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Old
01-19-2012, 08:44 AM
  #176
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Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
Our size needs? We have two small forwards after Gomez is gone. TWO!

Who cares about size when it's a PPG player?
He won't be a ppg on the habs.

And are you honestly saying size/grit isn't an issue for the habs?

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Old
01-19-2012, 08:49 AM
  #177
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Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
Our size needs? We have two small forwards after Gomez is gone. TWO!

Who cares about size when it's a PPG player?
Gotta agree with that.

Once Gomez is gone, we don't have a size need. Actually I don't think this is an issue we really have right now, except possibly for 1D. Hopefully Tinordi can get there...

Out of that, I think we can stop worrying so much about size and just get players that CAN FINISH!

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Old
01-19-2012, 08:51 AM
  #178
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Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
Zero chance that Eberle fails.

On the same boat, I have no idea how Harding would far but he's definitely got #1 potential, if he's not there already.
Sorry I should have clarified. By Montreal fans/media standard. Sorry but I can't imagine Eberle putting up the 80pts you say he would on this team. He's relied upon more than almost anyone in Edmonton on a very young team that isn't even expected to win anything. He can take tons of chances he normally wouldn't be able to take on Montreal, plus we all know players of that caliber usually drop off in terms of production on Montreal and it isn't like Eberle is small but if the new direction is to go bigger I have to believe if Price was in the mix they'd be looking for an equally talented but bigger player.

Not saying he would fail in the legitimate meaning of the word, but by the standards of our media and fans.. if he had like a 50-55pt season it would be a nightmare, and lord knows we'd have to sign him up long term for a big number.

However I do feel Harding could easily fail here (in the real sense of failure) as plenty of other goalies have, and subsequently be run out of town. All in all I could see it turning into a nightmare in general.

You don't pick top 5, take a goalie when your needs are a big center, but then trade the guy once he's been a much more stable goalie in recent memory and is looking to be one of the best young franchise D in the NHL for years to come. By the time Price realistically enters his Prime he'll have played in the NHL for like a decade. I don't see very many other goalies with that kind of skill set. If he's doing it at this age I can only imagine where the experience and skill will take him. At this point trading him would be a PR nightmare barring a guy like Giroux coming back the other way.

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Old
01-19-2012, 08:55 AM
  #179
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Originally Posted by icerocket View Post
He won't be a ppg on the habs.

And are you honestly saying size/grit isn't an issue for the habs?
If we have:

Cole-DD-Patch
Bourque-Plek-Gionta
AK-Eller-Moen
?-White-Blunden

I don't think we really lack size/grit on forwards. DD and Gionta are small, yes, Plek is not huge but he's not small either. The rest is all more than fine. Get a bigger 4th line center/winger (or maybe Enqvist can keep improving, he's doing good in Hamilton now, but the last time he was around let's say that "grit" wasn't a quality he had...), ok, but on the first 3 lines we have 5/6 big wingers. You could replace one for a player of Eberle's talent any time.

That being said, I'm not for trading Price.

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Old
01-19-2012, 09:00 AM
  #180
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Originally Posted by icerocket View Post
Trading Price or Subban is dumb.

Everyone else is tradable.
Why? I read comments like that every day here and I just don't get it. We need a dominant #1 center and there is a steep price to pay for that.

The only reason we can't really trade Price is that we've been trading away his competition internally since he's been with us so we don't have anyone to replace him.

As for Subban, some would fear another "Chelios-Savard" trade. That's a legit concern but the big problem with that trade was that Savard was way past his prime and Chelios was a God who went on to play another solid 15 yrs. If you trade Subban, it has to be for another young gun (RNH for example).

I'm on the fence with Subban. Still not sure what career to expect out of him. When Chelios made the team way back, he had a huge impact and I don't remember having doubts that he would be a Norris contender. The guy had a nasty edge to his game.

Younger people on this board don't remember how tough the Habs were in the 80's. Corson, Chelios, Lemieux, Nilan. Even Gainey and Robinson and guys like McPhee and Skrudland were not easily pushed around. Wasn't there like an insane stretch of playoff years that the Bruins just could not win against us? Seems like a distant memory now.

