HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Kaberle playing time

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-17-2012, 11:19 AM
  #176
lxzred
Registered User
 
lxzred's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Victoria
Country: Canada
Posts: 356
vCash: 500
If you want to compare Kaberle to the Niedermayers, Lindstroms or Markovs of the world of course he comes up short as an all round defenceman. How about if we compare him with the Mcabes, Gonchars and Cambells of the world, Does he look so "inept" in that category?

lxzred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2012, 11:35 AM
  #177
Miller Time
Registered User
 
Miller Time's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 8,575
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by lxzred View Post
If you want to compare Kaberle to the Niedermayers, Lindstroms or Markovs of the world of course he comes up short as an all round defenceman. How about if we compare him with the Mcabes, Gonchars and Cambells of the world, Does he look so "inept" in that category?
yes he does (maybe not Mccabe, but he's not even in the league anymore)

Miller Time is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2012, 11:44 AM
  #178
lxzred
Registered User
 
lxzred's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Victoria
Country: Canada
Posts: 356
vCash: 500
lol - you mean the Gonchar of this year or last year, cause Kaberle has better numbers than Gonchar and Gonchar sucks almost as much defensively and makes $2mill more a year.

lxzred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2012, 12:11 PM
  #179
Miller Time
Registered User
 
Miller Time's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 8,575
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by lxzred View Post
lol - you mean the Gonchar of this year or last year, cause Kaberle has better numbers than Gonchar and Gonchar sucks almost as much defensively and makes $2mill more a year.
- Gonchar makes 1.25M$ more per near, not 2M$.


since you mentioned "niedemayers, markoves" in your example, I assumed you were talking beyond just this year (since, as you should know, neither niedemayer/markov are playing in the NHL this year).

but let's look at it...
Is Kaberle better than Gonchar right now?

I haven't seen enough of Ottawa to really comment on Gonchar, but it is probably pretty telling that Gonchar is getting 22min/night on one of the top teams in the league (tied for 6th overall at this point), whereas Kaberle has been getting ~18min from both bottom dwellers he's played for this year.



and ignoring Gonchar's contributions to Ottawa's success this year, after his disastrous year last year, by all accounts, Gonchar was a bust as a UFA signing for the Sens, lucky for them, the quick emmergence of Cowen/Karlsson helped mitigate it, and he found his way back to being a solid contributor in a top-4 role...


so if your point is that Gonchar sucks and is a bad investment at 5.5M$, there is no consolation to be found in acknowledging that Kaberle sucks just as much (and quite likely, sucks considerably more), but is 1.25M$ cheaper.


sorry, you can keep trying to dig for some way to make sense of the trade for Kaberle in a positive light, but the facts remain:

- he has not helped the Habs PP improve
- he is overpaid at 4.25M$ given the limited ways he is used (by his past 3 coaches)
- the only positive hope we have is that either some team makes an equally stupid decision and trades us some superior asset (like an expiring contract or draft picks) at the deadline, or that by some miracle, he starts to care again and decides to actually compete every night, every shift, and uses his vast skill set for more than collecting pts in sheltered minutes on a losing team.

Miller Time is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2012, 12:12 PM
  #180
AreYouHockey
Registered User
 
AreYouHockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 439
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs View Post
You know, only a true Habs homer would suggest MAB's 24pts and +8 is terrible, on a team playing so poorly with only 5 players in the + category. Somehow these stats should place him as a terrible blueliner.... but better yet, one of the worst in NHL history.. amazing.

... better yet, Kaberle is a plus player for his career ... on incredibly bad Toronto teams and he has almost 550 pts to show for it as well.. and he belongs as one of the worst ever as well? Gotcha. No wonder people just brush opinions around here as 'garbage'

God I love the double standards around this place, it is always good for a laugh.
Very true. Agree sir.

AreYouHockey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2012, 12:14 PM
  #181
AreYouHockey
Registered User
 
AreYouHockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 439
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by lxzred View Post
If you want to compare Kaberle to the Niedermayers, Lindstroms or Markovs of the world of course he comes up short as an all round defenceman. How about if we compare him with the Mcabes, Gonchars and Cambells of the world, Does he look so "inept" in that category?
Oh yeah, that famous Lindstrom.

