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Old
01-17-2012, 02:45 PM
  #26
hototogisu
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Originally Posted by jwolf View Post
What's astounding is that it takes a former player from another organization to say or write something in defence of our stud Dman. No one from the Habs - not Gainey, not Gauthier, not Molson nor Gionta - has the sack to stand behind this splendid, young player.
Guide him, develop him and stand up for him and the kid will bleed for this team!

Thanks, Bobby Holik for being a real hockey man who makes real hockey observations!
What are they supposed to do, call a press conference to tell the media and the fans to stop picking on Subban? Come on.

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01-17-2012, 02:52 PM
  #27
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thats not him theres no accent

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01-17-2012, 02:56 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
What are they supposed to do, call a press conference to tell the media and the fans to stop picking on Subban? Come on.
no fans are not the problem even the media more like some of histeamates need to simmer with the jealousy and let PK be Pk-
teamamtes mad because Subban celebrates after a goal? im sure they get all snotty looking when they see another subban story in the papers or a commercial - it is what it is - borring players are not going to get air time commercials and fame not like interesting dynamic young players get- Gorges has to realize that and some of the others- i bet cammy just seethed when he saw another subban commercial or story= LOL

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01-17-2012, 03:02 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
What are they supposed to do, call a press conference to tell the media and the fans to stop picking on Subban? Come on.
not quite... but on the other hand, with some of the bush league crap that's been said about him in the media by some other players, it wouldn't be so outlandish for someone in the organization to speak up loudly on his behalf.

Look at how quickly AV went to town on Bolland for his "joke" about the Sedins on the radio a few months back.

that kind of (emotional) response by your coach makes it pretty clear he's got your back/believes in you.

I know that Gainey, and now Gauthier, preferred the whole "we're too classy to comment/respond" approach in general, but I think that is a "missing the point" approach.

Perhaps Gainey's most remembered public comment was the way he went to town on the fans in defense of Brisebois... I can guarantee you that it had a deep impact not just on Breezer, but on every guy in that locker room.

Gauthier hasn't once stepped in front of the mike and spoken out loudly/defiantly in support of his players, and that does not go unnoticed (nor does his "tail btw the legs" reaction to the RC language storm).

it's why a guy like Burke, for all the warts, has such a positive reputation with the players he's managed (even when they get moved/demoted etc). Players do understand that it is a business, but it isn't "business" concerns that pushes a guy to dive in front of a puck, or stand up to some bigger tougher guy in defense of his teammate, or fight back from an injury/play through an injury for the "team"... that's ALL emotions.

when you have leadership that treats it like a business, like simple financial transactions when moving players/firing coaches (as PG has in dealing with Pearns, JM, Spacek, Cammalleri), I think you lose an element of that emotional commitment that strong/successful organizations cultivate.

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01-17-2012, 03:03 PM
  #30
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I'd love to hear Bobby's advice for Lars Eller.

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01-17-2012, 03:04 PM
  #31
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Something about Holik's face always made me hate him but he's 100% right. I'll change my completely undeserved opinion of him right away

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01-17-2012, 03:17 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by neofury View Post
Thank you. Others don't seem to see it that way but at least I know some folks actually watch the games and understand player utilization and development.

PK is CLEARLY being asked to do too much defensively. He plays 25 minutes a night and he hasn't been making nearly as many risky plays (offense 90% of the time when he does, or a big hit) this year.

Why? Because he's been asked to be a guy who leads by example and is pretty much playing a veterans role in his 2nd NHL season. People need to realize if PK was insulated with some other tough minutes crunching D he'd be hitting more, would have more time on attack rather than D and thus, better numbers. Then people wouldn't worry about the mistakes he makes (few for a guy playing so much) and would just focus on the numbers like they always do.
When you put it in context he's having a great year. He's young and still learning the ropes. I think we all were hoping that he'd put up better offensive numbers this year but he's certainly not bad.

As for him making mistakes in judgement, yes it is still happening. But that's to be expected and quite frankly this year I don't really care. It's a development year for him and there's no time to do this like when we aren't contenders so we just need to sit tight and let him learn from his mistakes.

