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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Selanne - Greatest to never win one of the 3 major awards?

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Old
01-16-2012, 05:30 PM
  #76
ushvinder
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I would rank selanne above perrault, his peak from 1996-2000 is clearly better than Perrault's peak and before someone mentions kariya, gilbert was playing with two all stars. Selanne easily wins on longevity too.

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01-17-2012, 06:56 PM
  #77
livewell68
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Originally Posted by OccupySheen View Post
He could have easily won the hart in I think it was 99' awful team, he was the only reason the team wasn't a joke. I know others had great years, but put any talent around him and he may have led the league in scoring....

regardless, doesn't take away from his career. if he plays next year he could challenge 700 goals
He had Karyia.

Selanne was 2nd in league scoring with 107 Pts, Karyia was 3rd with 104 Pts. Jagr was first with 127 Pts playing with Kip Miller and Hrdina.

Selanne wasn't even a Hart finalist in 1999. All of Cujo, Hasek, Yashin, Forsberg and Jagr were more deserving than Selanne.

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Old
01-17-2012, 07:00 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
I get the defensive part, that can be attributed solely to Kurri's game.

And don't get me wrong Kurri was a great player but the only reason we are even considering him with Selanne in this thread is that his scoring and playoff totals are greatly enhanced by Gretzky.

Even with the total package and picture of regular season, playoffs and international play and prime, peak, career it's pretty hard to argue that Kurri tops out Selanne.

Apps and Boucher I haven't looked at in depth but it doesn't look like either guy has more in total Temmu does IMO.

Selanne has lead an integrated NHL in goals 3 times (with a 2,3 and 10th as well) been top 10 in points 7 seasons and has a 31-20-17-37 line in the Olympics as well as an outstanding non NHL career.

He lead the Finnish league in goals with 39 in 92, the next best had 29 and was 4th in points with 62 at the age of 21.

The previous year at age 20 he was a solid 2nd in the league with 33 goals 2 behind the leader and 5 up on the 3rd place guy and 7th in total points.

we all know about his incredible rookie season where he scored 76 goals, it was a high scoring era and his rookie line comes out to only 62-45-107 adjusted.

62 goals adjsuted is tied for the 22nd best season of all time in terms of goal scoring.

In raw numbers his 76 goals is tied for 5th. And he did this with Housely 2nd in team scoring at 97 points 35 points behind him in team scoring. Zhamnov and Steen were 3rd and 4th with 72 points.

Selanne quite simply is one of the top 10 goal scorers in the history of hockey IMO.
Lemieux, Bossy, Gretzky, both Hulls (Brett and Bobby) say hello, Esposito, Jagr, Bure, Gartner and Ovechkin all say hello.

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01-17-2012, 07:13 PM
  #79
Big Phil
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Originally Posted by jags6868 View Post
Lemieux, Bossy, Gretzky, both Hulls (Brett and Bobby) say hello, Esposito, Jagr, Bure, Gartner and Ovechkin all say hello.
Gartner though? I usually stick up for the guy, but he was more of a consistent 40 goal man than a threat to win the goal scoring title. Not sure I would put Jagr or Bure ahead of him either. Bure just didn't have the legs for it, when you retire at the age he did and still have an injury riddled career you shouldn't be rated ahead of a guy who could crack 700. Plus it isn't as if Bure was miles ahead of Selanne when he was healthy either. Selanne gets the edge for sure.

Jagr is closer IMO, even though he is thought to be better at playmaking.
Top finishes in goals:
Selanne - 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 10
Jagr - 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 6, 9

If you pick Jagr, it isn't a shock or anything.

But Ovechkin needs time to pass Selanne. There were people thinking he could beat Bossy in his 3rd or 4th season when he was sniping all those goals. I say he has a ways to go before we can classify him a better goal scorer than Selanne first. Ovechkin needs to get out of his 20s first and then we can talk.

You forgot a couple though. Howe and Richard are certainly on that list of top 10s. Depending on who you ask Lafleur can certainly flirt with that list too. But other than that, you can build a case for Selanne among the top 10 goal scorers of all time.

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01-17-2012, 11:29 PM
  #80
Hardyvan123
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Originally Posted by jepjepjoo View Post
It's quite simple: NHL.com has a video for every goal since the lockout.
just for fun I decided to look up how selanne ranks in goal scoring since the lockout (aged 35 and older)

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...order_by=goals

He is 15th in goals and 9th in GPG which for 6 1/2 seasons after the age of 35 is simply amazing IMO.

Nevermind what he did before that.

