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Is Couturier the next Stamkos?

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Old
01-18-2012, 08:17 AM
  #101
brucewaynegretzky
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Sean Couturier is all that is hockey. He shall deliver us to the promise land!

COUTURIER! (He also makes for an awesome battle cry!)

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Old
01-18-2012, 09:54 AM
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Giroux isn't going to get any taller, and I doubt he's going to start using a longer twig. Beyond his swashbuckling and sometimes crappy defensive positioning, those are his two biggest problems defensively. He will likey improve some with experience, but there aren't a lot of elite centers his size for a reason.
True there are no good defensive centers Giroux size.

Pavel Datsyuk
Center
Born Jul 20 1978 -- Sverdlovsk, Russia
Height 5.11

Claude Giroux
Center
Born Jan 12 1988 -- Hearst, ONT
Height 5.11

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01-18-2012, 11:47 AM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
True there are no good defensive centers Giroux size.

Pavel Datsyuk
Center
Born Jul 20 1978 -- Sverdlovsk, Russia
Height 5.11

Claude Giroux
Center
Born Jan 12 1988 -- Hearst, ONT
Height 5.11
He said "there aren't a lot," not "there are no." That makes a difference.

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Old
01-18-2012, 01:08 PM
  #104
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I think a lot of people forget that prior to Couturier getting mono, he and Larsson were battling for the #1 overall pick of that draft class. Even ahead of Nugent-Hopkins. I think he's gonna be one of those reliable guys that the coach can count on late in a game for offense or defense.

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01-18-2012, 01:28 PM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
True there are no good defensive centers Giroux size.

Pavel Datsyuk
Richards is another obvious name as far as undersized defensive centers goes. His point is valid though IMO.

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01-18-2012, 03:53 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ORYX View Post
While I think that many on here aren't giving Couturier enough credit for his offensive ability, calling him the next Stamkos is a bit outrageous.

The reason Couturier stuck this year is his defensive game, not his offensive game, HOWEVER, there is a reason he put up back to back 96 point seasons in the QMJHL, his last year having been 96 points in only 58 games.

The kid can score, and having 9 goals at the midway point as a 4th line center is not too shabby. Put him with capable line-mates and I can see him hitting 20 by seasons end.

He will be much better then Mike Fisher. I would argue that he as a ceiling can match Eric Staal's output, while matching Jordan Staals defensive ability, if not bettering Staal defensively.

The kid isnt really a mix, he is already one of the best defensively, and has the offensive ability and instinct to be great there as well, without sacrificing one for the other IMO.
This.

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Old
01-18-2012, 04:20 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
He said "there aren't a lot," not "there are no." That makes a difference.
Not on the internet.

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Old
01-18-2012, 05:53 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
True there are no good defensive centers Giroux size.

Pavel Datsyuk
Center
Born Jul 20 1978 -- Sverdlovsk, Russia
Height 5.11

Claude Giroux
Center
Born Jan 12 1988 -- Hearst, ONT
Height 5.11
Actually, Couturier makes me think of a bigger version of Datsyuk. Maybe less dangle factor, but same great stick and hockey smarts. Tremendous ability to slow the game down.

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01-18-2012, 06:50 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by JackStraw View Post
Actually, Couturier makes me think of a bigger version of Datsyuk. Maybe less dangle factor, but same great stick and hockey smarts. Tremendous ability to slow the game down.
and he just turned 19 .....

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01-18-2012, 08:01 PM
  #110
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Couturier has been on one hell of a streak!

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01-18-2012, 08:04 PM
  #111
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No he is not the next Stamkos. Maybe a Jean Beliveau type player.

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01-18-2012, 08:54 PM
  #112
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Sean Couturier is hockey

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Old
01-18-2012, 09:08 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timonen View Post
Sean Couturier is cannon
Fixed

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Old
01-19-2012, 10:51 AM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
He said "there aren't a lot," not "there are no." That makes a difference.
And that is still not true.

