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Ex-Blackhawk Watch 2011-12

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Old
01-19-2012, 01:17 PM
  #51
Hawkaholic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marotte Marauder View Post
Did I Rip Van Winkel it and miss a bunch of Carcillo goals? I've got him with 6-11-17 over his last 85 games.
Damn, for some reason I saw 9 goals, not assists. I swear I looked 2 or 3 times and saw 9 goals each time. My bad.

Aside from the scoring, which we don't really need any more of anyway....Carcillo still brought just as much as Brouwer in every other aspect of the game.

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01-19-2012, 01:28 PM
  #52
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Vorobiev is having a little bit of down year defensively for Khanty-Mansiysk Yugra

Still feel Hawks gave up on him too early and that Yawney screwed around with him too much in 06. Vorobiev was singled out and punished for every mistake while vets/other rookies didn't get same treatment

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Old
01-19-2012, 08:02 PM
  #53
Marotte Marauder
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Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
Damn, for some reason I saw 9 goals, not assists. I swear I looked 2 or 3 times and saw 9 goals each time. My bad.

Aside from the scoring, which we don't really need any more of anyway....Carcillo still brought just as much as Brouwer in every other aspect of the game.
C,mon, every measurable metric has Brouwer well ahead of Carcillo.
Projected:
points 44/32
PIMs 50/240
Hits 280/220

But in your view, Carcillo has performed better than Brouwer? Yikes!

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01-19-2012, 11:14 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marotte Marauder View Post
C,mon, every measurable metric has Brouwer well ahead of Carcillo.
Projected:
points 44/32
PIMs 50/240
Hits 280/220

But in your view, Carcillo has performed better than Brouwer? Yikes!
Carcillo has filled the role better than Brouwer did when Brouwer was here...that's what I'm saying. Better agitator, more effective hitter, and was able to slot in the top 6 at times and not look completely out of place...for quite a bit cheaper.

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01-20-2012, 02:04 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
Carcillo has filled the role better than Brouwer did when Brouwer was here...that's what I'm saying. Better agitator, more effective hitter, and was able to slot in the top 6 at times and not look completely out of place...for quite a bit cheaper.
Brouwer only look out of place last season... the season of which he played with an injured shoulder for half the season.

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Old
01-20-2012, 07:14 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
Pretty sure from the start I have been talking about line structure and how Brouwer never filled a decent role in our top 6. Brouwer was never a good line component for the 1st, 2nd or 3rd line in Chicago.
It is about line structure, but clearly you don’t think a team needs any physical presence in their line structure up top to be successful. You place no value on such players:

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Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
Salary doesn't much matter when you have a ton of cap space.
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Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
Foligno is on pace for roughly 50pts in his first year playing with a competent offense. Brouwers best year (this year) and he is on pace for 44. Foligno's defensive game is better too. If he makes more than Brouwer, I want no part of him either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
Brouwer never got high minutes here, and was one of the players that you didn't want to see on the ice come playoff time (below avg defense, limited offense) I don't care how many hits he had, or how many goals he scored.
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Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
He (Ladd) is not a 3rd liner in the NHL. Like Bolland, he is definitely a top 6 forward that would be used on our 3rd line because of the way our lines shake out.
I couldn’t disagree with you more. The thought of not having any physical presence upfront in our top six line structure is disconcerting to say the least. If not Brouwer, I’d love to have Foligno at Brouwer’s salary, but you think Foligno would be overpaid. Ladd would be far better than any LW we have not named Sharp, on the top line if Sharp plays center in the playoffs, but you have him as a 3rd-liner on this team behind Stalberg! The latest flavour of the month (and I like Stalberg) who replaces previous flavours of the month Frolik and Bickell. Some of youse people place waaaay to much emphasis on a small number of games.

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Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
We are 1st place in the entire NHL. Safe to say Q is getting what he needs out of everybody.
Safe to say you are getting your NHL standings from the same source you got Carcillo’s goals from.

Coach Q had the most expensive top-four blue-line in the NHL last year including the reigning Norris holder, three star forwards who are also good to very good defensive players, yet we looked like crap defensively. Nashville got more mileage out of one goalie and two defencemen to name just one team who got results above and beyond their talent-level while we played disorganized all season long.

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Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
Not really, I believe we had the top PP in the league without Campbell getting significant minutes. Why wreck something that is working?
What exactly are you wrecking? Campbell was not in competition with Keith and Seabrook. You don’t have to get rid of an upper echelon defenceman just because you have two others. A d-man with a proven track record spanning several seasons in Buffalo, San Jose, and Chicago (and predictably in Florida now) would’ve ensured that the ‘Hawks have the best blue-line in the NHL.

Instead, the Bowman/Quenneville brain-trust decided to give that up. They didn’t give up a middle-of-the-pack offensive d-man, they gave up an upper-end one who didn’t have the stats here only because we had the good fortune of having Keith and Seabrook who could also play a lot of minutes. It’s like saying we can give up Hossa because we already have Toews and Kane.