AreYouHockey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2012, 12:40 PM
  #182
Beakermania*
 
Beakermania*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kingston or Hamilton
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,964
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
His age has nothing to do with the fact that since being traded from Toronto he has gotten worse and worse
He has 9 pts in 16 games and is a -1 since arriving in Montreal.... I don't see that as "getting worse and worse"

Beakermania* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2012, 12:43 PM
  #183
Habs 4 Life
No Excuses
 
Habs 4 Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Montreal
Country: Italy
Posts: 33,821
vCash: 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
He has 9 pts in 16 games and is a -1 since arriving in Montreal.... I don't see that as "getting worse and worse"
If he is playing so well why does the coaching staff keep cutting his minutes?

Habs 4 Life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2012, 12:48 PM
  #184
Beakermania*
 
Beakermania*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kingston or Hamilton
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,964
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
If he is playing so well why does the coaching staff keep cutting his minutes?
This has been explained by several posters already in this thread... but here goes.

The Habs are playing 7 defencemen, because there is a need to keep Gill and to some extent Campoli in the lineup for deadline day trades.

If you notice playing 7 defencemen means that with the exception of Gorges and Subban who are the top 2 dmen, the ice time has been cut for the other five guys.

This is especially true of the Dmen who play on the left side, like Kaberle does.

Beakermania* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2012, 01:04 PM
  #185
Miller Time
Registered User
 
Miller Time's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 8,575
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
This has been explained by several posters already in this thread... but here goes.

The Habs are playing 7 defencemen, because there is a need to keep Gill and to some extent Campoli in the lineup for deadline day trades.

If you notice playing 7 defencemen means that with the exception of Gorges and Subban who are the top 2 dmen, the ice time has been cut for the other five guys.

This is especially true of the Dmen who play on the left side, like Kaberle does.
RIGHT... so Kaberle got less than 9min last game (and 17min the day before, in an OT game) b/c the team is playing 7dmen...

the rational you use doesn't explain why a 4.25M$ dman is getting 16-17min a game, or less, from the current coach.

the team is playing to win first and foremost at this point (wether one agrees/disagrees is another matter), if Kaberle was playing up to the level he "should" be playing, he'd be getting his ~20+minutes/night, just like Subban/Gorges.

that he's being shuffled in a rotation with our bottom-quality dmen is a reflection of the coaching staff having little confidence in him, not some need to equalize ice time.



let me ask you a simple question... would you be defending PG if he signed Gill or Campoli for next year @ 4.25M$?



it's b/c he's playing no better than a bottom-pairing dman

Miller Time is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2012, 01:04 PM
  #186
Habs 4 Life
No Excuses
 
Habs 4 Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Montreal
Country: Italy
Posts: 33,821
vCash: 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
This has been explained by several posters already in this thread... but here goes.

The Habs are playing 7 defencemen, because there is a need to keep Gill and to some extent Campoli in the lineup for deadline day trades.

If you notice playing 7 defencemen means that with the exception of Gorges and Subban who are the top 2 dmen, the ice time has been cut for the other five guys.

This is especially true of the Dmen who play on the left side, like Kaberle does.
The trade deadline is a month and 1/2 away. The Habs picked up Kaberle to help this team NOW not for the next 2 years on his contract. You are really going to try an convince me of that? The Habs are showcasing Gill and Campoli and not playing Kaberle a player they picked up to try and save their season. Come on

Habs 4 Life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2012, 01:12 PM
  #187
Monctonscout
Monctonscout
 
Monctonscout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 32,341
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
The trade deadline is a month and 1/2 away. The Habs picked up Kaberle to help this team NOW not for the next 2 years on his contract. You are really going to try an convince me of that? The Habs are showcasing Gill and Campoli and not playing Kaberle a player they picked up to try and save their season. Come on
That NOW was when we were neck and neck for 8th place. When you are 13th and 8 or 9 points out your priorities change.

Monctonscout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2012, 01:13 PM
  #188
Beakermania*
 
Beakermania*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kingston or Hamilton
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,964
vCash: 500
4.25 million for a 45-50 pt dman... doesn't get you a 20+ minute per game guy.