The point is we should look at all offers on the table. My main concern is that I don't want PG (or Gainey) involved in that process. I'm ok with Timmins but I share concerns with others that he would draft a D or goalie as a top-5 pick again.

I don't agree with the "best player" available mentality when it comes to the draft. Our clear need is a dominant C with size. Unless Bobby Orr is available, you don't waste your pick on anybody but a forward. Forsberg would be a nice pick for us. Not sure if he can play C.

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Old
01-19-2012, 09:00 AM
  #181
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I'm see us moving the following players at the deadline:

AK46, Moen, Gill, Campoli and Possibly Weber. I expect we can get (at least from a competent GM: 3 2nd rounders and a 4/5th rounder. We use the picks to either assemble packages for higher picks or to simply restock our prospect pool. Last time Timmins got more than 1 pick in the top 60, he drafted McD, Patches and Subban in a universally weak draft. Let him works his magic with some really high quality picks.

A skeleton line-up for next season (XXX being positions that need to be filled for a competitive, possibly contending line-up)

Patches - XXX - Cole
XXX - Pleks - Gionta/DD
Bourque - Eller - Leblanc
White - XXX - Blunden

XXX - Subban
Markov - Gorges
Emelin - Kaberle
Weber/Diaz

Price/Budaj

In all likelihood, The two and half stars line will remain intact and Bourque will pencil in the top-6. That being said, if we want to be competitive, we need a real 1st line center, a #1 D and a top-6 forward. Engqvist and Palushaj may be given opportunities to stay with the big club, though it may be a while before we can fix all the wholes on this team. On the plus side, most of our players still have a few years of good hockey left in them and we have a solid young core developing, so this shouldn't be a massive rebuild. Lets just accrue picks and see what Timmins can get us.

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01-19-2012, 09:09 AM
  #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Smurf View Post
I'm see us moving the following players at the deadline:

AK46, Moen, Gill, Campoli and Possibly Weber. I expect we can get (at least from a competent GM: 3 2nd rounders and a 4/5th rounder.
If Gauthier trades AK46 for a 2nd round pick, I'll be really mad. A 2nd round is what a guy like Moore is worth at the trade deadline. AK is worth a lot more than that.

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Old
01-19-2012, 09:10 AM
  #183
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Originally Posted by neofury View Post
Sorry I should have clarified. By Montreal fans/media standard. Sorry but I can't imagine Eberle putting up the 80pts you say he would on this team. He's relied upon more than almost anyone in Edmonton on a very young team that isn't even expected to win anything. He can take tons of chances he normally wouldn't be able to take on Montreal, plus we all know players of that caliber usually drop off in terms of production on Montreal and it isn't like Eberle is small but if the new direction is to go bigger I have to believe if Price was in the mix they'd be looking for an equally talented but bigger player.

Not saying he would fail in the legitimate meaning of the word, but by the standards of our media and fans.. if he had like a 50-55pt season it would be a nightmare, and lord knows we'd have to sign him up long term for a big number.

However I do feel Harding could easily fail here (in the real sense of failure) as plenty of other goalies have, and subsequently be run out of town. All in all I could see it turning into a nightmare in general.

You don't pick top 5, take a goalie when your needs are a big center, but then trade the guy once he's been a much more stable goalie in recent memory and is looking to be one of the best young franchise D in the NHL for years to come. By the time Price realistically enters his Prime he'll have played in the NHL for like a decade. I don't see very many other goalies with that kind of skill set. If he's doing it at this age I can only imagine where the experience and skill will take him. At this point trading him would be a PR nightmare barring a guy like Giroux coming back the other way.
Eberle only plays 16-minutes a night. He's actually 7th on the team in ES TOI behind Gagner, Smyth, Horcoff, Hall, Nuge, and Hemsky.

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Old
01-19-2012, 09:10 AM
  #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patccmoi View Post
If Gauthier trades AK46 for a 2nd round pick, I'll be really mad. A 2nd round is what a guy like Moore is worth at the trade deadline. AK is worth a lot more than that.
so better lose him for nothing?

