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What is a re-tool to you anyway? [In defense of the Goat]

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Old
01-16-2012, 04:12 PM
  #226
Iwishihadacup
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
sheldon souray
Not available when when we needed a markov replacement

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01-16-2012, 04:16 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by swimmer77 View Post
Souray: ridiculous contract (as in good) for what you get.

Wizniewski: Gauthier never even negotiated with him. Probably too high but Gauthier never even bothered.

Hamrlik: 3.0 mil for 2 years

Kaberle: 4.25 mil for 3 years

I'm not saying that Hamrlik would have fixed the PP entirely but it's very possible he would not have allowed it to sink to an all time low. And he would have helped in other areas too. Wiz and Souray would have fixed a few things.

Gauthier was ill prepared for Markov's injury and ended up chasing his tail.
You can't juste give 2 or 5 years contracts just in case of something that was not in sight at the moment it happened, gms don't have crystal balls, and you would probably the first to whine with a megaphone if gauthier was signing random guys out of nowhere or washed up dman just in case a recovering really well markov would feel a setback that isn't even close to happen because it cannot be predicted

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01-16-2012, 04:25 PM
  #228
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Buy out Gomez next year and suddenly the team doesn't look so tighten up anymore.

Markov was a bad deal because Gauthier relied on him, not because of the money, since it doesn't even count against the cap.

I love how everybody want to run this team into the ground, yet we have many solid and young players already

Pacioretty, Cole, Gionta, Kostitsyn, Plekanec, Bourque(4/6 of them have size) are all 20 goals scorer, we have a #1 goalie, only the defense need to have a signifiant retooling.

The problem here is that the team rely on Subban to be a #1 when ideally he would be limited to PP time on a third, maybe second pairing.

To be competitive, this is what I think the defense need to look like:

#1 D-man - Gorges
#3 D-man - Subban
#4 Emelin - Diaz or Weber

Right now we have like Gorges and Subban who are top 4, every other d-man are bottom pairing guys.... Gill, Kaberle, Diaz, Weber, Emelin... I don't really hate Kaberle but I just think it's lame we went and got him when Weber can do the same things at 1/4 the cost.

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01-16-2012, 04:26 PM
  #229
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What trades has he been good with. I can count 3

The wiz trade, I loved it (We let him walk anyway)

Halak trade, Didn't like it at first, but love Eller.

Moore Trade was pretty good (We let him walk anyway)Still thought a 2nd was a massive overpayment, but moore worked out.


Sergei Kostitsyn for nothing is clearly a loss

Cammalleri, Ramo, 5th for Bourque, 2nd, Holland is a loss to this point

Kaberle for Spacek considering contract length and kaberle's inability to play a regualr shift, this is a no brainer bad move, since the acquisition we've gone from bad to worse.

Lapierre for Festerling and a 5th, another clear loss

O'byrne for Bournival, a wash, but I think it favors the avs. Bournavil might never be a NHLer

Dags for Palushaj, a win for St Louis.


Am I missing anyone here, then all the poor decisions he made this year and he's been terribad. Firing coaches on game day, trading players during hockey games ect.
How about you look at the context of some of the trades, ex Moore was let go, but we he replaced him with Halpern, who was good.

Also Dags for Palushaj, who is that a loss for us? Dags had 4 points in 44 games, and we would have lost him to waivers had we not traded him and sent him down. And Palushaj is putting up better numbers in the AHL than Dags at the same age.

O'bryne for Bournival, who is that a loss, another guy that was sitting on the bench, pretty much useless, even with the Avs he is still a bottom pairing D-men a team that isn't good.

Kaberle for Spacek. Basically signed Kaberle for 4.25M for 2 years, how is he overpaid, 4.25M is only 6.75% of the cap, and that % goes down if the cap goes up next year. Kaberle can be a good 3rd pairing D-men that can provide extra offense, his D against great, but I have yet to see any big mistakes on D. Kaberle has 9 points in 16 games, only a -1, not bad for 4.25.

Not to say PG is a great GM but man those this guy get too much hate, people just don't like him, and sense want to dislike any of his moves. I kinda wanna see him replaced this summer for the simple reason that I just can't take all of the complaining.

Also, seeing how Markov should be back after the All-star game, say for the last 30-25 games, Markov shows that he is still a great top 15 NHL D-men, and proves that his knee is fine going into next season, would ppl still hate the resigning of Markov?