If you want 20+ minutes and matching up defensively against top pairings, take a look at what Jay Bouwmeester and Brian Campbell got paid to supposedly do that job. You are talking 7 million plus.

We keep saying this is a bad contract... but its not.

Its fair value for a guy who will play 16-18 minutes on your third pairing with 6 defencemen, and who will score 45-50 pts.

Beakermania* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2012, 01:14 PM
  #189
Habs 4 Life
No Excuses
 
Habs 4 Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Montreal
Country: Italy
Posts: 33,821
vCash: 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
That NOW was when we were neck and neck for 8th place. When you are 13th and 8 or 9 points out your priorities change.
So you're saying exactly what I've been saying for months now, Gauthier has no idea how to manage. Thank You!

Habs 4 Life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2012, 01:15 PM
  #190
Beakermania*
 
Beakermania*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kingston or Hamilton
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,964
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
The trade deadline is a month and 1/2 away. The Habs picked up Kaberle to help this team NOW not for the next 2 years on his contract. You are really going to try an convince me of that? The Habs are showcasing Gill and Campoli and not playing Kaberle a player they picked up to try and save their season. Come on
We played Kaberle when he first arrived.

Kaberle played well, he produced pts, he was doing his job.

The rest of the team did not play so well.

The rest of the team sucking caused us to fall out of playoff contention.

Priorities have changed.... the Cammalleri trade alone should tell you that this is a team in sell mode now.

Beakermania* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2012, 01:16 PM
  #191
Beakermania*
 
Beakermania*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kingston or Hamilton
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,964
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
So you're saying exactly what I've been saying for months now, Gauthier has no idea how to manage. Thank You!


The Kaberle trade had nothing to do with the slide.

Kaberle's play since joining Montreal has exceeded all expectations.

Unfortunately the play of his teammates has not.

Beakermania* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2012, 01:19 PM
  #192
Monctonscout
Monctonscout
 
Monctonscout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 32,341
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
So you're saying exactly what I've been saying for months now, Gauthier has no idea how to manage. Thank You!
I get it, I get it...you hate the guy and can't be objective about anything he's done.

I'm sure a good GM would be getting 90 points a year out of Gomez and 40 goals a year out of Cammalleri plus Markov would be healthy and Subban wouldn't have a sophmore slump.

Monctonscout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2012, 01:20 PM
  #193
Habs 4 Life
No Excuses
 
Habs 4 Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Montreal
Country: Italy
Posts: 33,821
vCash: 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant View Post


The Kaberle trade had nothing to do with the slide.

Kaberle's play since joining Montreal has exceeded all expectations.

Unfortunately the play of his teammates has not.
Yes by playing 8 minutes a game with a salary and cap hit of 4.25.

Seriously think about what you're saying, 4.25 for 3 years of a #6 d that can play 8 to 10 minutes but give you around 40pts. That is not the way you build a team, when your #6 d is making 4.25 please tell that to someone else

Habs 4 Life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2012, 01:20 PM
  #194
swimmer77
Post Oates
 
swimmer77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: in water
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 3,438
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
This has been explained by several posters already in this thread... but here goes.

The Habs are playing 7 defencemen, because there is a need to keep Gill and to some extent Campoli in the lineup for deadline day trades.

If you notice playing 7 defencemen means that with the exception of Gorges and Subban who are the top 2 dmen, the ice time has been cut for the other five guys.

This is especially true of the Dmen who play on the left side, like Kaberle does.
I could possibly see the light with that explanation but against St. Louis it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. The Habs were losing and lost. They were a bunch of losers. LOL They didn't score a goal. Kaberle played only 12 minutes. I don't care if they are dressing 7 d-men why not have the offensive wizard out on the ice as much as possible? Does not make sense to me. Sorry.

I can understanding showcasing some of the other guys but I thought the reason Kaberle was acquired was to help the team as much as possible this year yet.

swimmer77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2012, 01:26 PM
  #195
Habs 4 Life
No Excuses
 
Habs 4 Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Montreal
Country: Italy
Posts: 33,821
vCash: 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
I get it, I get it...you hate the guy and can't be objective about anything he's done.

