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What Should The Habs Do How Can They Get Better?

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Old
01-16-2012, 06:39 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
Sorry, I'm getting fed up with people who think building a winner means flipping the game board over and scattering all the pieces. 'Blowing up' the team, selling off everyone but three or four young guys and starting over, is not a recipe for winning. It's throwing a tantrum.

The first and most important lesson is to get over the idea that a flurry of trades improves a team. Yes, sometimes you HAVE to proactively trade a number of players, but only when you have a roster of expiring contracts or aging veterans, or in the case of Philly where there were unhappy cliques amongst the players.

What the Habs need is a firm direction, not a garage sale. Two or three transactions, one at a time, between now and next year, plus some cap space for a UFA, and we're en route towards a very different team in 2012/13. But we also keep what works. Some think we should trade Pleks because his value is high? Then why not trade Cole, whose value is higher? Point is, their values are high because they make our team much better. Don't fall for the illusion that sending away effective players automatically means we'll get back even more effective players. That's not strategy, that's a blind crapshoot. A bunch of new names sounds exciting and fresh, but it won't make us a winner. It's a blind alley. Sure, if we get a great offer for Pleks, DD, Cole, whoever, I won't complain. But that only happens when trades happen from mutual need, when our team gets courted as much as we're courting them. But if everyone sees us out there 'blowing it up', we may as well send PG out in a short skirt on Boul. St-Laurent and charge GM's $25 for each blow.
Great post. "Blowing it up" only makes sense if you are already a hopeless team, as rookies are basically useless without veterans around them.

There's always the obsession with new things, which is why everyone and their dog thinks we should be trading Pleks for Getzlaf or even a player with no obvious advantages over him like Statsny, two players who have probably had even longer stretches of poor play this year than Plekanec. You'd think after Cammalleri people would have learned that guys aren't going to magically perform the same way they do in other environments. Look at Cole, plenty of fans didn't even want to give him a chance because of what happened in Edmonton.

There's no magic formula, even when you have a bad season like the Habs are, you don't blame everything equally.

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01-16-2012, 06:50 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Great post. "Blowing it up" only makes sense if you are already a hopeless team, as rookies are basically useless without veterans around them.

There's always the obsession with new things, which is why everyone and their dog thinks we should be trading Pleks for Getzlaf or even a player with no obvious advantages over him like Statsny, two players who have probably had even longer stretches of poor play this year than Plekanec. You'd think after Cammalleri people would have learned that guys aren't going to magically perform the same way they do in other environments. Look at Cole, plenty of fans didn't even want to give him a chance because of what happened in Edmonton.

There's no magic formula, even when you have a bad season like the Habs are, you don't blame everything equally.
Right.

Why make changes when you can stay mediocre?

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01-16-2012, 06:56 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Right.

Why make changes when you can stay mediocre?
Blowing things up doesn't equal success though. There's plenty of stories of teams going in full rebuild mode that never got anywhere. Also, there are quite a few teams that made some minor changes over one offseason that got a lot better because of those changes.

Hell, the Caps went from worst to best just because of a coaching change.

I'm not saying I agree or disagree. I just don't think it's all as black and white as you seem to imply.

I hope some changes will be made. But there are quite a few good things going on with this team. Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water if you know what I mean.

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01-16-2012, 07:01 PM
  #79
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Blowing things up doesn't equal success though. There's plenty of stories of teams going in full rebuild mode that never got anywhere. Also, there are quite a few teams that made some minor changes over one offseason that got a lot better because of those changes.

Hell, the Caps went from worst to best just because of a coaching change.

I'm not saying I agree or disagree. I just don't think it's all as black and white as you seem to imply.

I hope some changes will be made. But there are quite a few good things going on with this team. Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water if you know what I mean.
The only really good things I see happening with this team is that we have a few good young players coming up. I'd like to see more of that wouldn't you? Wouldn't that be better than trading for Rene Bourque?

Oh, one other positive... after years of saying that size isn't important, it suddenly is again. At least we finally understand that.

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01-16-2012, 07:11 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
The only really good things I see happening with this team is that we have a few good young players coming up. I'd like to see more of that wouldn't you? Wouldn't that be better than trading for Rene Bourque?

Oh, one other positive... after years of saying that size isn't important, it suddenly is again. At least we finally understand that.
I don't want us drafting by size. No way. Not in the earlier rounds. We've tried that before and it yielded to zero result over a whole decade.

As for Rene Bourque... I was impressed by his game yesterday. But I'm not too fond of his contract. We did get a second round pick out of that trade, and we got rid of an established player, answering your "blow this team up" request very slightly.