Selanne quite simply is one of the most under rated guys that I come across in the history section.

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01-17-2012, 11:39 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
just for fun I decided to look up how selanne ranks in goal scoring since the lockout (aged 35 and older)

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...order_by=goals

He is 15th in goals and 9th in GPG which for 6 1/2 seasons after the age of 35 is simply amazing IMO.

Nevermind what he did before that.

Selanne quite simply is one of the most under rated guys that I come across in the history section.
Oh Hardy, there any recent player you don't think is underrated by the history section?


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 01-17-2012 at 11:47 PM.
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01-17-2012, 11:44 PM
  #82
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Yeah at this point Selanne is very clearly ahead of Ovechkin in my mind just simply due to longevity. Gartner doesn't really have a prayer in this discussion either. The ones that I think are ahead for sure in my mind are (in no order): Lemieux, Gretzky, Howe, Bobby Hull, Maurice Richard, Bossy, Esposito, Brett Hull.

Ones that you could swing me on: Dionne, Jagr, Lafleur, Beliveau, Morenz, Lalonde, Mahovlich, Charlie Conacher, Geoffrion. Maybe a couple more.

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01-17-2012, 11:50 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
Yeah at this point Selanne is very clearly ahead of Ovechkin in my mind just simply due to longevity. Gartner doesn't really have a prayer in this discussion either. The ones that I think are ahead for sure in my mind are (in no order): Lemieux, Gretzky, Howe, Bobby Hull, Maurice Richard, Bossy, Esposito, Brett Hull.

Ones that you could swing me on: Dionne, Jagr, Lafleur, Beliveau, Morenz, Lalonde, Mahovlich, Charlie Conacher, Geoffrion. Maybe a couple more.
Eh, I don't see how longevity necessarily makes someone a better player. Ovechkin peaked so much higher than Selanne, I take him as a goal scorer. I think Ovechkin maintained his pace long enough to know how good he really was. Bure was a better goal scorer than Selanne too (though Selanne was a better player in terms of overall offense and overall play).

I'd take Charlie Conacher and probably Morenz over Selanne as goal scorers. Not sure about the others you listed. Bill Cook might have a case over Selanne; I haven't looked into it closely.

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01-18-2012, 03:40 AM
  #84
Hardyvan123
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Oh Hardy, there any recent player you don't think is underrated by the history section?
Sure Marty St. Louis get tons of love here.

So does Jagr, well at least from jags6868.

Selanne often gets criticized for what he is not, a great playoff performer, rather than what he was, an extremely excellent sniper for a long period of time.

And for most of that time he didn't have an elite play maker feeding him the puck either.

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01-18-2012, 03:45 AM
  #85
Hardyvan123
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Eh, I don't see how longevity necessarily makes someone a better player. Ovechkin peaked so much higher than Selanne, I take him as a goal scorer. I think Ovechkin maintained his pace long enough to know how good he really was. Bure was a better goal scorer than Selanne too (though Selanne was a better player in terms of overall offense and overall play).

I'd take Charlie Conacher and probably Morenz over Selanne as goal scorers. Not sure about the others you listed. Bill Cook might have a case over Selanne; I haven't looked into it closely.


Longevity and consistency are two extremely important things when viewing or ranking a player IMO. Sometimes when a player like AO has a consistent peak we think of him as better than a guy like Selanne whose peak seasons are spread around a bit and there's nothing wrong with that.

I'm a huge career guy but AO has shown to be the better player, his small warts and all.


Last edited by Hardyvan123: 01-18-2012 at 05:09 AM. Reason: doubled up on words during midnight acid reflux attack
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Old
01-18-2012, 07:21 AM
  #86
Theokritos
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Originally Posted by Reds4Life View Post
I'd love to see this backed up by evidence.
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
I saw both guys play alot and I have no clue where the "considerably better defensively part" comes in comparing to Datsyuk, not a clue.
Looking back at it three days later, I'm a bit staggered myself that I made this rather apodictic statement. The train of thought was something like: In the 80s, the Selke Trophy was still awarded to the best defensive forwards, not to the best two way forwards like today. Which is common knowledge, but of course not enough to support my initial claim. I should have formulated a question instead, like "How good was Jari Kurri defensively in comparison with the Selke winners and contenders of today, considering the stronger focus on defence in his day?" And of course, the real question is: Is Kurri's better defence enough to make up for his offensive shortcomings in comparison with Selšnne? Or the other way round: Is Selšnne's better offense enough to make up for his defensive shortcomings in comparison with Kurri?

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