I'm sure a good GM would be getting 90 points a year out of Gomez and 40 goals a year out of Cammalleri plus Markov would be healthy and Subban wouldn't have a sophmore slump.
Wrong and it shows again that you read simply what you want. I gave him props about the Halak trade, just said I still think we could have gotten something better

I gave him props for the Cammy trade, go read

The Kaberle trade makes 0 sense, 0 stop trying to defend this move

I don't hate the guy cause I just want to hate him, I do not think Pierre Gauthier is the right guy for this job going forward

So again don't put words in peoples mouth, cause we all know you're great at that

Habs 4 Life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2012, 01:27 PM
  #196
Miller Time
Registered User
 
Miller Time's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 8,575
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Commandant View Post
4.25 million for a 45-50 pt dman... doesn't get you a 20+ minute per game guy.

If you want 20+ minutes and matching up defensively against top pairings, take a look at what Jay Bouwmeester and Brian Campbell got paid to supposedly do that job. You are talking 7 million plus.

We keep saying this is a bad contract... but its not.

Its fair value for a guy who will play 16-18 minutes on your third pairing with 6 defencemen, and who will score 45-50 pts.
right...

compare Kaberle to the worst dmen contracts given out in recent years, and sure, you can feel better...

just like any team in the league can look at the Gomez deal, and feel like they are doing ok with any underperforming player they have, b/c it's not that bad.


and it's still not even a good comparison, b/c JBo & Campbell are 25+min/night top pairing dmen...

~20min/night is second pairing guys on most good teams.

4.25M$, for a second pairing dman who can put up 40-50pts, makes sense...

guys like Hamhuis, Carle, White, Liles, Streit fall somewhere around that category, either being a bit less offensively productive but better defensively, or vice versa.

Kaberle is CLEARLY less effective than guys like that at this point (hence the 16-18min), and the reality is that he won't be a 40-50pt guy again with only 16-18min/night (on pace for 31 this year).

he put up the bulk of his 47pts while playing big minutes in toronto last year, his scoring rate fell off significantly when he went to Boston, where by playoff time he was down to 16min/game.

his ppg clip since coming to montreal has been great, but his ice time and overall effectiveness remains no where near the 4,25M$ range.

he's far closer to a MAB type (big pts in sheltered minutes/role) than he is to the quality 4-5M$ dmen who out there, who all get 20+min a game b/c of how well they play.

it's impossible to miss unless one is convinced that pts on the stat sheet line is the only measure of a player's value.

Miller Time is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2012, 01:28 PM
  #197
Habs 4 Life
No Excuses
 
Habs 4 Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Montreal
Country: Italy
Posts: 33,821
vCash: 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by swimmer77 View Post
I could possibly see the light with that explanation but against St. Louis it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. The Habs were losing and lost. They were a bunch of losers. LOL They didn't score a goal. Kaberle played only 12 minutes. I don't care if they are dressing 7 d-men why not have the offensive wizard out on the ice as much as possible? Does not make sense to me. Sorry.

I can understanding showcasing some of the other guys but I thought the reason Kaberle was acquired was to help the team as much as possible this year yet.
No that was a month ago now things have changed don't you read. Can't figure out some people

Habs 4 Life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2012, 01:33 PM
  #198
Miller Time
Registered User
 
Miller Time's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 8,575
vCash: 500
really, when it comes to dmen, salary is/should more reflective of role contribution & how much the team can expect to rely on them to give quality minutes, than it is a direct reflection of point production...

if a dman can't give you 20+min/night of quality ice-time, it's very hard for him to contribute enough to warrant a big contract.

Kaberle can't give even non-playoff teams 20+ minutes a night... bad contract. really is as simple as that.

Miller Time is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2012, 01:36 PM
  #199
lxzred
Registered User
 
lxzred's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Victoria
Country: Canada
Posts: 356
vCash: 500
So which other 50 pt ppqb D-men >< $4.25 mill where or are available?

lxzred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-17-2012, 01:38 PM
  #200
holyhabs87
Registered User
 
holyhabs87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,816
vCash: 500
I liked the trade when it was made, but they way we use him leads me to join others in saying it was not worth it.

holyhabs87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:31 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.