Top defensive forwards in the NHL IMO:
Datsyk (same size)
Zetterberg (same size)
Mike Richards (same size)
Patrice Bergeron (6'1)
Mikko Koivu (6'1)
Jon Toews (6'2)
Ryan Kesler (6'2)
Jordan Staal (6'4)

Lets look at the best of the past 10 years:
Datsyk (5'11)
Madden (5'11)
Lehtinen (6')
Brindamour (6'1)
Peca (5'11)
Yzerman (5'11)
Kris Draper (5'10)

How about Flyers:
Brindamour (6'1)
Dave Poulin (5' 11)
Sami Kapenen (5' 9)
Bobby Clarke (5'10)

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01-19-2012, 11:48 AM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
And that is still not true.

Top defensive forwards in the NHL IMO:
Datsyk (same size)
Zetterberg (same size)
Mike Richards (same size)
Patrice Bergeron (6'1)
Mikko Koivu (6'1)
Jon Toews (6'2)
Ryan Kesler (6'2)
Jordan Staal (6'4)

Lets look at the best of the past 10 years:
Datsyk (5'11)
Madden (5'11)
Lehtinen (6')
Brindamour (6'1)
Peca (5'11)
Yzerman (5'11)
Kris Draper (5'10)

How about Flyers:
Brindamour (6'1)
Dave Poulin (5' 11)
Sami Kapenen (5' 9)
Bobby Clarke (5'10)
Uh...that's not a lot. There are a LOT of players in the NHL, you know.

Edit: many of those listed are taller than Giroux, and the main reason Giroux is at a disadvantage is that he uses a shorter stick. It lets him do fancy things, but doesn't help a lot on defense.


Last edited by Beef Invictus: 01-19-2012 at 12:30 PM.
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Old
01-19-2012, 12:24 PM
  #116
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There are so many good average sized defensive players in the league.

Remember Giroux never has a shot of hitting 100 points in his career ever either.

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01-19-2012, 12:35 PM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Uh...that's not a lot. There are a LOT of players in the NHL, you know.
Selke Winners last 20 years:
Kesler 6'2
Datsyk 5'11
Brind'amour 6'1
Draper 5'10
Lehtinen 6'0
Peca 5'11
Madden 5'11
Yzerman 5'11
Fedorov 6'2
Francis 6'3
Gilmour 5'10
Carbonneau 5'11

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01-19-2012, 12:37 PM
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
There are so many good average sized defensive players in the league.

Remember Giroux never has a shot of hitting 100 points in his career ever either.
My personal favorite, players over 21 are past their prime. Giroux at 23 was old, never going to be more than a 70 point guy, can't score more that 25 goals, etc, etc. Now he is too small to be a good defender.....yet, he is our top PK guy, works the hardest and is the smartest hockey player on the team. Those three put together almost guarantee success as a defensive player later in your career.

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01-19-2012, 12:41 PM
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
Selke Winners last 20 years:
Kesler 6'2
Datsyk 5'11
Brind'amour 6'1
Draper 5'10
Lehtinen 6'0
Peca 5'11
Madden 5'11
Yzerman 5'11
Fedorov 6'2
Francis 6'3
Gilmour 5'10
Carbonneau 5'11
More importantly: Did they use a longer stick? Chances are very good that they did. Giroux uses a short stick for puck handling.

Let's be serious, too...Giroux has shown no glimpse of Selke caliber defensive talent...which makes his size a detriment. If you aren't going to have the brain for it, you might as well have the reach to make up for it.

You've chosen the defensive elite, the players who just "get" it. Giroux isn't in that category.

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01-19-2012, 12:51 PM
  #120
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My point is, Giroux doesn't have (at this time) the innate defensive skill that great defensive forwards show. On top of that, he lacks the size or reach to compensate accordingly.

It isn't necessary to be big to be good defensively, but if you aren't naturally good on defense (like Giroux at this time) then bigger size and reach help. Giroux lacks that.

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01-19-2012, 12:51 PM
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
More importantly: Did they use a longer stick? Chances are very good that they did. Giroux uses a short stick for puck handling.

