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Why John Tavares is good, not great

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Old
01-17-2012, 04:07 PM
  #26
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Every hockey fan I know (the vast majority non-Isles fans) thinks Tavares is a stud player. The guy that wrote the article hasn't a clue...

To be doing what he does on the team he does it on. Well, I just don't know what to say. Tavares must have spurned this guy's interview request for his high school newspaper or something.

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01-17-2012, 04:16 PM
  #27
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I don't have a problem with the title of this thread. Is John Tavares GREAT ? I can't call him great just yet. To me, when I think of GREAT players in the NHL, I think of Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, Stamkos and the Sedins. Tavares is not at their level, just yet. Is John Tavares good ? At this point, I'd say he's Very Good, heading towards Great. Not just there yet. That's just my humble opinion. And you'd be hard pressed to find a bigger JT fan than me. I will say, he is definitely one of the top 50 players overall, and definitely in the top 25 under 2 years old. The kid is freaking 21 on one of the worst teams in the NHL. In time, he could be an all time great. We shall see. But it sure is fun watching it unfold.

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01-17-2012, 04:20 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toujin View Post
Meanwhile, TSN, the people who actually know about hockey, published their ranking of the top players in the NHL right now

http://www.tsn.ca/fantasy_news/feature/?ID=10467


22. Matt Moulson LW N.Y. Islanders 79.73
23. John Tavares C N.Y. Islanders 79.62


Well how about that? JT is ranked at the #23 player in the ENTIRE LEAGUE, and this dip**** thinks he's not even in the Top 25 of Under 25 year olds?

Yikes.
Any list that puts Moulson ahead of Tavares is also pretty bad in my book. Judging by the 79.73 and 79.62, the ranking derives from some algorithm which is obviously heavily weighing goal-scoring and not watching games.


Last edited by Isles Junkie: 01-17-2012 at 08:31 PM. Reason: edited quoted profanity
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Old
01-17-2012, 04:43 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by scott99 View Post
I don't have a problem with the title of this thread. Is John Tavares GREAT ? I can't call him great just yet. To me, when I think of GREAT players in the NHL, I think of Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, Stamkos and the Sedins. Tavares is not at their level, just yet. Is John Tavares good ? At this point, I'd say he's Very Good, heading towards Great. Not just there yet. That's just my humble opinion. And you'd be hard pressed to find a bigger JT fan than me. I will say, he is definitely one of the top 50 players overall, and definitely in the top 25 under 2 years old. The kid is freaking 21 on one of the worst teams in the NHL. In time, he could be an all time great. We shall see. But it sure is fun watching it unfold.
The only player in the NHL I'd take over him right now is Malkin. Johnny boy is a winner stuck on a loser team. I've never watched a player so focused while he is playing, he is like a heat seeking missile out there. His skating has improved leaps and bounds, he's turned his defensive game into a nice addition, he's near impossibly to knock off the puck, and he turns nothing into something every time he is out there.

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01-17-2012, 04:45 PM
  #30
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Why would somebody pay money to read these "insider" articles that are clearly asinine?

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01-17-2012, 04:54 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scott99 View Post
I don't have a problem with the title of this thread. Is John Tavares GREAT ? I can't call him great just yet. To me, when I think of GREAT players in the NHL, I think of Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, Stamkos and the Sedins. Tavares is not at their level, just yet. Is John Tavares good ? At this point, I'd say he's Very Good, heading towards Great. Not just there yet. That's just my humble opinion. And you'd be hard pressed to find a bigger JT fan than me. I will say, he is definitely one of the top 50 players overall, and definitely in the top 25 under 2 years old. The kid is freaking 21 on one of the worst teams in the NHL. In time, he could be an all time great. We shall see. But it sure is fun watching it unfold.
From the 2008 draft and on, there is no player that I'd rather have than Tavares other than Stamkos. In a couple of years, I think JT will be the better all-around player though. Stammer scores a helluva lot of goals, but where is TB in the standings? They suck just as bad as we do and it's mind-blowing when you look at some of the names on that team.