Overall, not a bad deal. Bourque is, at least, fresh blood in this locker room. Plus, he has size and laid a huge hit yesterday, something we haven't seen much from our forwards this year outside of Kostitsyn.

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01-16-2012, 07:13 PM
  #81
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We haven't won the Cup since 93. We have tried a few things over the years but nothing work. But we haven't try this:

1) Tank to get a high pick
2) Trade veterans to get more draft picks. This will also help the tanking process
3) Invest into scouting to ensure we fully take advantages of our picks.

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01-16-2012, 07:30 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Gabe84 View Post
I don't want us drafting by size. No way. Not in the earlier rounds. We've tried that before and it yielded to zero result over a whole decade.

As for Rene Bourque... I was impressed by his game yesterday. But I'm not too fond of his contract. We did get a second round pick out of that trade, and we got rid of an established player, answering your "blow this team up" request very slightly.

Overall, not a bad deal. Bourque is, at least, fresh blood in this locker room. Plus, he has size and laid a huge hit yesterday, something we haven't seen much from our forwards this year outside of Kostitsyn.
I don't just want us to draft by size either. But it's at least good to see that we've decided not to completely ignore it anymore.

As for Bourque, as I've said... it's a lateral move. He might even make us a little better if he can find some consistency. Thing is though, we dealt away Cammy for another 30 year old. Doesn't really make sense when we're a bubble team outside a playoff spot to begin with.

I guess PG wants to make a run for the playoffs. Okay... just not sure what that does for us in the long run. Moreover, there's a good chance we miss them anyways so why continue to spin our wheels like this? At what point do we start to make major changes that will actually lead towards a cup? Bourque sure as heck is not a move in that direction.

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01-16-2012, 09:47 PM
  #83
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If there is no firesale, does this make sense? Let's say the salary doesn't go up. One of Markov and Gomer have to go to re-sign the core.

FORWARDS
Rene Bourque ($3.333m) / Tomas Plekanec ($5.000m) / Brian Gionta ($5.000m)
Max Pacioretty ($1.625m) / David Desharnais ($0.850m) / Erik Cole ($4.500m)
Travis Moen ($2.500m) / Lars Eller ($2.500m) / Andrei Kostitsyn ($4.500m)
Brandon Prust ($1.000m) / Petteri Nokelainen ($0.550m) / Ryan White ($0.625m)
Mike Blunden ($0.615m)

DEFENSEMEN
Josh Gorges ($3.900m) / P.K. Subban ($3.500m)
Alexei Emelin ($1.500m) / Raphael Diaz ($0.900m)
Jim Vandermeer ($1.000m) / Tomas Kaberle ($4.250m)
Andrei Markov ($5.750m) / Yannick Weber ($0.850m)

GOALTENDERS
Peter Budaj ($1.150m) / Carey Price ($5.500m)

SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $64,039,133; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $260,867

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01-16-2012, 10:07 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Habsolument90 View Post
If there is no firesale, does this make sense? Let's say the salary doesn't go up. One of Markov and Gomer have to go to re-sign the core.

FORWARDS
Rene Bourque ($3.333m) / Tomas Plekanec ($5.000m) / Brian Gionta ($5.000m)
Max Pacioretty ($1.625m) / David Desharnais ($0.850m) / Erik Cole ($4.500m)
Travis Moen ($2.500m) / Lars Eller ($2.500m) / Andrei Kostitsyn ($4.500m)
Brandon Prust ($1.000m) / Petteri Nokelainen ($0.550m) / Ryan White ($0.625m)
Mike Blunden ($0.615m)

DEFENSEMEN
Josh Gorges ($3.900m) / P.K. Subban ($3.500m)
Alexei Emelin ($1.500m) / Raphael Diaz ($0.900m)
Jim Vandermeer ($1.000m) / Tomas Kaberle ($4.250m)
Andrei Markov ($5.750m) / Yannick Weber ($0.850m)

GOALTENDERS
Peter Budaj ($1.150m) / Carey Price ($5.500m)

SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $64,039,133; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $260,867
Markov is just an untradable asset at this point. While he's injured, he's untradable. If he comes back on top of his game, we have to keep him (he is that good). If he comes back and doesn't play good, nobody will take him.

Gomez will be extremely hard to move as well, and the only way we'll get rid of him (beside buying him out or sending him to the AHL) is by including picks in a trade, kind of self-defeating when you want to rebuild.

