities/production, and make us some kind of offer that doesn't involve taking back a similarly bad contract.


Last edited by Miller Time: 01-16-2012 at 02:44 PM.
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Old
01-15-2012, 05:07 PM
  #140
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The habs brought him in to fix the PP, plain and simple. The problem is that there is no trigger man for him. His best years in toronto were with mccabe's big shot. Our shooters are weber and subban and they have been awful in that role.

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01-15-2012, 05:14 PM
  #141
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I know he is supposed to be a liability defensively but maybe a pairing of Kaberle Subban could be good for this team after all he was not long ago a first pairing d

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01-15-2012, 05:14 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
the LAST thing we want is for Diaz/Weber to "learn" how to play from Kaberle.

Not all offensive dmen are as inept and soft as Kaberle is in the offensive zone, if anything,
Now just throwing things around in my head, I can follow a lot of the complaints on the trade but inept? That's quite a stretch, and explain to me how a D plays "hard" in the offensive zone without getting caught out of position.
If people think second assist resulting from a first pass is some how unimportant or a man who has consistently posted some of the best numbers in the league is "inept" in the offensive zone...I guess there is not much to discuss....

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01-15-2012, 05:16 PM
  #143
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I wonder if Kaberle had been a UFA end of year, and managed to fix the power play if they let him walk in the summer? I'm gonna guess yes because it's that line of thinking that has gotten this mgmt group here in the first place. This team has self inflicted spinal tap syndrome for power play dmen. Frustrating. Move Spacek in the summer and let Gill walk, keep the Wiz for less than the 38 year old geezers cost, and the power play isn't what it is, and the team is probably 10pts up in the standings. But hey why learn from your own history?

That being said, Kaberle has been fine in his role. His career ppg average is .57, and since his arrival is .60 in Montreal, actually up. Markov's career ppg average is .59. Never understood the distaste for him. He's an offensive dman, people shouldn't expect him to be like Gorges. It would be like expecting Gorges to score like... Kaberle.

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01-16-2012, 11:43 AM
  #144
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Am I reading correctly how much he played last night? 8 minutes and change? I didn't see the whole game - injured? I didn't read the game threads. The Habs are paying 4 + for 8 minutes now. He keeps getting more expensive.

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01-16-2012, 11:45 AM
  #145
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Kaberle has a great first period. Made things happen, carried the puck, set the tone in the offensive zone.

Then that was it.

I don't get it. He needs to play more. His defensive deficiencies are highly, highly overstated.

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01-16-2012, 11:51 AM
  #146
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He's not always a committed defender and soft but honestly is he really a worse defender than Gill or Weber at this point? He really hasn't been a liability in his own end, he's still a very intelligent player who does most of the small things right.

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01-16-2012, 11:52 AM
  #147
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Originally Posted by swimmer77 View Post
Am I reading correctly how much he played last night? 8 minutes and change? I didn't see the whole game - injured? I didn't read the game threads. The Habs are paying 4 + for 8 minutes now. He keeps getting more expensive.
Yeah you're right. Thing is I have no idea why. No idea at all. He seemed to be getting a regular shift early in the game. Basically didn't see him at all in the second....and here and there in the third. Thing of it is at least IMO is he played really well. The only times I even noticed him was making good plays and passes and getting pucks to the net creating chances. I really thought he deserved more time.

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01-16-2012, 11:52 AM
  #148
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He's not always a committed defender and soft but honestly is he really a worse defender than Gill or Weber at this point? He really hasn't been a liability in his own end, he's still a very intelligent player who does most of the small things right.
He's patient with the puck, rarely panics under pressure.

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01-16-2012, 12:41 PM
  #149
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He does suffer from Subban's missthenetitis, however. His and Cammy's. He seriously could have had a lot more points if his teammates hadn't been atrocious in term of shooting precision.

Now, I believe Subban is a huge piece of our defensive and has overall been playing great. However, his one-timers have sucked bad this year.

What happened to the shots that scored the Playoff Clinching Goal (against Chicago) or tied up the Bs in game 7?

If we got that Subban back, Kaberle would probably be a lot more comfy in the standings.

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01-16-2012, 12:43 PM
  #150
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Damn crime he's playing so little. Defensive liability rep is blown WAY out of proportion. You'd think we were talking about MAB here.

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