This whole article by this guy who I've never heard of before is stupid. He wants to be all scientific and use this metric that he developed, but it's clear that it's very flawed. Seeing his tweets just cements the fact that this guy doesn't know what he's talking about. I know it shouldn't bother me, but it does. I got your back JT! Forget all the naysayers and continue onto superstardom.

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Old
01-17-2012, 05:09 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by islesfan3991 View Post
He's making himself look even more foolish from the tweets that he's posting.

"Tavares didn't make it because even despite a favorable starting position he doesn't drive play. @ESPN_NHL"

Someone said to him that Tavares makes everyone around him better. His response?

"By inflating their point totals, sure. But not puck possession, where it matters."

"Agree he has made strides this year in the first half, however, doesn't mean we ignore last two full seasons."

"By what metric does he "dominates puck possession"? Give me facts, not "saw him good."

I'm pretty sure he's 6th in the league for takaways. Isn't that very good puck possession?

I'm really not even bothered by this. The guy is proving he knows nothing about hockey and is a fool.
I seriously cannot believe what I just read. People this ignorant should not be getting paid to write stuff like this...Everything he says is the complete opposite of the truth and it was published on ESPN. They should be embarrased. I dont even...

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01-17-2012, 05:21 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by PJGooch View Post

Reading this Tavares explanation and the writer's own arguments in the comments thread of the original ranking, it sounds like his job was to just test out some new statistical metrics and see how they fly. There was a whole bunch of nonsense there citing statistics that I literally have never heard of in my life.
Dumb ESPN invented a new NFL statistic recently, it wouldnt surprise me if they invented some new NHL statistics
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Originally Posted by Twine Seeking Missle View Post
ESPN still exists?
I get MLBNet, NHLNet, NFLNet, NBA TVand have not watched SCenter regurally for a few years now. Hopefully enough people realize ESPN is fluff now and their ratings go down enough they get back to showing highlights (mostly). ESONs boner for the NFL is horrible too, they seemed to act like we were losing something when the NFL was in labor woe, but no where near the same level of concern when the NBA was gone (and it hurt this NBA season more than the NFL one did)

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01-17-2012, 05:33 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Trumanperro View Post
If anyone is still going there to get their hockey news, then they deserve what they are getting lol.
I'm definitely not going there for hockey news. Hockey news on ESPN is probably less common than bigfoot sightings.

ESPN used to be pretty good for everything else however. I remember a time when sportscenter would show highlights from pretty much EVERY game the night before. Now they're too busy talking about twitter scandals and Tim Tebow's life.

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Old
01-17-2012, 05:35 PM
  #35
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yeah now that the NBA is back I am even surprised when I see ANY video highlights on ESPN about hockey. I used to like ESPN but it has become brutal.

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01-17-2012, 05:38 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by PWJunior View Post
From the 2008 draft and on, there is no player that I'd rather have than Tavares other than Stamkos. In a couple of years, I think JT will be the better all-around player though. Stammer scores a helluva lot of goals, but where is TB in the standings? They suck just as bad as we do and it's mind-blowing when you look at some of the names on that team.

This whole article by this guy who I've never heard of before is stupid. He wants to be all scientific and use this metric that he developed, but it's clear that it's very flawed. Seeing his tweets just cements the fact that this guy doesn't know what he's talking about. I know it shouldn't bother me, but it does. I got your back JT! Forget all the naysayers and continue onto superstardom.
I'd take Tavares over Stamkos.

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01-17-2012, 06:50 PM
  #37
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Espn doesn't know jack squat about hockey.

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01-17-2012, 07:19 PM
  #38
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This guy just said Tavares is a "one-dimentional player". He has no idea what he's talking about. The things on his twitter page is a joke.

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01-17-2012, 07:35 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by islesfan3991 View Post
This guy just said Tavares is a "one-dimentional player". He has no idea what he's talking about. The things on his twitter page is a joke.
What is this guy's twitter? We should tee off on this guy.