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Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
Didn't they go to the cup final? A place where we would love to go this year? Who cares what we did to them, we clearly have their number. Look at what they did to 2 other teams we will have a hard time beating (Nashville, San Jose).
You have the same short-term outlook on teams as you do with flavour of the month players. Vancouver makes it to the Stanley Cup Final for the first time in 17 years, so what?

We can merely be in the mix by playing Toews-Bolland 1-2 at center while Vancouver has Sedin-Kesler, San Jose has Thornton-Pavelski (or Couture), L.A. has Kopitar-Richards, Detroit has Datsyuk-Zetterberg. We’ll win some, lose some, and maybe go to the Finals once every five years. There are no matchup advantages for any team.

It’s Toews vs. Kesler and Bolland vs. Sedin either way. Those are the matchups the coaches will strive for.

Remove Sharp from the wing, put him at center with Hossa, and who does Vancouver have to match? The Cody Hodgson line? L.A. has the Stoll line? The Sharks have the Handzus line?

We are the only team in the West that can have that potent of a 3rd line. It doesn’t matter what Vancouver did last year. None of the match-ups of the other teams include a 3rd line like we could have.

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Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
It's still a lot of money for a guy who would be on our 4th line when the team is completely healthy.
If Brouwer were on Boston, he’d be redundant. Boston has plenty of physicality up front. The Blackhawks do not have a single top six forward of the ilk of Lucic or Horton. Or Kesler or Clowe. Or Byfuglien and Ladd. Not recognizing the value of Brouwer given the lack of jam in this mix of forwards was another error in judgement IMO of Bowman/Quenneville.

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Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
Here you go again giving stats when it's not all about stats when it comes to structuring your top 6.
I wouldn’t expect you to like them because it makes your hatred for Brouwer look irrational at best. When 24 teams last year couldn’t go more than 4-deep in 20-goal scorers, it makes you look foolish to characterize Brouwer’s 20 goals as that of a 4th liner. When 23 teams couldn’t fill their top six with six 40-point scorers, it makes you look foolish to characterize Brouwer’s 40 points as that of a 4th liner.

Trying to use stats to suggest Ott, Neil and Carcillo have offensive parity with Brouwer doesn’t help you either.

You prefer to make blanket statements like Troy Brouwer being the worst defensive hockey player ever witnessed in the NHL while any other player in the conversation is at the very least defensively sound if not Selke worthy, and well, we just have to take your word for it.

We can measure how much a coach trusts a player in one specific defensive situation, penalty-killing, where the only objective is to prevent a goal from being scored against you for two minutes. It’s not the be-all, end-all of defensive hockey, but it is a part. In your attempts to paint Brouwer as the Great Satan of defensive hockey, you’re not going to like these stats either.

Hanzal has the most PK ice-time per game at 2:00 , ranking 3rd amongst Phoenix forwards in that role, while Callahan is the 2nd-most used forward on the PK for the Rangers, logging 1:44 of ice-time per game. The complete table:

Player Team PK Time Team Rank
1. Hanzal Phoenix 2:00 3
2. Callahan NY Rangers 1:44 2
3. Backes St. Louis 1:37 4
4. Ott Dallas 1:35 4
5. Brown Los Angeles 1:33 6
6. Lapierre Vancouver 1:26 5
7. Brouwer Washington 1:23 4
8. Clutterbuck Minnesota 1:20 6
9. Martin NY Islanders 1:16 6
10. Doan Phoenix :47 6
11. Foligno Ottawa :15 10
12. Neil Ottawa :00 -
--   

It appears that the discrepancy between Brouwer's defensive abilities compared to other players of his ilk where they can be measured with something more than your hearsay are greatly exaggerated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
I will take a guy (Ott) who scores 10 less points and is sound defensively and plays C, over a guy who scores 10 more points, isn't sound defensively, and plays the W.
In other words you prefer a 3rd liner over a 2nd liner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
He didn't strike fear into opponents like say Ott,
Quote:
Originally Posted by projexns View Post
Now you made me spit my Fruit Loops all over my computer screen
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
And that's probably what NHLers do when Brouwer challenges them to a fight or hits them.
LOL, you seriously want to compare Ott to Brouwer?

Ott has to wrestle mightily:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhkJWJcEwrc

to hang in with a player that Brouwer toys with:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DuRUouq2jo

Here's your boy Dustin Brown and Ryan Smyth spitting some Fruit Loops:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9ZMbw0Yq5s

Do you seriously want to compare Ott's dance-card to Brouwer's?


Last edited by projexns: 01-20-2012 at 07:21 AM.
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Old
01-20-2012, 12:17 PM
  #57
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I'm not going to keep going back and forth.

The bottom line is, Brouwer sucked on our 1st line, doesn't play C for our 2nd line, isn't good enough defensively to play on shut down 3rd line and makes too much to play on our 4th line.