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01-16-2012, 04:29 PM
  #230
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Wait what, the bournival that just played in the juniors is already a wash?


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01-16-2012, 04:52 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by uiCk View Post
Wait what, the bournival that just played in the juniors is already a wash?

Yeah man, and we should have resigned Souray. We need a cone that gets our PP going but gets 100 more goals scored against too.

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01-16-2012, 05:47 PM
  #232
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So, 10 pages about Gauthier with a lot of them defending Gauthier.

Almost every post is filled with ideas, speculations, what ifs and other opinions about PG. Which is good because this is a message board and opinions are shared all the time.

However, there is only one bit of factual information regarding Gauthier's tenure here in Montreal. The team's success/failure on the ice regarding games won and lost.

So here we go with the facts.

2009-2010 The Canadiens had a regular season record of 39 wins, 33 losses and 10 OT losses for 88 points and an 8th place finish. The Canadiens won the first two rounds of the playoffs by beating the Capitals and the Penguins. They lost in the third round of the playoffs to the Flyers.

2010-2011 The Canadiens had a regular season record of 44 wins, 30 losses and 8 OT losses for 96 points and a 6th place finish (tied in points with the Sabres but we had more wins). The Habs were eliminated in the 1st round of the playoffs by the Bruins.

2011-2012 So far this season, the Habs are 17 wins, 20 losses and 8 OT losses for 42 points in 45 games. The Habs are sitting in 12th place and in danger of not making the playoffs.

FACTS

2009-2010 Eliminated in the 3rd round of the Playoffs
2010-2011 Eliminated in the 1st round of the Playoffs
2011-2012 Not in playoff contention.

All under Gauthier's rule. The Canadiens got/are getting farther from the goal of winning the Stanley Cup in each successive year of Pierre Gauthier's reign of mediocrity.

Time for some new ideas in Montreal.

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Old
01-16-2012, 05:56 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
So, 10 pages about Gauthier with a lot of them defending Gauthier.

Almost every post is filled with ideas, speculations, what ifs and other opinions about PG. Which is good because this is a message board and opinions are shared all the time.

However, there is only one bit of factual information regarding Gauthier's tenure here in Montreal. The team's success/failure on the ice regarding games won and lost.

So here we go with the facts.

2009-2010 The Canadiens had a regular season record of 39 wins, 33 losses and 10 OT losses for 88 points and an 8th place finish. The Canadiens won the first two rounds of the playoffs by beating the Capitals and the Penguins. They lost in the third round of the playoffs to the Flyers.

2010-2011 The Canadiens had a regular season record of 44 wins, 30 losses and 8 OT losses for 96 points and a 6th place finish (tied in points with the Sabres but we had more wins). The Habs were eliminated in the 1st round of the playoffs by the Bruins.

2011-2012 So far this season, the Habs are 17 wins, 20 losses and 8 OT losses for 42 points in 45 games. The Habs are sitting in 12th place and in danger of not making the playoffs.

FACTS

2009-2010 Eliminated in the 3rd round of the Playoffs
2010-2011 Eliminated in the 1st round of the Playoffs
2011-2012 Not in playoff contention.

All under Gauthier's rule. The Canadiens got/are getting farther from the goal of winning the Stanley Cup in each successive year of Pierre Gauthier's reign of mediocrity.

Time for some new ideas in Montreal.
Well said. We need someone who can think outside a tactical mindset and address real needs.

Gauthier is part of a lingering stench, time to fabreze the upper offices and give a new manager a 5 year window.

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01-16-2012, 06:03 PM
  #234
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thats one hell of an in depth analysys. aprouved by earl too, damn, i see no reason for this thread to continue

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01-16-2012, 06:08 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by uiCk View Post
thats one hell of an in depth analysys. aprouved by earl too, damn, i see no reason for this thread to continue

Its called reality without any suppositions or excuses.

I deleted the excuses because every team has them for whatever reason.

Results. Sometimes they suck, sometimes they dont. But they are what they are without bias as this is exactly what the Canadiens did for the last two and a half seasons.

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01-16-2012, 06:15 PM
  #236
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could of avoided all that "bandwith" (as u like to say) by just stating the obvious. habs didnt win a cup in 2.5 years, going on 3.
great insight.