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01-17-2012, 07:38 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by PWJunior View Post
What is this guy's twitter? We should tee off on this guy.
I was just thinking the same thing. I don't have twitter and don't want to make an account any time soon, so anyone that uses it willing to rip this guy a new *******?

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Old
01-17-2012, 07:40 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Bauer Warrior View Post
I'd take Tavares over Stamkos.
Sid's the only player I'd want over Tavares. And not because I'm an Isles fan.

There's a lot of great hockey players in the NHL today. Sid is clearly the best of the bunch (when healthy) but that next tier is very close among the Sedins, Malkin, Stamkos, Toews, Ovechkin, Kane - players that enter that discussion depending on the year and the specific stats that season.

BUT there are players on that list that you'd question their compete level, leadership, their defensive play, their overall offensive ability, their ability to play big games, some rely on others to produce big numbers....etc.

But you consider age, upside, current level of play, dedication & desire, maturity, class, ability to raise the level of teammates - I don't see another player on that list that I'd trade Tavares for.

I understand people will say I'm biased...but as objectively as I can be, I seriously wouldn't pick another player over Tavares.

In terms of the article, it's embarrassing, regardless of the source and the context. But I've said all year that JT is not yet appreciated by the NHL because nobody watches Islanders games, not with any consistency, except for fans. There's no media coverage.

Game-in, game-out, Tavares has been excellent in every way and getting better all the time.

Consider Moulson has never NOT played with Tavares, will be a 3 time 30 goal guy in the NHL, a league he was unable to make before JT. Consider Parenteau, unable to find work in the NHL by age 27, same thing. Okposo has had a resurgence.

Is it a surprise that JT's name shows up TWICE (1st and 6th) on THIS LIST?
This is a superstar we're seeing, he'll get the stats and recognition IN SPITE OF Wang and Snow, to because of the "support and development" they have provided.

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Old
01-17-2012, 07:41 PM
  #42
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I don't post here much.. But I can guarantee that JT will find it into the top 5 in points as soon as this season.

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01-17-2012, 07:43 PM
  #43
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Don't take offense. You guys make it like this is the first time we've ever been #### on. We're the perennial whipping boy franchise in not just hockey, but top three peon in all sports.

That said, I don't need to pay a third rate sports entertainment outfit to understand that John Tavares has been the blessing that this franchise sorely needed. We just need the talent around him to catch up and take the strides that he is taking. I have never in my 37 years on this earth seen a player improve in every way each game. He has become a world class leader, turned his skating weakness into a strength, became a premier playmaker, added strength, finishes, and is a pleasure to have on the team.

Thank God we didn't take Duchene, and thank God we didn't take Hedman. I have the utmost faith that John Tavares will take this team to places we haven't been in years.

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01-17-2012, 08:08 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PWJunior View Post
What is this guy's twitter? We should tee off on this guy.
http://twitter.com/ngreenberg

People have been teeing of on him a lot. But he keeps using his "excuses" for why Tavares isn't "great". His latest one?

"Isles are dominating #Caps tonight, but Tavares has still been on the ice for one less shot-for at net than against during even-str."

This is his reason why JT isn't a good two way player.

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01-17-2012, 08:36 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by islesfan3991 View Post
http://twitter.com/ngreenberg

People have been teeing of on him a lot. But he keeps using his "excuses" for why Tavares isn't "great". His latest one?

"Isles are dominating #Caps tonight, but Tavares has still been on the ice for one less shot-for at net than against during even-str."

This is his reason why JT isn't a good two way player.
I just checked out his twitter- sure seams more like a controversial piece just trying to make a name for himself rather than substance based.

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01-17-2012, 08:42 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by One for the thumb View Post
I just checked out his twitter- sure seams more like a controversial piece just trying to make a name for himself rather than substance based.
I've read part of it too and this guy is an idiot. Who the hell is he? What credentials does this guy have? He's a NOBODY.

Enjoy your 15 minutes of fame Greenberg because you've lost all credibility.

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01-17-2012, 10:03 PM
  #47
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Someone tell this moron to check the stats of Tavares this year with PA on his line and with KO on his line.