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01-17-2012, 03:19 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
When you put it in context he's having a great year. He's young and still learning the ropes. I think we all were hoping that he'd put up better offensive numbers this year but he's certainly not bad.

As for him making mistakes in judgement, yes it is still happening. But that's to be expected and quite frankly this year I don't really care. It's a development year for him and there's no time to do this like when we aren't contenders so we just need to sit tight and let him learn from his mistakes.
Absolutely- he is only 22 years old- WOW

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01-17-2012, 03:41 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
When you put it in context he's having a great year. He's young and still learning the ropes. I think we all were hoping that he'd put up better offensive numbers this year but he's certainly not bad.

As for him making mistakes in judgement, yes it is still happening. But that's to be expected and quite frankly this year I don't really care. It's a development year for him and there's no time to do this like when we aren't contenders so we just need to sit tight and let him learn from his mistakes.
Agreed. To word it differently, he's having a bad year, but he has an acceptable excuse. In his case, the dog really ate his homework.

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01-17-2012, 03:56 PM
  #35
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01-17-2012, 03:58 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by ForeverAlone View Post
Even Dany Dube said that the talks of trading Subban were completely idiotic. I've never heard him rant about something so passionately.
I actually do disrespect Subban, mainly due to his turtling which forces teamates to put out his fires, but I don't wish for him to be traded. The talent is obvious, the potential is very high and maturity should naturally follow. That said, he is by no means an untouchable. Untouchables do not exist. Every player has a price, even...Price!

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01-17-2012, 03:59 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
What are they supposed to do, call a press conference to tell the media and the fans to stop picking on Subban? Come on.
Fans picking on Subban? Women have been seeing throwing their new born babies on the ice every time PK touches the puck.

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01-17-2012, 04:00 PM
  #38
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IT was a good column by Mr. Holik, be sure to listen to our podcast that just went up - we talk about the habs for the first 15 minutes.

Please tweet us, PM me if you have any questions/comments for Bobby and I.

Thanks!

Bobby Kruger
HolikOnHockey

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01-17-2012, 04:02 PM
  #39
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Except that he's not having a bad year.
Okay then...sophmore slumping

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01-17-2012, 04:19 PM
  #40
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PK subban had 38 points last year. He is on pace for 33 this year. Not exactly a massive slump. I know he's not scoring as many goals this year, but it was the second half last year whn he really exploded, and he has so much more responsibility on him defensively this year, because of know spacek, hamrlik, and markov again to impose their defensive abilities. Once our defence gets healthy and sorted out, PK is going to be an offensive cannon in the future.

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01-17-2012, 04:29 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by 24stanleycups View Post
PK subban had 38 points last year. He is on pace for 33 this year. Not exactly a massive slump. I know he's not scoring as many goals this year, but it was the second half last year whn he really exploded, and he has so much more responsibility on him defensively this year, because of know spacek, hamrlik, and markov again to impose their defensive abilities. Once our defence gets healthy and sorted out, PK is going to be an offensive cannon in the future.
With a good second half, he could even beat his 38 pts...

Anyhow, alot of pressure in Montreal and I think PK has handles it very well...yes he still has alot to learn and some maturing, but for the love of god people, try to have some patience...the kid is 22 yrs old handling some responsibility a 30 yr old dman may not want...please, be patient...

As for a trade, I hope not, but if it was one of those crazy offers that contained an elite Centreman that we have lacked for the past 20 yrs, I would listen, but honestly, I hope the kid wins a Norris for the Habs in a couple of years...and maybe a Cup...

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01-17-2012, 04:51 PM
  #42
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the only slump, comparable to last year, are his Goals. But that can change with a few games, 1 2 goal game and few goals, and he'll have lasst years stats.
He's always been high risk/ high reward player, though shows sings that he can become low risk/high reward player (PO's). I think that will come with time as he will mature and will understand when to take calculated risks. Which IMO is only aspect of his game that still requires improving.

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01-17-2012, 04:56 PM
  #43
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PK better be having a slump or he needs to turn his game around. Gorges has been covering his ass pretty heavily almost all season. I have seen many times during a game they cut to a close up of gorges *****ing at him after a play is whistled dead.