As for Prust and Vandermeer, no thanks. I understand that some people are craving for tough guys, but those two are not the solution. What we need is grit in the top-6.

I can't see Moen making it past the trade deadline. It would be a mistake to hang on to him. Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan. I wish we could keep him. But we won't be competitive for the rest of the year and he's the kind of player that could fetch a very good return.

I've always been a big fan of Kostitsyn. He was the first draft pick of the Habs at the time I started watching and I've always felt "attached" to him in a way. I do hope we keep him. He has impressed me this season. He's really stepping his physical game up and he's a treat to watch. If we are to sign him to a 4.5m contract though, I hope it isn't for too long (3-4 years). I think he's the kind of player you want to keep though. Good for 20-25 goals, 40-50 points every year... Great depth. You can't underestimate that.

I also think that Leblanc will be ready for a roster spot next year. I can't see us retaining Noke. All he is is a stop gap because the other options didn't work out (namely Engqvist).

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01-16-2012, 10:14 PM
  #85
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Dude, Prust is on every GMs wishlist for that role. Solid PKer, keeps opponents honest, hits, fights when he needs to and chips in a little offense. You cannot ask more from a grinder.

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01-16-2012, 10:24 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I don't just want us to draft by size either. But it's at least good to see that we've decided not to completely ignore it anymore.

As for Bourque, as I've said... it's a lateral move. He might even make us a little better if he can find some consistency. Thing is though, we dealt away Cammy for a 2nd round pick. Doesn't really make sense when we're a bubble team outside a playoff spot to begin with.

I guess PG wants to make a run for the playoffs. Okay... just not sure what that does for us in the long run. Moreover, there's a good chance we miss them anyways so why continue to spin our wheels like this? At what point do we start to make major changes that will actually lead towards a cup? 2nd round pick sure as heck is not a move in that direction.
fixed.

2nd round pick.

fixed.

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01-16-2012, 10:52 PM
  #87
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This has been explained before, but for some reason it's hard to grasp. The Canadiens should not "start drafting" bigger players. They have been drafting bigger players , consistently, in the first round for the past thirty years. Take a look at who actually has been drafted; you'll see that with a couple of exceptions (Andrew Cassels in 87, for instance) they have always taken the bigger, stronger-seeming player over the smaller skilled guy. This began with Wickenheiser over Savard in 1980, a fatal mistake, and extends now to the dubious drafts of Fischer and then Tinordi. The trouble has been that size and strength tend not to be particularly useful outside of the development of skills, and, above all, speed. This is why Martin St. Louis wasn't even drafted, and you see how that worked out. There is no evidence of any kind that drafting bigger players makes for more winning teams. None.
The Habs problem is simple: they've gotten away from their own classic pattern of a.) paying special, but not exclusive , attention to the local talent and b.) having faith in the young talent they have to develop even if there are a few false starts and bad years and difficult moments. Just think how much stronger (and cheaper and younger) this team would be with Higgins and S. Kost and Riberio and even Latendresse and on and on. All had early difficulties-- as every talented young player from the beginning of time has, cf. Guy Lafleur -- all needed time to surmount them, but instead of giving them that time , management panicked and went for older players who were guaranteed to decline in skill level and get injured a lot, which is exactly what happened. The thing to do now is to draft for skill and speed and then understand that it just takes patience.

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01-16-2012, 11:32 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I definitely agree with this. You are absolutely correct.

I want to see us add elite players though. Without superstars on your club it's very hard to win. Those superstars can be of many different styles or position, but without at least one superstar (and most cup winning teams have multiple HOF superstars) you're going to have a tough time winning a championship.
You know, usually good players have a good chance of making it to the HOF IF they win the cup. Thats what I don't like about the HOF argument.

Of course we clearly lack star players, but if by some miracle we managed to beat Philly&Blackhawks (lol) and win the cup in 09-10 then I'm pretty sure Price, Markov and Subban would have qualified for HOF in the long run.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SherbrookeW
The thing to do now is to draft for skill and speed and then understand that it just takes patience.
I think this is what Timmins has been doing lately.

