Based on dominance versus his peers and from reading tons on the opinions of those who know more than I do. IIRC Cook is the only Ranger to ever lead the NHL in scoring and is arguably the 6th greatest NHL right winger of all time. If Brad Park had played his whole career with the Rangers Leetchie (as much as I love him) would probably only be the 2nd greatest Rangers defenseman of all time. Yes Leetch won 2 Norris's to Park's 0 but he finished 1st runner up 6 times to a couple of guys named Orr and Potvin, the greatest player of all time and one of the maybe top 5 defensemen of all time.[/QUOTE]
Totally agree with this, having seen Park play on both the Rangers and the Bruins, went to college in New England in 1979, he was a better defender and more physical.
Park was physical and played angry. He would definitely be up there had he stayed, as would Ratelle. YToo bad. Ratelle was an elegant, highly skilled player. Phil The Whale Esposito. Emile completely lost it at that point in time.
Yea def not any of the 3 you mentioned...and I started a thread like this over a year ago I think. IMO the only person not up there who should be is Jean Ratelle. 6th in games played, 2nd in goals, 3rd in assists, 3rd in points to name a few.
Some people put Park ahead of Leetch - I'm not one of them. You can say what you want about Orr & Park, but Coffey, Bourque, Stevens, & Chelios weren't lightweights either.
Conn Smythe (1st U.S. player to win)
Stanley Cup
Norris x 2
Probably undeniably the best U.S. born defenseman ever
Personally, I'd put Leetch in the top 10 or 15 to ever play defense. Can't say I'd make that same judgement about Cook (obviously, never saw him play). Still, it's hard to compare eras where that much time has gone by and how much the game and players have changed. Impossible, really.
That's the kind of talk that makes your argument moot.
Hadfield was our Captain and 1st 50 goal scorer back in the day...we should have won the cup except for Ratelle getting his ankle broke late in the season .
Some of the names that are being put out there would be more acceptable for a Rangers Hall of Fame or Ring of Honor type recognition than retiring a number...to me that honor should be reserved for greatness...I love Graves but really don't think he should have had his number retired.
graves has his number retired for the same reason callahan will have his number retired if this group of rangers wins a cup. yeah he didn't light up the scoreboard his whole career but graves played exactly the style that you want out of a hockey player. he put himself on the line every night for his teammates, and everyone respected the hell out of that.
I vote for Brad Park to be a candidate. He was integral to the Rangers teams of the early 70's. They were a fantastic team, and if it wasn't for Orr, Park would have been best defenseman for a few years.
This guy knew how to quarterback a powerplay, feeding Ratelle, Gilbert and Hadfield. Had a great presence on the blueline. Loved watching him skate. Best hipchecker in the NHL at the time, bar none. Fought too, and won a lot of them.
In Rangers history that is correct, but in hockey history that is incorrect. If Ratelle hadn't been hurt and they had won in 72, then it would be Park all the way. Presumably, the Espo trade never happens in this scenario.
It's funny. Those early 70s teams played decades before I was born, but the Espo trade and the fact that those teams never won a cup still make me really angry. That was a homegrown Rangers team featuring four HoF members plus Hadfield and might have had eternal greatness in Ranger lore if not for Ratelle's injury. Of course, if the officiating was a bit tighter in the 70s, then maybe they beat the bullies in 74.
In Rangers history that is correct, but in hockey history that is incorrect. If Ratelle hadn't been hurt and they had won in 72, then it would be Park all the way. Presumably, the Espo trade never happens in this scenario.
It's funny. Those early 70s teams played decades before I was born, but the Espo trade and the fact that those teams never won a cup still make me really angry. That was a homegrown Rangers team featuring four HoF members plus Hadfield and might have had eternal greatness in Ranger lore if not for Ratelle's injury. Of course, if the officiating was a bit tighter in the 70s, then maybe they beat the bullies in 74.
In Rangers history that is correct, but in hockey history that is incorrect. If Ratelle hadn't been hurt and they had won in 72, then it would be Park all the way. Presumably, the Espo trade never happens in this scenario.
It's funny. Those early 70s teams played decades before I was born, but the Espo trade and the fact that those teams never won a cup still make me really angry. That was a homegrown Rangers team featuring four HoF members plus Hadfield and might have had eternal greatness in Ranger lore if not for Ratelle's injury. Of course, if the officiating was a bit tighter in the 70s, then maybe they beat the bullies in 74.
Sorry but, Leetch > Park.
Leetch is:
#70 all time NHL scoring.
# 8 all time NHL defensemen scoring.
#2 all time American NHL defenseman scoring.
17 seasons as a Ranger player
Most assists Rangers history
Most playoff points Rangers history
2nd all time points Rangers history
Calder
Norris x 2
Conn Smythe
Stanley Cup
Captain
Hall of Fame
US Hall of Fame
And these are just his NHL achievements.
There are no ifs or buts in these discussions. They're cut and dry. Black and white.
Park wasn't here long enough. He didn't accomplish enough as a Ranger. Whereas Leetch accomplished just about as much as you possibly could. Only place he fell shy was passing Gilbert for all time Ranger leader in points and winning a league MVP.
#70 all time NHL scoring.
# 8 all time NHL defensemen scoring.
#2 all time American NHL defenseman scoring.
17 seasons as a Ranger player
Most assists Rangers history
Most playoff points Rangers history
2nd all time points Rangers history
Calder
Norris x 2
Conn Smythe
Stanley Cup
Captain
Hall of Fame
US Hall of Fame
And these are just his NHL achievements.