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Old
01-19-2012, 09:11 AM
  #185
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Originally Posted by Patccmoi View Post
Gotta agree with that.

Once Gomez is gone, we don't have a size need. Actually I don't think this is an issue we really have right now, except possibly for 1D. Hopefully Tinordi can get there...

Out of that, I think we can stop worrying so much about size and just get players that CAN FINISH!
No size need? Why are you ignoring our defense?

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Old
01-19-2012, 09:11 AM
  #186
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Originally Posted by Patccmoi View Post
If Gauthier trades AK46 for a 2nd round pick, I'll be really mad. A 2nd round is what a guy like Moore is worth at the trade deadline. AK is worth a lot more than that.
But Dominic Moore is actually the better player in the playoffs...

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Old
01-19-2012, 09:13 AM
  #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Smurf View Post
I'm see us moving the following players at the deadline:

AK46, Moen, Gill, Campoli and Possibly Weber. I expect we can get (at least from a competent GM: 3 2nd rounders and a 4/5th rounder. We use the picks to either assemble packages for higher picks or to simply restock our prospect pool. Last time Timmins got more than 1 pick in the top 60, he drafted McD, Patches and Subban in a universally weak draft. Let him works his magic with some really high quality picks.
Yes and it has to be at the deadline, not before. Those picks will move up one round as we get close to the deadline. There is no point trading right now.

Let's all turn the TV off for the next month or so. That will accomplish two things:

1) It will be less painful for us as fans.

2) With RDS ratings plummeting, Molson will freak out and start conducting proper interviews to replace PG before the deadline.

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Old
01-19-2012, 09:17 AM
  #188
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Originally Posted by DenverHabsFan View Post
Why? I read comments like that every day here and I just don't get it. We need a dominant #1 center and there is a steep price to pay for that.

The only reason we can't really trade Price is that we've been trading away his competition internally since he's been with us so we don't have anyone to replace him.

As for Subban, some would fear another "Chelios-Savard" trade. That's a legit concern but the big problem with that trade was that Savard was way past his prime and Chelios was a God who went on to play another solid 15 yrs. If you trade Subban, it has to be for another young gun (RNH for example).

I'm on the fence with Subban. Still not sure what career to expect out of him. When Chelios made the team way back, he had a huge impact and I don't remember having doubts that he would be a Norris contender. The guy had a nasty edge to his game.

Younger people on this board don't remember how tough the Habs were in the 80's. Corson, Chelios, Lemieux, Nilan. Even Gainey and Robinson and guys like McPhee and Skrudland were not easily pushed around. Wasn't there like an insane stretch of playoff years that the Bruins just could not win against us? Seems like a distant memory now.

The point is we should look at all offers on the table. My main concern is that I don't want PG (or Gainey) involved in that process. I'm ok with Timmins but I share concerns with others that he would draft a D or goalie as a top-5 pick again.

I don't agree with the "best player" available mentality when it comes to the draft. Our clear need is a dominant C with size. Unless Bobby Orr is available, you don't waste your pick on anybody but a forward. Forsberg would be a nice pick for us. Not sure if he can play C.
the next Draft has alot of good D.
so unless having top2 picks, the habs will pick a D.
in the top 10 NA ranking, 7 of them are D

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Old
01-19-2012, 09:29 AM
  #189
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Great title. About time that somebody put up a rational thread here.
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Originally Posted by Habs Junkie View Post
I'm just wondering are any of you "tankers" season ticket holders?
I hope not. It would have sucked to have watched this club over the last 15 years or so.
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
I'm very afraid of what gauthier might do at the deadline. Not that his trades up til now haven't been good, or at the very least passable, but one can do stupid things when he's about to lose his job.
I agree. Desperate men do stupid things. He's already saddled us with Kaberle and the Bourque trade was another act of desperation.
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
How is he going to lose his job exactly? Gauthier and Molson both know this is going to be a process and the team is DOA. Do you think they would have traded Cammalleri for that package if they weren't looking at the long haul? The 2nd round pick is the most valuable piece.

Gainey was allowed to **** the bed for years and never got fired, don't expect Gauthier to be sweating bullets anytime soon.
PG should be shown the door. Molson didn't hire him in the first place so he can start with a clean slate.