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01-17-2012, 12:20 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by SherbrookeW View Post
This has been explained before, but for some reason it's hard to grasp. The Canadiens should not "start drafting" bigger players. They have been drafting bigger players , consistently, in the first round for the past thirty years. Take a look at who actually has been drafted; you'll see that with a couple of exceptions (Andrew Cassels in 87, for instance) they have always taken the bigger, stronger-seeming player over the smaller skilled guy. This began with Wickenheiser over Savard in 1980, a fatal mistake, and extends now to the dubious drafts of Fischer and then Tinordi. The trouble has been that size and strength tend not to be particularly useful outside of the development of skills, and, above all, speed. This is why Martin St. Louis wasn't even drafted, and you see how that worked out. There is no evidence of any kind that drafting bigger players makes for more winning teams. None.
The Habs problem is simple: they've gotten away from their own classic pattern of a.) paying special, but not exclusive , attention to the local talent and b.) having faith in the young talent they have to develop even if there are a few false starts and bad years and difficult moments. Just think how much stronger (and cheaper and younger) this team would be with Higgins and S. Kost and Riberio and even Latendresse and on and on. All had early difficulties-- as every talented young player from the beginning of time has, cf. Guy Lafleur -- all needed time to surmount them, but instead of giving them that time , management panicked and went for older players who were guaranteed to decline in skill level and get injured a lot, which is exactly what happened. The thing to do now is to draft for skill and speed and then understand that it just takes patience.
There aren't many drafts with the talent available this year and to quote Timmins the perfect player is confined to usually the top three.This is where the Habs need to pick top five,players in that group are rarely the same,skill and the vision to use it are the things that will make a difference.Speed can be slowed as can size like Markov the vision is important to set the table for others to use their skills.

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01-17-2012, 12:38 AM
  #90
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It sucks that players from Quebec don't want to play here, but let's capitalise and focus our attention on the players who grew up Habs fans and who would relish an opportunity to play here.

The answer is simple.

Trade Gomez for Crosby and a bottle of anti-concussion pills.

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01-17-2012, 12:47 AM
  #91
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lafleurs guy, you learn to be concise, i don't know how many 1,000 word essays i can read before it all becomes a blur...

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01-17-2012, 05:48 AM
  #92
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You know, usually good players have a good chance of making it to the HOF IF they win the cup. Thats what I don't like about the HOF argument.
You've got it backwards, they won cups because they were HOF caliber players. It doesn't mean that every player who's HOF calibre will win a cup, but players with that kind of talent often win a cup sooner or later.

And those cup winning teams had guys on it who were going into the HOF with or without winning a cup. Yzerman, Niedermayer, Forsberg, Jagr... those are all HOF resumes no matter how many cups they win.

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01-17-2012, 06:13 AM
  #93
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First I would see wich player is available right now or could be soon. I'll start showing interest and then you negociate and see what you can do.

When you really want a player you can trade for him. See Kessel and Phaneuf for Leafs. Burke really wanted them and didn't fail at this. Sure in case of Kessel he paid a lot, but he got what he needed. He's a top player in the league and he's 5th in scoring. Now they build around him.

We will have to overpay, this is mostly certain. But having that player would worth overpay for sure.

Or maybe...just maybe they draft one with the good pick they will have this year and not have to give up a huge amount of assets to trade for one....

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01-17-2012, 06:49 PM
  #94
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lafleurs guy, you learn to be concise, i don't know how many 1,000 word essays i can read before it all becomes a blur...
I'll do what I can man. But when I read stuff like the Canadiens having obligation to remain mediocre as a result of our supposed responsibility to the NHL as being a top revenue generator... sometimes I can't help myself.

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01-17-2012, 08:04 PM
  #95
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You've got it backwards, they won cups because they were HOF caliber players. It doesn't mean that every player who's HOF calibre will win a cup, but players with that kind of talent often win a cup sooner or later.

And those cup winning teams had guys on it who were going into the HOF with or without winning a cup. Yzerman, Niedermayer, Forsberg, Jagr... those are all HOF resumes no matter how many cups they win.
HOFers win cup = fact

However to get to the HOF you need trophies, achievements ect. Winning a cup is one of them. On almost every cup winning team you have a Conne Smythe winner which is probably almost an instant entrance to the HOF and the best players on the team get good consideration if they had a decent or good career.

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01-17-2012, 08:38 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
HOFers win cup = fact

However to get to the HOF you need trophies, achievements ect. Winning a cup is one of them. On almost every cup winning team you have a Conne Smythe winner which is probably almost an instant entrance to the HOF and the best players on the team get good consideration if they had a decent or good career.
Okay but guys like Lafleur, Bossy, Gretzky, Roy, Jagr, Yzerman, Forsberg, Niedermayer and Pronger were going to the HOF regardless...

And it's not surprising at all that these players went on to lead their teams to win cups with their respective teams. If you have a guy like Scott Niedermayer, your chances of winning a cup go up significantly. He can't do it alone but if you have a good team, he makes a huge difference. Look at what he did for the Ducks.

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