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01-16-2012, 06:21 PM
  #237
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Wait what, the bournival that just played in the juniors is already a wash?

At this point yeah it's wash. You would call it something else? You realize O'byrne is already in the NHL. Could turn out a win, but as of now, Bournival is no sure thing.

WJHC oh noes.

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01-16-2012, 06:27 PM
  #238
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Originally Posted by uiCk View Post
could of avoided all that "bandwith" (as u like to say) by just stating the obvious. habs didnt win a cup in 2.5 years, going on 3.
great insight.
With a basic understanding of the post you'd know that the thrust of the argument is that the team is getting further away from the goal.

he tried to use the word "regress" yesterday but was hit head on by twits who can't grasp these concepts .

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01-16-2012, 06:36 PM
  #239
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You can't juste give 2 or 5 years contracts just in case of something that was not in sight at the moment it happened, gms don't have crystal balls, and you would probably the first to whine with a megaphone if gauthier was signing random guys out of nowhere or washed up dman just in case a recovering really well markov would feel a setback that isn't even close to happen because it cannot be predicted
Gauthier admitted having the knowledge it could take Markov up to 12 months which would have been December. No crystal ball was needed but a little common sense could have gone a long way. PG was reactive instead of proactive.

Be predicted? Seriously? There were plenty of HF doctors telling me that Markov's return could take up to 12 months. And this is Markov we're talking about - a guy who played how many games under Jacques Martin? Heck............JM barely knows who he is/was and it's expected Markov would come back without a hitch? Like there's never been a complication?

And posters keep throwing this "predictability" thing out there as if it could only possibly work one way. That he'd be back strong and healthy. Yeah, right.

I wasn't suggesting that all three of those guys be signed. But looking at what's worked in the past in terms of filling in for the indestructible Markov and the powerplay and some intangibles they would have been proactive choices instead of two softer than butter d-men. One of which is being paid 4.25 to play 8 minutes.

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01-16-2012, 06:39 PM
  #240
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That was a good post.

EDIT: The only major criticisms I have had of Gauthier was his firing of Martin (major time) and not re-signing Hamrlik (not so much major time).

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01-16-2012, 06:45 PM
  #241
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Gauthier admitted having the knowledge it could take Markov up to 12 months which would have been December. No crystal ball was needed but a little common sense could have gone a long way. PG was reactive instead of proactive.

Be predicted? Seriously? There were plenty of HF doctors telling me that Markov's return could take up to 12 months. And this is Markov we're talking about - a guy who played how many games under Jacques Martin? Heck............JM barely knows who he is/was and it's expected Markov would come back without a hitch? Like there's never been a complication?

And posters keep throwing this "predictability" thing out there as if it could only possibly work one way. That he'd be back strong and healthy. Yeah, right.

I wasn't suggesting that all three of those guys be signed. But looking at what's worked in the past in terms of filling in for the indestructible Markov and the powerplay and some intangibles they would have been proactive choices instead of two softer than butter d-men. One of which is being paid 4.25 to play 8 minutes.
In all fairness, they're 8 strong minutes. The pp has improved in theory. Someone told me the other day that the zone entry and holding the blue line was better, so that's a positive, even if it doesn't result in more goals

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01-16-2012, 06:46 PM
  #242
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could of avoided all that "bandwith" (as u like to say) by just stating the obvious. habs didnt win a cup in 2.5 years, going on 3.
great insight.
He sure shut the case with all these brilliantly illustrated FACTS !

It's hilarious to see some armchair GMs think our situation is so simple, convinced their surface analysis and half-baked theories are actually great hockey insight...



There were mistakes made by management but sadly rare are the few who can make the distinction between actual issues and solutions and the nonsense that is spewed and repeated around here.

Anywho, great OP but it was bound for failure since the same few people that have graced us with their enlightening certainties the last few days jumped right on it with all the in depth rational dialogue they bring.

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01-16-2012, 07:17 PM
  #243
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He sure shut the case with all these brilliantly illustrated FACTS !

It's hilarious to see some armchair GMs think our situation is so simple, convinced their surface analysis and half-baked theories are actually great hockey insight...



There were mistakes made by management but sadly rare are the few who can make the distinction between actual issues and solutions and the nonsense that is spewed and repeated around here.