The fact that PG was able to trade Cammy for another 30 year old makes me extremely nervous though. How much of that decision was Molson a part of? Does he just stay in the background and let PG make the moves or is he a meddler? Time will tell I guess.
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Chicago sucked for many years, I think they missed the playoffs more often than not in the 1990's.

They picked 14th in 2003, 3rd in 2004, 7th in 2005, 3rd in 2006, 1st in 2007 and 11th in 2008.

Anybody that it GM of this team next summer will make moves to spend to the cap and will want to be a playoff team next year. Any thoughts otherwise are dillusional.
That may be true but it all comes down to ownership. If the owner is willing to rebuild then we can do it. It's up to him.
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Originally Posted by Joe Cole View Post
A caller at 990 said something interesting, he said he blames Geoff Molson. He went on to say why, which I cannot remember but it made me think.....

If Geoff Molson does not do something to change the leadership and the direction the leader points the team to, then Molson is as guilty of the results as the General Manager and his staff.

And...who works for the in the Habs front office anymore? Besides Timmons... are there any others with experience and results? Doesn't this team deserve a team of hockey people with experience.
An organization is only as good as it's ownership. If ownership is weak then you're going to get weak management. Gillette seemed to be a pretty good guy actually, Gainey was given an opportunity to put his print on the club and for a while it looked like he'd assembled a decent team. Unfortunately, it ultimately didn't work and then he went off the deep end with some of his moves.

I hope and pray that Molson is actually interested in winning a cup. Moreover, I hope he's smart enough to realize that the club needs to be blown up in order to accomplish that goal.

If he's another Harold Ballard or if he's foolish enough to think that we're a contending team right now, then we're toast.

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Old
01-19-2012, 09:29 AM
  #190
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Originally Posted by chewBACHa View Post
the next Draft has alot of good D.
so unless having top2 picks, the habs will pick a D.
in the top 10 NA ranking, 7 of them are D
If we can't get one of Yakupov, Grigorenko or Forsberg and draft a high-caliber D instead, then we have to consider paying the price and trade to fill the need at C. Our pool of prospects on D is interesting but we have no top-3 forwards in the pipeline.

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Old
01-19-2012, 09:32 AM
  #191
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You don't improve your offence by crippling your defense and goaltending. That's just completely backwards, especially considering that #1 defensemen, and especially #1 goalies, are much harder to find and take longer to develop than #1 centers.

If you trade Price this year and draft a goalie in the second round, you might expect him to play his first game with us in 5-6 years, and be in his prime in 8-9 years. Meanwhile, if you draft a high quality center, he could be ready for #1 duties in 5 years.

We all know defense and goaltending win championships. Trading Price or Subban flies in the face of reason.

Seriously, defense and goaltending >>>>> offense. Look at Tampa Bay. How is having good forwards but terrible D and goaltending working out for them? Now look at the Bruins. How did not having a legit #1 C work out for them last year?

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01-19-2012, 09:37 AM
  #192
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I don't think people realize we're 2-3 losses away max from being in 2nd to last or 3rd to last. This isn't one of those "push for the playoff" moments imo. That ship has long sailed. It's one of those "get a high pick, sell off UFA and retool" moments.

Now obviously if the Habs go 10-0-0 over their next 10 my mind might change, I believe this team has underperformed vastly considering their talent and makeup, mistakes and distractions were made and it didn't help the case. However it's time for a reality check. No offense to Natey, Coldplay & co, I admire their optimism for the playoffs, I just don't see it happening. If we end up in the lottery it's going to be one hell of an exciting draft. Imagine we pick top 3 or even 1st? Holy ****, HFboards would crash if we got Grigorenko or Yakupov.
If the ship hasn't sailed, it's very close. We really needed to win last night's game as it was basically a 4 pointer with a club we're chasing. If we're going to make the playoffs (and that possibility is looking more and more remote) then we'd really have to run the table this week.
Quote:
Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
I'm going to get massively flamed for this but I'd seriously consider seeing what we could get for Carey Price. If we could get a young impact player (like a Jordan Eberle), I would take the chance on moving him and trying to sign Josh Harding when he hits UFA on July 1st (I'd trade a conditional 7th or something for his rights early, just so I could get first bid on him before Tampa Bay tries something with him - offer him a deal he can't refuse - something like $15M/5-years).
Hate the idea of trading Price and I don't think it makes much sense to deal away our younger players for those of another team. Moreover, Price is better than Eberle and there's no way I make that trade.