Let's be serious, too...Giroux has shown no glimpse of Selke caliber defensive talent...which makes his size a detriment. If you aren't going to have the brain for it, you might as well have the reach to make up for it.

You've chosen the defensive elite, the players who just "get" it. Giroux isn't in that category.
There was a Giroux for Selke thread though...

And while I agree that he will likely never win a Selke or perhaps even come close, I do think he's already above average defensively and has room to become great/borderline elite.

He was very good defensively for us prior to this year and even this year he's been a great PKer and early on he was playing solid defense.

He's struggling a little defensively recently in his first year "shouldering the load", but I think he will only continue to grow and get better. He's used to being able to rely on others and w/ Jagr out there with him, that hasn't been the case this year.

I don't expect that we'll have to move him back to wing for defensive purposes, I expect him to improve. As I said, he was solid defensively prior to this year, he will regain that form once again.

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01-19-2012, 12:55 PM
  #122
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It's clear that he's definitely going to be better than Briere...not like that's a high bar to set :laugh. He isn't offense-only, but he's still got a ways to go.

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01-19-2012, 01:20 PM
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
It's clear that he's definitely going to be better than Briere...not like that's a high bar to set :laugh. He isn't offense-only, but he's still got a ways to go.
Who would have thought Steve Yzerman would win a Selke when he was 23. With Giroux' work ethic and mind, he is capable of shutting people down. IMO - he has been weak defensively this year for two reasons:

1. He is giving up plenty of turnovers with blind passes, forcing things
2. He is counted on to produce offensively first. Defense second.

I do believe Giroux has Selke ability. Giroux is much better on D then most of the elite offensive players in the league. He is a very special player.

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01-19-2012, 01:27 PM
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
Who would have thought Steve Yzerman would win a Selke when he was 23. With Giroux' work ethic and mind, he is capable of shutting people down. IMO - he has been weak defensively this year for two reasons:

1. He is giving up plenty of turnovers with blind passes, forcing things
2. He is counted on to produce offensively first. Defense second.

I do believe Giroux has Selke ability. Giroux is much better on D then most of the elite offensive players in the league. He is a very special player.
Part of the reason he looked so good last year on defense was Carter. If Giroux has Selke ability, it hasn't shown through...so long as Toews, Richards, and potentially even Couturier are in the league I don't see him getting serious consideration, unless he improves a lot. Hell, Jagr's GAON/60 is better than Giroux's. Jagr also has a +11 on the team compared to Giroux's +2, or Hartnell's +18. Those +/- stats line up nicely with the fact that other teams have been scoring a lot while Giroux is on the ice.

Most disturbingly, Briere's defensive numbers are higher than Giroux's, but I would bet that has a lot to do with Lavi keeping Briere out of situations that require good defense.

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01-20-2012, 12:38 AM
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
Who would have thought Steve Yzerman would win a Selke when he was 23. With Giroux' work ethic and mind, he is capable of shutting people down. IMO - he has been weak defensively this year for two reasons:

1. He is giving up plenty of turnovers with blind passes, forcing things
2. He is counted on to produce offensively first. Defense second.

I do believe Giroux has Selke ability. Giroux is much better on D then most of the elite offensive players in the league. He is a very special player.
While I doubt that there's a Selke award in the future for Giroux, I agree with most of the rest. He has the compete level and the general hockey awareness to become a lot better however, but that means he needs to commit himself a lot more to the defensive side of the game. Not taking so many chances on getting the play going offensively, making risky passes... maybe stop cheating a little bit on the backcheck.

Can he do that? Sure, but that would most likely also mean you won't see him scoring so many points. That's usually what happens when a player starts to focus more on defense after all. Very, very few players are stellar at both ends of the ice by talent alone.

He's in a tough situation this season. He's our go-to guy on offense, and he is also our most important center defensively. That's not really fair on him, expecting him to be able to handle that at this stage of his career. Hopefully Schenn and Couturier will be able to step up and take on more responsible roles already next season, after all, the way we're set up Giroux shouldn't have to develop into a Selke candidate.

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