He was an elite offensive dman who is quickly turning into a mediocre defensive dman, this ship needs to be righted and PK needs to hit a damn net.

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01-17-2012, 05:04 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeriousHabs View Post
I actually do disrespect Subban, mainly due to his turtling which forces teamates to put out his fires, but I don't wish for him to be traded. The talent is obvious, the potential is very high and maturity should naturally follow. That said, he is by no means an untouchable. Untouchables do not exist. Every player has a price, even...Price!
Yes, but the reason why people want to trade him is because he's too flashy and assume some of his teammates are tired.

I agree with you in the untouchables part, but if you trade a player for the wrong reasons, you'll end up with a bad return most of the time.

The only reason I'd trade Subban or Price is if after trading him we're a better team.

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01-17-2012, 05:06 PM
  #45
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not quite... but on the other hand, with some of the bush league crap that's been said about him in the media by some other players, it wouldn't be so outlandish for someone in the organization to speak up loudly on his behalf.

Look at how quickly AV went to town on Bolland for his "joke" about the Sedins on the radio a few months back.

that kind of (emotional) response by your coach makes it pretty clear he's got your back/believes in you.

I know that Gainey, and now Gauthier, preferred the whole "we're too classy to comment/respond" approach in general, but I think that is a "missing the point" approach.

Perhaps Gainey's most remembered public comment was the way he went to town on the fans in defense of Brisebois... I can guarantee you that it had a deep impact not just on Breezer, but on every guy in that locker room.

Gauthier hasn't once stepped in front of the mike and spoken out loudly/defiantly in support of his players, and that does not go unnoticed (nor does his "tail btw the legs" reaction to the RC language storm).

it's why a guy like Burke, for all the warts, has such a positive reputation with the players he's managed (even when they get moved/demoted etc). Players do understand that it is a business, but it isn't "business" concerns that pushes a guy to dive in front of a puck, or stand up to some bigger tougher guy in defense of his teammate, or fight back from an injury/play through an injury for the "team"... that's ALL emotions.

when you have leadership that treats it like a business, like simple financial transactions when moving players/firing coaches (as PG has in dealing with Pearns, JM, Spacek, Cammalleri), I think you lose an element of that emotional commitment that strong/successful organizations cultivate.
That's a shock because the only reason breezebye was even on the team was because of the "old boys club". Hard to imagine such a player in the nhl if not for pulling a few strings.

If "daddy" needs to step in and protect his "babies" everytime someone takes a few shots at them then they wont make it here anyways and should leave.

Gauthier is doing a fine job with this team as a GM, if someone needs to stand up for his players it is the coach not the GM.

PG canned Pearns and JM just like they deserved it, if they are so sore they shouldn't have come back. Neither was doing their job and are lucky to still be employed. Cammy was devolving into a cancer and was fired out the door asap, good bye. Can't cry over every player that is traded.

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01-17-2012, 05:11 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
yup...

the key part of the article though, is how Holik viewed his organization and their support of him at the time.

I wonder, if PK would describe the habs (under Martin or RC) the same way?

I seriously doubt it...
Ofcourse you had to find a way to bring in "negativity". At least you are creative.

Considering the fact that they give him every opportunity to shine and allow him to play his game and showcase his personality, I don't think he would whine about anything like some of us love to do.


Last edited by BlackStar: 01-17-2012 at 05:19 PM.
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01-17-2012, 05:53 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by uiCk View Post
the only slump, comparable to last year, are his Goals. But that can change with a few games, 1 2 goal game and few goals, and he'll have lasst years stats.
He's always been high risk/ high reward player, though shows sings that he can become low risk/high reward player (PO's). I think that will come with time as he will mature and will understand when to take calculated risks. Which IMO is only aspect of his game that still requires improving.
Lots of people use really basic stats (goals, assist, points, +-) or things that are "in your face" to form an opinion. They don't really notice the small plays or are easily influenced by what people tells them to think. It's even worse now that he isn't a rookie since he ain't new anymore so his mistakes become much more noticable and his good plays (wich by far outweight the bad ones) get taken for granted. This kind of thinking explain the ridiculous trade proposals for players people barely see play wich makes them mistake free in their mind (since their mistakes don't end up on highlights reel). (That's not to say all trade proposals are stupid and our players are the best and players from other teams suck but it does follow the "grass is always greener.." mentality)