RNH on the other hand might be worth it. He's 18 years old and plays center. He looks like he'll be an actual superstar in this league. If he was offered up (and there's almost no chance he would be) then that would be a guy I'd seriously consider doing it for. Eberle is great and he'll do really well with that group but RNH I think is going to be the main guy on that team.

Anyways, we're not likely to get anywhere near what Price is worth and so I don't see how trading him makes all that much sense. Besides we'd be filling one hole and adding another. And the worst part of dealing him would be that his best years are still to come. We've spent a lot of time developing him. There'd be nothing worse than to develop a player like that only to let him walk and succeed somewhere else. I think we'd really regret it in the long run.

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Old
01-19-2012, 09:37 AM
  #193
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Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
Well we'd have Budaj and Dubnyk in reserve, so I'd be comfortable so long as it's not the 82-game injury he had last year. Besides that, he's never missed any serious amount of time due to injury. A few games here or there.


If you look at it as Price for Eberle + Harding, it's not so sideways.

Harding might be a step down from Price, but he's not that big of a step down. Eberle would be our best and most productive forward instantly. So it would be a sideways move in that both would be our best player - but Price might be a little easier to replace then the chance of getting a PPG player.
Harding has been injured each of the past 3 years playing as a back up and missed all of last season. Hip injury the year before that and the ever mysterious upper body injury this season. I wouldnt touch that guy. It wouldnt be sideways it would be worse you would end up with Budaj Dubnyk.

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01-19-2012, 09:39 AM
  #194
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No size need? Why are you ignoring our defense?
Why are you ignoring the fact that I said except for 1D...? We need to keep Emelin and add one more big rough D, likely from a UFA, or eventually Tinordi. If we add 2 great, but I think our 'need' is 1.

But the main reason why I was talking about offense was that the discussion was for Eberle, and he would not be replacing a D-man.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chewBACHa
so better lose him for nothing?
No, better get a GM that can actually sell AK for something more than a 2nd round pick... I'm sure there will be a team going in the playoff lacking scoring that would be willing to give more than that for AK if we play it right.

Imo AK needs to be either signed before the deadline or traded, I wouldn't want to risk losing him for nothing because he has value.

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01-19-2012, 09:43 AM
  #195
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Pleky has to be used to get a bigger center, ie: Stasny/Getzlaf/Staal.
I don't believe we should completely rebuild since we have been adding longterm contracts left and right, so adding a young key center piece should be part of the plan, since DD is proving to be one hell of a player(proved me wrong). Something along the line of Pleky Kostitsyn/ couple of picks could possibly be sufficient

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01-19-2012, 09:47 AM
  #196
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Originally Posted by DenverHabsFan View Post
If we can't get one of Yakupov, Grigorenko or Forsberg and draft a high-caliber D instead, then we have to consider paying the price and trade to fill the need at C. Our pool of prospects on D is interesting but we have no top-3 forwards in the pipeline.
I prefer trading down to get another draft pick and select Galchenyuk, Gaunce, Hertl, Faksa instead of another defensive prospect.

I really hope for one of the Big 3 (and maybe Galchenyuk if he comes back a shows he's still a Top end talent)

But we really really really don't need another D prospect.

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01-19-2012, 09:49 AM
  #197
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Great title. About time that somebody put up a rational thread here.

I hope not. It would have sucked to have watched this club over the last 15 years or so.

I agree. Desperate men do stupid things. He's already saddled us with Kaberle and the Bourque trade was another act of desperation.

PG should be shown the door. Molson didn't hire him in the first place so he can start with a clean slate.

The fact that PG was able to trade Cammy for another 30 year old makes me extremely nervous though. How much of that decision was Molson a part of? Does he just stay in the background and let PG make the moves or is he a meddler? Time will tell I guess.