Anywho, great OP but it was bound for failure since the same few people that have graced us with their enlightening certainties the last few days jumped right on it with all the in depth rational dialogue they bring.
On the internet, we can make all kinds of excuses and rationalize away any move, transaction, injury, hirings, firings and anything else that we would like depending upon OUR PERSONAL beliefs of what is right and what is wrong.

At the end of the day, since games are played on the ice and not on what ifs on the internet, we are faced with what is called reality. And the reality is that this team is not getting better. It is actually getting worse with Gauthier in a leadership position.

Amazing how reality works in hockey and in real life. For example, if you work at your job and your performance is declining each year, do you think that your boss wants to hear your litany of excuses? Or does he want to see performance?

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01-16-2012, 07:24 PM
  #244
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Habs need to look no further than Boston and Ottawa. only a retool is in order. where gauthier fails, is when he holds onto guys too long. i'm ok with the cammy trade but would've preferred a 'younger' bourque type player. if habs can't sign moen or andrei, weirdo needs to get young equivalents for them. we're fine moving forward along the blue line /nets but up front there is a gap between what's in junior and what's in the NHL (outside of Leblanc). if this staff finally gets the need to insulate our smaller centers with big wingers AND some size / grit on bottom lines, we'll be fine. we need to draft only forwards this june - many with size and jam.

why does ottawa dress carkner, konopka, smith and carkner every night? boston with mcquaid, thornton, etc...

these guys insulate the skill guys. i was happy what i saw from us last game. we didn't get pushed around and we battled.

i'd still like habs to trade for a tougher player who can play. maybe we can get one for campoli or weber

and i still think they need to find a big winger for bourque/pleks IF they decide to leave eller's line intact

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01-16-2012, 07:34 PM
  #245
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
On the internet, we can make all kinds of excuses and rationalize away any move, transaction, injury, hirings, firings and anything else that we would like depending upon OUR PERSONAL beliefs of what is right and what is wrong.

At the end of the day, since games are played on the ice and not on what ifs on the internet, we are faced with what is called reality. And the reality is that this team is not getting better. It is actually getting worse with Gauthier in a leadership position.

Amazing how reality works in hockey and in real life. For example, if you work at your job and your performance is declining each year, do you think that your boss wants to hear your litany of excuses? Or does he want to see performance?

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01-16-2012, 07:35 PM
  #246
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
On the internet, we can make all kinds of excuses and rationalize away any move, transaction, injury, hirings, firings and anything else that we would like depending upon OUR PERSONAL beliefs of what is right and what is wrong.

At the end of the day, since games are played on the ice and not on what ifs on the internet, we are faced with what is called reality. And the reality is that this team is not getting better. It is actually getting worse with Gauthier in a leadership position.

Amazing how reality works in hockey and in real life. For example, if you work at your job and your performance is declining each year, do you think that your boss wants to hear your litany of excuses? Or does he want to see performance?
well, this tells me you've never been in a boss shoes in your life. Nothing is that simple.

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01-16-2012, 07:38 PM
  #247
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Its called reality without any suppositions or excuses.

I deleted the excuses because every team has them for whatever reason.

Results. Sometimes they suck, sometimes they dont. But they are what they are without bias as this is exactly what the Canadiens did for the last two and a half seasons.
I have to agree with SouthernHab. I don't really care how capable Gauthier may be or may not be. I think it's time for a FRESH management with a new outlook. Everyone from the Gainey-era needs to get removed and a completely new management + scouts + advisers need to come in.

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01-16-2012, 07:55 PM
  #248
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well, this tells me you've never been in a boss shoes in your life. Nothing is that simple.
No, what YOUR post tells me is that you have absolutely no idea what I do for a living or what I have done for a living in the past.

But I agree with the last sentence of your post. Nothing is that simple. But at the end of the day, a GM's success or failure is completely based upon his team's performance.......excuses be damned.

Excuses are for the weak and the incompetent.

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01-16-2012, 08:10 PM
  #249
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well, this tells me you've never been in a boss shoes in your life. Nothing is that simple.
Wait...what? He's right.

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01-16-2012, 08:17 PM
  #250
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No, what YOUR post tells me is that you have absolutely no idea what I do for a living or what I have done for a living in the past.

But I agree with the last sentence of your post. Nothing is that simple. But at the end of the day, a GM's success or failure is completely based upon his team's performance.......excuses be damned.

Excuses are for the weak and the incompetent.
And this franchise is becoming just that!

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