Bowman and Q obviously felt the same way, and if you disagree with them, who have constructed a cup contender and top team in the league, then you are out to lunch.

You will say, "I don't care about the reg season." Well Brouwer did sweet **** all for us in the playoffs last year, and played the 4th line the year before that.

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Old
01-20-2012, 12:19 PM
  #58
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Who gives a sheet about Brouwer, we got Danault for him.

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01-20-2012, 03:04 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
Who gives a sheet about Brouwer, we got Danault for him.
And Danault is better, for sure?

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01-20-2012, 03:28 PM
  #60
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And Danault is better, for sure?
That's irrelevant.

We got a solid prospect for a guy who didn't fit our team.

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Old
01-20-2012, 03:32 PM
  #61
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that is right, but from what he said it's just not right. I agree with you that I don't think we would need Brouwer with his contract on our 4th line, but this sounds like Danault is a sure thing and will be (is) better then Brouwer

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Old
01-20-2012, 03:39 PM
  #62
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Mark Bell recalled today after 4 year hiatus.

Good on you Mark!

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01-22-2012, 04:31 PM
  #63
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Michael Nylander goes from Zürich SC Lions to EHC Kloten Flyers.

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01-22-2012, 06:32 PM
  #64
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Brouwer played a role here. Wish him all the best, but he wasn't a good fit in our top six last year. He'll likely bounce around the league as a third wheel top six type and put up steady 15-25 goal campaigns.

Glad we got a first for him, and replaced his role with an emerging Stalberg for a third of the cost.

A physical presence is needed, but you can get banging fourth line wingers like Carcillo for less than a million per.

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01-23-2012, 12:49 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Bubba88 View Post
that is right, but from what he said it's just not right. I agree with you that I don't think we would need Brouwer with his contract on our 4th line, but this sounds like Danault is a sure thing and will be (is) better then Brouwer
The 1st round pick was a no brainer as far as trading Brouwer goes and the fact that Bowman made a good choice (so far, so good, nothing guaranteed) makes it easy for me to forget about Brouwer.

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01-24-2012, 03:31 AM
  #66
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P.A. Parenteau

46 GP
9 goals
33 asissts
42 pts
-2

Never thought he would have this success in NHL ,, Truly amazed to be honest

Seems to be thriving in Long Island

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01-24-2012, 11:22 AM
  #67
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Yeah, PAP is going to be in the league for a long time, I was also surprised to see him with 33 helpers. 70 points doesn't seem out of the question.

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01-27-2012, 04:03 PM
  #68
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Radek Smolenak leaves Porin Ässät
Marty Turco signs w/ EC Red Bull Salzburg

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01-27-2012, 04:15 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
Vorobiev is having a little bit of down year defensively for Khanty-Mansiysk Yugra

Still feel Hawks gave up on him too early and that Yawney screwed around with him too much in 06. Vorobiev was singled out and punished for every mistake while vets/other rookies didn't get same treatment
Yawney Don't remind me. That was easily the worst of the Hawks for me, when Yawney was HC, boring hockey, questionable decisions to say the least.

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01-27-2012, 06:06 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
P.A. Parenteau

46 GP
9 goals
33 asissts
42 pts
-2

Never thought he would have this success in NHL ,, Truly amazed to be honest

Seems to be thriving in Long Island
A perfect example of why you can't judge a player too quickly, especially a young one, which is a habit of a few people on this board.... and the main reason that I don't want to give away prospects that haven't blossomed in 1 or 2 years of pro hockey. Obviously, you can't keep them all and some difficult decisions will have to made, but you can't succumb to the first deal that comes around neither.

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01-27-2012, 09:15 PM
  #71
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Parenteau was given up on by three teams (Anaheim, Chicago, NY Rangers) and played five NHL games in his first six years of pro, so it's not like the Blackhawks were the only team that didn't think he was ever gonna do anything.

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01-27-2012, 10:26 PM
  #72
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The same goes for Matt Moulson as well.

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01-28-2012, 01:37 AM
  #73
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Pittsburgh was going to sign Moulson, but GM Craig Patrick was fired around that time. The new guy, Ray Shero, didn't know about Moulson and they let him go. LA signed him for the minors, let him go, guessing he was just a minor leaguer. The Islanders signed him to a cheap contract to fill our their roster. I doubt they thought he could score 80 goals in 2.5 years.

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01-28-2012, 02:16 AM
  #74
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How does talking about Brouwer go to Danault who's not even in the NHL? That's so irrelevant to even bring that up considering he's not even helping our team at the moment anyways

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01-28-2012, 06:50 PM
  #75
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How does talking about Brouwer go to Danault who's not even in the NHL? That's so irrelevant to even bring that up considering he's not even helping our team at the moment anyways
Because those who want Brouwer and his horrid game back on Hawks obviously didn't want a first rounder for him (Which was overpayment for Brouwer)

Brouwer and Danault are forever linked because Hawks decided to not give Brouwer money for his game and took 1st rounder over keeping him

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