That may be true but it all comes down to ownership. If the owner is willing to rebuild then we can do it. It's up to him.

An organization is only as good as it's ownership. If ownership is weak then you're going to get weak management. Gillette seemed to be a pretty good guy actually, Gainey was given an opportunity to put his print on the club and for a while it looked like he'd assembled a decent team. Unfortunately, it ultimately didn't work and then he went off the deep end with some of his moves.

I hope and pray that Molson is actually interested in winning a cup. Moreover, I hope he's smart enough to realize that the club needs to be blown up in order to accomplish that goal.

If he's another Harold Ballard or if he's foolish enough to think that we're a contending team right now, then we're toast.
No owner will intentionally run his business into the ground. It's a myth that it's ever happened before, most times teams had multiple lottery picks the teams were either very poorly run(GM and owner) or basically bankrupt.

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01-19-2012, 09:51 AM
  #198
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Originally Posted by Patccmoi View Post

No, better get a GM that can actually sell AK for something more than a 2nd round pick... I'm sure there will be a team going in the playoff lacking scoring that would be willing to give more than that for AK if we play it right.

Imo AK needs to be either signed before the deadline or traded, I wouldn't want to risk losing him for nothing because he has value.
With AK hopefully the timing is good, he is struggling right now, if we can get him on one of his 10 points in 8 games tears before the deadline it would be the perfect time to move him, THEN we might get a 1st or top young player.

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01-19-2012, 10:01 AM
  #199
DenverHabsFan
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Originally Posted by Skarjak View Post
You don't improve your offence by crippling your defense and goaltending. That's just completely backwards, especially considering that #1 defensemen, and especially #1 goalies, are much harder to find and take longer to develop than #1 centers.

If you trade Price this year and draft a goalie in the second round, you might expect him to play his first game with us in 5-6 years, and be in his prime in 8-9 years. Meanwhile, if you draft a high quality center, he could be ready for #1 duties in 5 years.

We all know defense and goaltending win championships. Trading Price or Subban flies in the face of reason.

Seriously, defense and goaltending >>>>> offense. Look at Tampa Bay. How is having good forwards but terrible D and goaltending working out for them? Now look at the Bruins. How did not having a legit #1 C work out for them last year?
I don't disagree but if it's so easy to fill the need at C, how come we haven't had a legit #1 C for 15 years? Plus, I agree with you only when it comes to D. Here's why:

I'm going to get killed on this board for saying this but drafting Price at #5 that year was a monumental mistake. It was a good draft year and we had two good goalies at the time. That pick made no sense. We could have filled other needs.

Since then, the organization (and a good portion of the fanbase) has tried to justify that pick by getting out of the way any sort of internal competition at that position. Instead of having a solid duo, now we are in a situation where we can't conceive an injury to our #1 goalie.

In recent years, goalies have become commodities. Instead of waiting the 8-9 years to develop them, there are some very good ones available every year at a low price. If you forget about Tim Thomas for a second, recent cup winners did not get a Roy-type performance to win it all.

The low return for goalies proves my point. Good Ds and forwards get a huge return while a goalie usually gets a 2nd at most. Only exception was the Avs-Caps deal and that was a huge mistake by the Avs.

Price will always have to try to live up to the hype because of his draft position and he will never shake the comparisons to Halak until he either wins it all or starts performing in must-win situations, neither of which he has done. That's a huge burden on him.

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Old
01-19-2012, 10:09 AM
  #200
DougHarvey
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
it would be about god damn time...

- missed the PO last 5 seasons
- missed the PO 7 times in last 10 seasons
- will miss the PO again this season, for the 6th time in a row
Yes but they were in the finals not that long ago.

Edmonton is an exciting team to watch witha great future. Our future is bleak. We do not have one superstar in the making among our prospects. We have Beaulieu who might be a top pairing D and that is it. Gallagher has generated some excitement but his ceiling is not that high. After that, we dont have much. We have complimentary players and that is it.

Which is what our team is made up of. Complimentary players. We need a star which is what has been lacking. Kovalev was our closest thing in the last ten years.

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