There are no ifs or buts in these discussions. They're cut and dry. Black and white.
Park wasn't here long enough. He didn't accomplish enough as a Ranger. Whereas Leetch accomplished just about as much as you possibly could. Only place he fell shy was passing Gilbert for all time Ranger leader in points and winning a league MVP.
You can't just look at stats, especially with players from different era's but if you do Park's numbers aren't all that different than Leetch's
Park 213-683-896 PIMS 1429
Leetch 247-781-1028 PIMS 571
I'm one of the handful of people on this board who watched both play and Park was better than Leetch, not by a lot but he was better at both ends of the ice and much, much more physical.
If I was starting a team and could only pick one of them it's Park all the way.
Last edited by NHRangerfan: 01-19-2012 at 12:41 PM.
Reason: fat fingers
Park wasn't here long enough. He didn't accomplish enough as a Ranger.
Apparently you didn't get very far into my post. By that I mean you didn't read the very first line: "In Rangers history that is correct, but in hockey history that is incorrect."
dressed as a back-up due to injury. don't think he ever played in a game.
Cook and Boucher, Park and Ratelle as players and
Tex as owner, and the one to give us the Rangers identity.
There was no such thing as back-up goaltenders back when Lester Patrick was the coach. The goalie got hurt in the game (this was during the Finals) and Lester Patrick played the rest of the game. Gave up one goal in regulation and the Rangers won it in overtime, going on to win their second Stanley Cup.
Lester Patrick is one of the builders of hockey. It's a shame that the division the Rangers play in is no longer named for him.
Just wondering if anyone is aware of any reasons why the Rangers organization haven't honored the following players with a rafter banner.
Phil Esposito #77
Gump Worsley #1
Brad Park #2
True, #1 and 2 are already retired for Giacomin and Leetch, respectively. But the team has already retired #9 for both Andy Bathgate and Adam Graves. No reason why Worsley and Park (both HOFers) shouldn't likewise be honored for immortality in MSG.
I'd retire Matteau before Espo....
I honestly think Lundqvist will be the next...unless they do something for #99
For anyone that wants a written account of the Rangers early history from someone who was there, Frank Boucher wrote a great book called "When the Rangers Were Young".
Its mostly about his personal life, but accounts for everything that happened, in detail. Detailed description of the players around pro hockey. Detailed descriptions about the Rangers payers especially.
Detailed description about what the city was like. What the time was like. How the Rangers came to be. What Tex Rickard was like. What Conn Smythe was like. Lester Patrick. Bunny (as he called him) and Bill Cook, Ivan Johnson...all of them. Their personalities, everything.
If you really want to learn about the early decades of the Rangers, this is the book to get.
Its somewhat rare. Out of print. Only used beat up copies circulating.
Worth every penny, despite whatever condition the books are in.
1) Espo gets blasted for being a part of one of the most controversial trades in NYR history.
Don't know why that should be an indictment on his part. Did players trade themselves back then? Emile Francis gets mentioned for being honored by the team. Yet, he was the GM who triggered that trade. But nonetheless, Espo gets the blame for this? Such sterling logic....
All I know is.... in Espo's 4 complete seasons with the Rangers, he led the team in scoring all 4 times. He was the best player on the team during the latter 1970s. Without Espo and J.D., the Rangers do not get to the SCF in '79.
2) Esposito vs Messier
In a number of ways, there are some parallels between Espo and Messier. Both players enjoyed their prime seasons and won multiple cups with other teams before coming to the Big Apple. Both players led the NY franchise to very brief spurts of championship caliber success that dissipated away almost as quickly as it arrived.
The main differences that I see between Espo and Mess is:
A) the former's '79 team came up short in the SCF to the Habs. The latter's '94 squad won it all.
B) Mark played 10 seasons with NY, while Espo played all or parts of 6. Of course, that has to be balanced out by the fact that Mess' 2nd go-around with the team consisted of 4 very forgettable non-playoff seasons and Moose was hanging on as a shell of his former self. Espo could have likewise padded his Ranger resume with a couple more mediocre seasons, if he was so inclined. But he hung it up before wearing out his welcome.
I respect everyone else's opinion, if they think that a Stanley Cup win elevates Messier to retired number immortality, while a runner-up effort relegates Espo to the backburner. But saying things like "Espo sucks" while Messier is God in comparison.... that's more than a little ridiculous.
3) Where's the love for the '79 Rangers?
Gilbert and Giacomin represent the '72 SC finalists. Messier, Graves, Leetch, and Richter are reminders of the '94 champs. But there's no one honored from the '79 team. From that cinderella squad, Espo would be the most logical choice for a banner.
4) Gump, Park, and Ratelle are HOFers too.
No one seriously disputes the idea that Gump Worsley, Brad Park, and Jean Ratelle are HOF caliber. Yet, because they played for multiple teams during their careers, they've never quite racked up the numbers with one team that would have made them no-brainers for jersey number retirement. In each of the above 3 cases, they have all spent the majority of their careers with New York. Even though they have all achieved notable success with other franchises, it's not as if their accomplishments in a Ranger uniform was anything to sneeze at. In fact, take away the stats that they racked up while they were in NY,.... and maybe they don't get inducted into the hall. Doesn't that fact alone merit consideration for having their number retired by the Rangers?