I said in another thread. if PK has 4-5 more goals right now while playing the same way, noone is even talking about a somophore slump. Goals are easily quantifiables and it doesn't take alot of observation to know how many goals a player has, I can just go on NHL.com and form an opinion on said players performance. Sadly NHL.com doesn't say that PK Subban currently has a positive Corsi, extremely tough assignements and alot of defensive zone starts, I can however see that PK is currently shooting at 2.5 % (he did 7.1 last year) wich is extremely low even for a Dman. So when he pot a few in a row as % regresses to the mean, I expect him to take a whole lot less heat for his "bad play".

Pretty much any advanced stats would however say that PK isn't currently struggling. Doesn't mean he can't have some bad games since, who doesn't ?
But if you go look at Boucher scouting, listen to what posters like Mathman say, En attandant les nordiques, this article : http://blogs.thescore.com/nhl/2011/1...-pernell-karl/ they all pretty much disagree with the notion that PK Subban is currently having a bad season.

Basically, I'm not worried about PK Subban. I'm more worried about the people who want to trade him. And that's not because I want to overrate our players, it's because he's a damn good defenceman and he's still getting better.

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01-17-2012, 05:59 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by SeriousHabs View Post
I actually do disrespect Subban, mainly due to his turtling which forces teamates to put out his fires, but I don't wish for him to be traded. The talent is obvious, the potential is very high and maturity should naturally follow. That said, he is by no means an untouchable. Untouchables do not exist. Every player has a price, even...Price!
What "fire" did they have to put out? He ran over Krejci and Boston reacted, would you rather we go into Boston intimidated and lose 8-1 every time? Boston hates that even with their goons they don't intimidate the Habs. Last spring half our team nearly took out their cup champs.

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01-17-2012, 06:02 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
not quite... but on the other hand, with some of the bush league crap that's been said about him in the media by some other players, it wouldn't be so outlandish for someone in the organization to speak up loudly on his behalf.

Look at how quickly AV went to town on Bolland for his "joke" about the Sedins on the radio a few months back.

that kind of (emotional) response by your coach makes it pretty clear he's got your back/believes in you.

I know that Gainey, and now Gauthier, preferred the whole "we're too classy to comment/respond" approach in general, but I think that is a "missing the point" approach.

Perhaps Gainey's most remembered public comment was the way he went to town on the fans in defense of Brisebois... I can guarantee you that it had a deep impact not just on Breezer, but on every guy in that locker room.

Gauthier hasn't once stepped in front of the mike and spoken out loudly/defiantly in support of his players, and that does not go unnoticed (nor does his "tail btw the legs" reaction to the RC language storm).

it's why a guy like Burke, for all the warts, has such a positive reputation with the players he's managed (even when they get moved/demoted etc). Players do understand that it is a business, but it isn't "business" concerns that pushes a guy to dive in front of a puck, or stand up to some bigger tougher guy in defense of his teammate, or fight back from an injury/play through an injury for the "team"... that's ALL emotions.

when you have leadership that treats it like a business, like simple financial transactions when moving players/firing coaches (as PG has in dealing with Pearns, JM, Spacek, Cammalleri), I think you lose an element of that emotional commitment that strong/successful organizations cultivate.
What he said

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01-17-2012, 06:31 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by RaMMuT View Post
PK is having a bad year, but next year...he will be AMAZING

book it!
People keep saying this. Is it bad to be leading your team in points and ice time?

Lets say PK did not have the season he did last year. If I told you a 22 year old dman was leading the d core in ice time and points..pretty sure you'd be happy with that.

Is PK playing as well as last year? Offensively? No. Deffensively? Yes. I don't understand the "PK is playing bad" talk. Everything he does is magnified for some reason. You'd think he's the only dman who gives the puck away.

Holik was right on the money and he iterated what I've been saying. The NHL and its fans are very old school in their thinking. You have to act a certain way. Eff that! PK needs to play his game and ignore the haters.

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