5-on-5 there is absolutely no comparison between the two lines.

Anyone who watched JT's ****ing games would see that JT was the best 5-on-5 player when the Moulson-JT-PA line was together. It wasn't even close. When it came to holding the puck in the offensive zone or regaining the puck in his own zone, JT was the guy that mattered all of the time with his old line.

Idiots who only check stats don't understand how those stats are compiling. So if someone is on a bad 5-on-5 line, and they only focus on that player's stats, then they won't see the problem with the line itself and said player's linemates. They'll defend that the stats backup their false hypothesis and won't understand what they're missing because they're not looking for it.

Anyone who has watched a ****ing hockey game since Moulson-JT-KO has been put together can tell the difference in puck possession between this line and the old one. JT wasn't the problem. The makeup of his old line was the problem.

Who had more chances to score tonight, JT's line or the opponents they played against? Since KO has joined the line, how often has the line been the most dangerous on the ice? The most noticeable on the ice?

John Tavares wasn't physically able to fully play his game until this season. Anyone who watched him play would see the visible differences in his play. Anyone who has watched him play regularly this season would see how dangerous he is on the ice. Anyone who has seen what his new line has done since it's been put together would see what was missing with the old line. They contest more loose pucks. They hold the puck in the offensive zone longer. They regain possession more often.

So chirp at the guy to compare the before and after with KO on the line (even with two poor performances against the Rags.) The stats are only going to get worse for his position as the season goes on (since the line will most likely stay together.) We'll see what he has to say when JT is +15 or something by the end of the season.

,
Mitch

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01-17-2012, 10:05 PM
  #48
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John Tavares must have hit him in the head 10 years ago with a LAX ball...

After reading his twitter this guy an idiot...

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Old
01-17-2012, 10:10 PM
  #49
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Should be fun for JT to prove this guy wrong throughout the course of the season. Someone remember to bump this later.

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Old
01-17-2012, 10:14 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchy22 View Post
Someone tell this moron to check the stats of Tavares this year with PA on his line and with KO on his line.

5-on-5 there is absolutely no comparison between the two lines.

Anyone who watched JT's ****ing games would see that JT was the best 5-on-5 player when the Moulson-JT-PA line was together. It wasn't even close. When it came to holding the puck in the offensive zone or regaining the puck in his own zone, JT was the guy that mattered all of the time with his old line.

Idiots who only check stats don't understand how those stats are compiling. So if someone is on a bad 5-on-5 line, and they only focus on that player's stats, then they won't see the problem with the line itself and said player's linemates. They'll defend that the stats backup their false hypothesis and won't understand what they're missing because they're not looking for it.

Anyone who has watched a ****ing hockey game since Moulson-JT-KO has been put together can tell the difference in puck possession between this line and the old one. JT wasn't the problem. The makeup of his old line was the problem.

Who had more chances to score tonight, JT's line or the opponents they played against? Since KO has joined the line, how often has the line been the most dangerous on the ice? The most noticeable on the ice?

John Tavares wasn't physically able to fully play his game until this season. Anyone who watched him play would see the visible differences in his play. Anyone who has watched him play regularly this season would see how dangerous he is on the ice. Anyone who has seen what his new line has done since it's been put together would see what was missing with the old line. They contest more loose pucks. They hold the puck in the offensive zone longer. They regain possession more often.

So chirp at the guy to compare the before and after with KO on the line (even with two poor performances against the Rags.) The stats are only going to get worse for his position as the season goes on (since the line will most likely stay together.) We'll see what he has to say when JT is +15 or something by the end of the season.

,
Mitch
EXACTLY Mitch!

I saw Moneyball the other day and this Greenberg fellow reminds me of that. Doesn't really watch the games, just looks at stats. Moneyball was flawed at it's core, just like this guy's metric that he's defending.

Right away, ranking Toews ahead of Crosby in his initial article... seriously? Toews is a fabulous player, but better than Sid? Tukka Rask at #5?

Go back to accounting or statistics and leave the hockey analysis to people who actually WATCH the game and understand it.

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